These are worthwhile interviews to listen to if you want to understand NPD. It will give you some perspective on how a person diagnosed with NPD sees the world, his relationships and family.
The contrast between the man that The Little Shaman Healing interviewed and the one I interviewed is that the former was more of a target of abuse in his family of origin, whereas the latter largely played an observer role and is a golden child.
Both of them are in counseling (which is extremely rare -- in other words, don't expect someone who displays symptoms of NPD to go to counseling and become enlightened about anything). That they are both in counseling says something about their wanting to understand their condition, and why they are living with that condition. That is to be applauded. I think both men have some inkling that the rest of the population does not think the way they do, or act the way they do, though they think that anyone is capable of it if pushed too hard. In contrast, those who have NPD that never set foot in a psychologist's office, usually think that others conduct themselves in the world as they do (narcissists are known for projection, perspecticide and erroneous blaming which makes their understanding of anything beyond their own feelings and thoughts extremely compromised). In counseling, they both learned that NPD was developed as a defense mechanism against parental abuse (in particular, shaming).
As expected, the man in the following interviews grew up in a family where shaming of children was rampant. While there was no physical abuse, there was a lot of verbal abuse and emotional abuse. I suggest listening to the ones on his childhood first.
The four videos after the ones on his childhood are about how he conducts himself in his relationships. You can hear why he erroneously blames and abuses others (it is a pre-emptive strike so that he won't become abused himself). You can also hear that he does not care if he is accurate or not when he blames or abuses others. The pre-emptive retaliation is meant to control the other person from making, what he feels, the decision to strike against him. In other words, it is a show of power.
He decides that his impulses and his feelings about others are facts. In other words, he does not attempt to understand, or give the benefit of the doubt to others, or search for the truth. He assumes most people are out to hurt him, and that in order to keep from being hurt, he must abuse. When asked if it was fair to hurt others without proof that they were out to hurt him he said "Yes". While his answer is disturbing, it is also common for people diagnosed with NPD.
He also talked about his work life (that he doesn't like to work, preferring to delegate to others) -- also very common.
When asked if he could not tolerate the criticism of others, he said that he could not, that he felt it put him in his childhood state of feeling helpless, unloved and alone (this answer is to be expected, but most NPDs will not expose themselves to this extent, that they have a vulnerable frightened side since mostly they show the tough I-can-live-without-anyone side to the world most of the time). He said that he felt like a con artist, and that when people fell in love with his false self, he has trouble feeling good about it, that it causes problems and repercussions in his life.
The areas of the interview that are not expected is that he is quite aware of his true self (vulnerable, afraid, lonely) and his false self (grandiose, acting, pretending and abusive). He also revealed that he loved and cared about others, though he pretends not to in order to keep from being hurt. Most narcissists are deemed to be without any empathy, and many will admit to not having any empathy at all in interviews, but perhaps the narcissists who can no longer feel empathy are those who wear their false selves so continuously that they no longer recognize their true selves where their empathy might reside.
© The Little Shaman interviews:
Interview With The Narcissist: CHILDHOOD CONFESSIONS (Part 1):
Interview With The Narcissist: CHILDHOOD CONFESSIONS (Part 2):
Interview With The Narcissist: CHILDHOOD CONFESSIONS (Part 3):
Interview With The Narcissist: CHILDHOOD CONFESSIONS (Part 4):
The next are about his adult years:
Interview With The Narcissist: RELATIONSHIP CONFESSIONS (Part 1):
Interview With The Narcissist: RELATIONSHIP CONFESSIONS (Part 2):
Interview With The Narcissist: RELATIONSHIP CONFESSIONS (Part 3):
Interview With The Narcissist: RELATIONSHIP CONFESSIONS (Part 4):
I have a family full of NPDs, and this guy sounds relatively sane and thoughtful compared to them. I have never known any of them to self reflect about ANYTHING, ever! All they want to do is to argue, argue, argue, all day long, and insist that they are right about everything and that everyone else is wrong! Part of the arguing is telling others what to do! They can't live without that! They tell others not to argue or disagree with them when they are the culprits of arguing and disagreeing! I guess that is about them trying to control people, right? There is not much variation from this in their daily lives.
