As with every post, I have a "further reading section" below, and a video by psychologist, Dr. Ramani Durvasula.
Before I get into this method, it is important to know a few things:
* This method can be dangerous under certain circumstances
* Most narcissists want to bully someone in their lives, and usually pick certain victims for certain reasons. The kinds of people they tend to choose are people who are vulnerable or traumatized in some way, people who they feel they can brainwash and fool, people they are already in relationships with who are showing some resistance to their control and domination tactics (who they perceive as recalcitrant or rebellious), people they are jealous of or feel they are in a competition with, people who criticize them (or are perceived to be critical of them). This means that this method may not work in certain circumstances where the narcissist is dead set on bullying you to get one of their agendas met for power, control and domination, or if they are constantly trying to manage most of your actions and reactions towards them.
* Narcissists almost always want to escalate abuse, so this method may be ineffectual for those of you in a serious or dangerous escalation process (consult a domestic violence counselor or center before using it).
* They have very little empathy for others, and the darker narcissists have no remorse if they hurt you, and this technique, unless it is used slowly over time, and is imperceptible to the narcissist, can make them more enraged.
* Narcissists are highly resistant to changing their behavior, so this method will not change them; it is supposed to bring more peace to you however, but that is all.
One of the first ways that narcissists try to get into our lives is by love bombing us, or trying to charm or flatter us in social spheres. Some start straight in with giving us unsolicited advice (pretending to care about your issues and tragedies - this gets them into your inner circle, so be careful who you share your most personal hurts and tragedies with: this is how vulnerable traumatized people become their victims).
They build you up through flattery and idealizing statements. Alternatively, for those who are vulnerable and dealing with tragedies, they attempt to advise and heal you, then they bring you down through devaluation, destruction, and very often through discard.
Through the flattery, idealizations, and attempts at healing through advice, they expect you to be mesmerized by them, and to feel obligated to them. This is the stage where they over-advise, command, demand and get snippy if you aren't stroking their ego. If you don't spin like a top for them and adopt pleasing behaviors when they are insisting that they are the greatest human being in your life, they rage, devalue you and then do the opposite of what they did before: smash your self esteem and tell you, or show you, that you do not mean that much to them. They can act as though you don't matter to them at all, that you are dead to them (unless you will always be their "pleaser puppet", of course). They try to turn things around so that the relationship between you is 95 percent about them, and what they want, and only five percent about you, if even that. Most often they discard you after they devalue you, but they can also set about trying to destroy you, for not meeting their expectations. Then they smear your reputation and play the victim and move on to someone else they feel will be "easier" to victimize than you were.
Some of them try to get you back. But most often, going back results in worse forms of abuse than the last time. They haven't changed because they "lost you" even if they tell you that. Change takes a long time, and for bullies, a lifetime, but only if they want to change. "They are what they are", as the saying goes. Assuming you don't want to be swallowed back into another round of idealize, devalue discard, this method can work.
Some exceptions to the trajectory of constant manipulating and bullying with a discard is if they perceive that you may not be as vulnerable to attack as they originally surmised (like if you have more social support or financial hutzpah than they realized), they have been caught being abusive to you by others they wish didn't see it or know about it (where their reputations come under scrutiny), or if they feel you are competition for them but have superior connections or money (like in a workplace and where they might back off). In these cases, they are afraid of how having a bad reputation might effect them. In situations where they are more afraid of you than you are of them, the method works really well.
Most of us would feel horribly guilty if we exploited people in the ways that they do, but they don't feel guilty because their lack of empathy keeps them from feeling what we would feel.
Anyone who needs a victim, and anyone who pretends they are a victim (when they actually perpetrate abuse), needs to have special boundaries placed on them. That's where methods and techniques come in (like the DEEP technique).
It's better to know the beginning signs before we get into any kind of relationship with them, of course, since most narcissists traumatize who they choose to victimize. And there are certainly some signs, and if we are being targeted by them for love bombing, flattery, or unsolicited advice in the beginning, the DEEP technique can put up pretty strong boundaries to keep you safe from their manipulations. In fact, this technique is liable to turn them off, knowing that you aren't impressed by persuasion, and they tend to look elsewhere.
Beginning signs:
Charm: A great majority of charming people are narcissists. If they are a little too nice to you, and a little too familiar with you (like touch you on the arm, or whisper things in your ear), you may want to back away. People who have been burned by narcissists, put this first on their list as to who to avoid.
Love Bombing: Coming on too strong, idealizing, too much flattery, too familiar, stands too closely or gazes into your eyes a little too long. They push you to be "swept off your feet" and they are eager to impress you. The best candidates for intimate, long last relationships are actually people who are hesitant, reserved, somewhat shy, not bombastic, and not pushing you to get involved with them or have sex with them.