ReplyDeleteThe guy in these interviews seems to be able to get out of this realm of thinking, which begs the question: can he really have NPD? Isn't part of NPD not understanding or caring what you are doing to others?
Hi Anonymous,
DeleteSome NPDs are lighter on the narcissistic scale than others (i.e. not full-blown or full scale). The most common trait among all NPDs is entitlement and the pathological need to control others.
The inability (or refusal) to self reflect has to do with shaming, in one way or another. NPDs live with a lot of self-shame. They also shame others a lot as an aggressive measure and to take the focus off of their own shame. And they grew up listening to, or being the recipient of, a lot of shaming.
"Isn't part of NPD not understanding or caring what you are doing to others?" -- yes, but in varying degrees, and depending on how they are relating to shame in themselves, and how aggressively and impulsively they shame others. If they spend every moment of their waking lives blaming, blame-shifting, projecting and shaming others, there is no hope for self reflection.
The ability of both people in a relationship to self reflect is an absolutely essential ingredient in having an emotionally healthy relationship.
Just listened to this series of interviews. I have sympathy and respect for this man. My takeaway as I'm listening to this is that, my God, all this fuss over narcissism and it just boils down to people being stuck at the young child stage of ages 3-5. They were never given the basic parenting (discipline plus support) and are stuck for life at the emotional and psychological age of a very young child. We're hearing a child explain it's feelings and thinking the way no toddler could ever articulate. Stuck, that is, unless therapy and hypnosis can re-wire the brain. Is it possible to "parent" oneself as an adult? Or do humans miss the boat if that "wiring" didn't get installed by parents/environment during the critical ages of 3-5? I'm struck by the selfishness, projections, black white thinking, responsibility avoidance tantrums. This exactly how very small children (toddlers) behave and think before the parents discipline them out of it. Consequences for actions, responsibility (even for one's own emotions, no ability to self-soothe), hence the constant need for external validation. These are just folks tragically stuck at the development of a toddler. The man above sounds far more self-aware and enlightened than most. Either he was light on the scale, or years of therapy have indeed helped bring some awareness. I wonder if going off to some type of discipline camp or adulting camp would be more effective than talk therapy. It seems that consequences for behaviors needs to be paramount. Over and above understanding the effects of one's behaviors. If they behave like children, would a treatment program that treats them like children, i.e. doles out swift consequences the way a parent should have, be more helpful? A combination of hard core discipline with therapy and hypnosis. They need to re-wire their brain, their thinking, their attitude out of childhood and into a state of adulthood. That is no easy feat. Something separate I didn't see addressed is the sadistic enjoyment of torturing and bullying others that seems to be a part of most narcissists, or perhaps that only applies to those with a touch of psychopathy? That is something a bit different and unexplained by the stuck in childhood theory. Notice that they only target the "nice" guys, the most vulnerable females, the most loyal or hard working non-combative folks, softest targets where they are most assured of getting away with it without backlash or consequence. They never go after someone with more or equal power to them. They never go after the vicious, the selfish, the demanding ones. It's the opposite they target. There is something sadistic and more than a little creepy going on there. I don't understand what the appeal is of torturing a soft vulnerable target that doesn't fight back. Why would this give them pleasure? Can anyone explain that? It's like torturing a child or a defenseless kitten. WHY? I would feel anguish and panic if I witnessed such acts. But for them, they would do it with a grin, and walk away laughing. What is going on there? It's clear that they do it because they like it, and it's addictive for them...but WHY is that so? Why would bullying and torturing those who can't fight back be pleasurable to them? Why don't they have the urge to protect the vulnerable? Or I suppose I could understand feeling nothing at all. Why the drive to hurt and destroy someone/something that poses no threat whatsoever and can't fight back? Are there any studies on this aspect of bullying.
ReplyDeleteYou hit the nail on the head that narcissism, is at its core, an inability to emotionally mature. Just about all of the narcissists I have had the displeasure to know steal: steal from loved ones and family, and steal in the workplace too. It's illegal, but at its core it is also extremely childish.
DeleteAbout half of them are also domestic violence offenders.
A couple of them can't be in relationships very long and have children strewn all over the place with different partners.
As for therapy, most narcissists do not like therapy, so it is hard to treat them. They either are court-ordered, or if they go in willingly, the initial reasons are over being depressed, or over a drug addiction (common), and get diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder while they are in therapy for these other reasons.
Most narcissists don't last because they are always trying to protect their grandiose sense of self. What this means is that if they sense criticism, they rage and argue with the therapist. It's no different than a doctor telling you that sugar is not good for your health (it's still a criticism), but narcs often can't take it and quit, thus many of them would rather sit in jail than to be treated and getting enlightened about the root causes of their disorder (unresolved childhood issues mainly having to do with growing up with either alcoholics or drug addicted parents, or abusive or neglectful parents, or parents who ignored their aggressiveness towards others, or Borderline or Narcissistic parents). If a child is rewarded in some way for bullying, even unconsciously or neglectfully by the parents, there is a pretty good chance that their child will grow up to be narcissistic with all of the traits.
Some of them have empathy in childhood, but continually sublimate it if they see that empaths are targeted for abuse. It's their way of saying "Being empathetic sucks, and apparently bullying works because I see it working for my parent, so I'm going in that direction." If you sublimate empathy, over the long term it ceases to exist because you keep stuffing it down until it disappears.
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DeleteTorturing soft vulnerable targets and getting pleasure out of it, yes, usually points to psychopathy as part of the mix. If they have sublimated empathy to the point where they no longer feel it, they are capable of causing great harm to others. If they feel guilty afterwards (as in it is making them socially uncomfortable), they are usually run-of-the-mill narcissists. These narcissists can be the types who say they are sorry, but then do it all over again, in a cycle.
If they have no remorse, and feelings of guilt are dead in them after they hurt others, it often points to some degree of psychopathy. It depends on the lengths they go in playing the victim. Let's say that they give their child the silent treatment for two years, but they go around telling their friends and anyone who will listen to them that their child is punishing them by being silent and refusing to talk to them. It's projection on steroids, maddening for a victim, and also highly unethical, and no one really wants to make up with them under those conditions. And let's say they were sadistic and did something illegal near the time they initiated the silent treatment like stealing, that points heavily to psychopathy being part of the mix.
The reason why some narcissists become sadistic over time is that seeing another person in pain means the victim might give into the narcissist out of desperation, and if they don't submit, pay a heavy price for not giving into the narcissist. Sadism becomes their way of telling how powerful and dominant they are in the relationship and even how powerful they are out of the relationship (i.e. "I even have power to make them miserable outside of the relationship because I damaged them so badly that they are still trying to recover from what I did to them").
If you see sadism, most are capable of injuring, murdering, and breaking the law (burglary, home invasion, kidnapping, stealing and other crimes) or prolonged threats and false imprisonment. If they have fantasy talk like "I'd like to wring your neck", "I'd like to leave you alone in a desert", "I'd like to tie you up", "I wish I could lock you up and throw away the key", these are usually to be taken seriously when sadism is part of their personal characteristics and narrative (this is for close personal relationships). The safety risks can be significant, especially if they try to contact you or stalk you after a break-up, or if they have ignored you for a significant amount of time and want you back in their life.
"Sadism becomes their way of telling how powerful and dominant they are in the relationship and even how powerful they are out of the relationship "
DeleteBut how powerful can they be if they only go after the weakest, must vulnerable, non-threatening (certain vulnerable woman, children, defenseless animals)? If they wanted to prove to be powerful they'd go up against their boss, the Man, a competitor on equal footing or slightly above their station, they'd go up against other men, excel at work, enter he military--I can can think of a multitude of activities for a man to pursue in order to feel powerful. Abusing the defenseless, those who cannot fight back, who are soft and vulnerable and the very definition of non-threatening--is not the way to prove you're powerful or dominant. It's the definition creepy and cowardly. I can't think of what could be more cowardly that abusing the weakest most defenseless amongst us and then hiding one's despicable acts behind a phony facade and manipulative lies. It's despicable, perverted and very, very cowardly. I don't think that the "they do this for power" argument is even close to the reason. They do it for pleasure. And it has something to do with PROJECTION. Projection and discarding of their own ugly intolerable (to them) emotions that they must purge onto others (preferably the most vulnerable and defenseless, of course) because they are weak, pathetic, and terrified of being caught for what they are. Terrified of who they are, internally, deep down. Hence, the need to project all of that inward mess inside themselves outward onto a defenseless victim. The softer the better, of course, because they are the most cowardly, weakest human beings that exist on earth. Pummeling their own shit onto "the other". They can't handle their own emotions, especially the negative ones! They're afraid of their own shadow and need to cast it off in desperation to the easiest target! They have to cast it out of themselves violently. Because they are weak-weak like a toddler in that regard- they only target those who don't stand a chance of fighting back, resisting, or speaking out.
These types crave power but are the most afraid of the powerful I've ever seen. Women and children aren't as terrified of the powerful as these folks. They suck up and simper to their superiors and show their aggression only to those safe targets, primarily children and the more vulnerable women. They go after the targets that don't hit back, that don't speak back, that won't threaten their phony public image. The cowardice of this is so astounding that I can't believe their motivation is to feel powerful. I mean, what could be more cowardly (and pathetic) than this? I honestly can't think of anything more cowardly. Blaming others for what they've done? So cowardly. So terrified of their own emotions and shame that they have to pummel it into the most defenseless? So cowardly! I see that they do it for pleasure; I see that they do it for projection satisfaction...but power? That seems laughably the opposite of what they embody by behaving this way. Their behavior is Pathetic. Cowardly. Disgusting. Power does not come into the equation. They may feel relief, perhaps. Purging all their demons out onto another. I cannot fathom that they'd feel power from this, however. It's exhibiting the complete opposite of power: it's pathetic, cowardly, despicable; the ultimate expression of their inability to control themselves, inability to handle their own most basic emotions that even a toddler has learned to master. One has to be very, very desperate and small to be capable of this. Let alone to do it repeatedly, as a pattern throughout one's life.
Hi Anonymous,
DeleteMaybe the word is "predatory".
The thing is, we have this in our geo-politics: Russia wanting to take over, control/dominate and terrorize the smaller nation of Ukraine.
We have this in the Turpin mother who used to eat in front of her starving children, who used to buy toys for herself and not buy toys for her children, who was free to come and go out of her house, but kept her children, even adult children in chains in the house.
We have this in predatory sex offenders like Jeffrey Epstein who chose as his victims girls under 16 years of age, mostly from poor families, and mostly from broken families. He even put some of them on his island so that they couldn't get away. And guess who visited him on his island? Royals, a US president, the rich and famous. So he was most likely trafficking these girls (the girls say he was), and yes, he had control and domination over them at all times.
On brain scans, narcissists do not use the empathetic parts of their brains (it doesn't light up on scans very often). That part of the brain is usually also atrophied. You can look it up. Most psychologists and M.D.s believe that the cause of it is either "insecure attachment" to a parent figure, or they grow up believing that being without empathy gives them great reward, and because of the lack of use of that part of their brain, that it becomes atrophied.
There have also been studies on the brains of the most intelligent among us, and their brains are bigger, but the part of the brain that is more pronounced is the part of the brain where empathy resides. You can look that up too - organ donors tend to have bigger brains. And, let's face it, most surgeons aren't going to be good at what they do unless they have empathy for a patient. Empathy also helps you WANT to help others, to heal, to deal with the truth of who and where people are in their struggles with health, with a symbiotic, mutualistic kind of understanding.
Narcs can fake these emotions, even empathy, but they don't feel it. That's why they can discard you so easily, and over relatively inconsequential things, and even incredibly hypocritical things. They'll say "How DARE you criticize me!" when they are incredibly hyper critical themselves, and even insulting towards you. They will say things like "Stop swearing you f#cking, sh*t child!" I've seen and heard both of these scenes in my every day life, and it is shocking.
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