They talk about their exes as being crazy.
They often mirror your likes and dislikes. Most often this isn't genuine; it is to pull you in and make you think that you have similar minds, similar perspectives, similar life goals, similar morals, etc. Warning: psychopaths use mirroring even more.
Arrogant, Haughty, Bombastic: They brag. And they brag in ways that they think will impress you. It can be about how much money they have or travel they have done if they sense that you will be impressed by that, or it can be how many causes they are involved in if they sense that you are an empath. Arrogance is definitely a danger sign. People who are arrogant are usually highly judgmental, unempathetic, and entitled. Watch how they treat waitstaff at a restaurant. They are usually terrible about listening to concerns you raise. If they also start to give you unsolicited advice before they truly know you, or the advice is without considering your feelings, life goals, and the issues that are important to you, consider that they may be narcissistic.
Competitive Talk: How they were/are better than someone else at the same task. They exaggerate achievements and talents they have, or that they think they have (goes with the above).
Pushy: Narcissists insist they get their own way most of the time, except in the beginning they are pushy in some ways more than others. Ways that are obvious: pushing you into a relationship with them (trying to go fast), trying to make you believe you are "twin souls" or closer than you really are, getting snippy if you are holding back or reserved over giving them "the right of way" into your psyche or life, pushy about getting you to agree with them. People who aren't narcissists don't push you for information about your personal life, or push you into a close personal relationship. Also, covert narcissists, tend to share very little information about their personal life, but expect you to share everything. Don't share confidences with people who are haughty, arrogant, harshly judgmental, show-offs, pushy, who brag without the evidence to back it up, or anyone who gets angry with you because you aren't sharing everything they demand that you share.
Secretive: Narcissists tend to be secretive, and have done things they don't want you to know about or to see, but cannot stand being in relationships where others are secretive. They will terrorize you later on if they deem you have secrets from them. If you do find out some unethical things from their past, they tend to diminish them.
If you see a number of these signs in one person, the DEEP method can help you to avoid them, or help to fade out their attention on you. However, as I've said before, there are some dangers, and I state them in one of the aspects of the method below.
THE METHOD
The DEEP method is actually spelled D.E.E.P. and stands for "Don't defend, don't explain, don't engage, and don't take it personally".
Basically this technique is for denying the narcissist narcissistic supply and/or getting into arguments with them where they will demean, attack your character, call you names, deny reality, and turn it into a crazy-making conversation to attack, defend and exploit what you have to say to "win" the argument. And then afterwards they usually pretend to be a victim (playing the victim is all about an excuse to get sympathy so that they can attack you some more).
To make it clear, raging can be overt or covert. Covert raging is the silent treatment, interrupting, only considering themselves, gaslighting, stonewalling, punishing and is usually used by covert narcissists, although overt narcissists can use both.
However, if they are physical abusers, or they have threatened to hurt you (includes hurting you emotionally, socially, psychologically, and via blackmail, not just physically), or they are breaking laws, or touching you aggressively or roughly anywhere on your head or neck, or they rage in your face, or have sadistic characteristics, the DEEP technique could enrage them more, and you could be faced with a life threatening situation. In the video below, Dr. Ramani does not make mention of that, but from a domestic violence perspective, it is important to know this.
It is always best to go to a domestic violence center or therapist to help you assess the dangers, and ask them if this technique is best for you and your circumstances.
Also psychopathic abusers and abusers who have malignant narcissism have the same traits as the narcissists I talk about in this post, but unlike plain-envelope narcissists, if they hurt you, they will have no remorse. And they often get satisfaction out of being spiteful, vindictive, sadistic and breaking the law without getting caught. Often you can't tell whether they are psychopaths or malignant narcissists unless you know them really, really well (including all of the tactics they use to dominate and control you and hurt you).
The issue of why this can turn dangerous is that part of obtaining narcissistic supply is getting a negative reaction out of you. This can be crying, anger, shock at what they are doing or have done, fear, defending yourself, or pleading. If you don't give them the narcissistic supply they demand, or don't respond to them at all, they can get dangerous. This is why it is always good to know who you are dealing with and professionals who work with domestic violence victims will usually know more about the signs of danger than victims do (victims can also downplay what they are going through for a number of reasons: hope, cognitive dissonance, unaware of the love bombing tactic, and so on).
I personally prefer Dr. Carter's methods for dealing with the "defend" part of this method, which I go into in the next chapter.
So to get down to why the DEEP technique can be effective, depending on who you are dealing with, here are some of the reasons:
don't defend
If you don't defend yourself, which is what they expect to keep the argument and the trashing of your self esteem going, they feel frustrated. And some of them get nervous. When they get frustrated, they may keep trying to hurt you in other ways that they hadn't thought of just to see if you'll react to that instead, and you just stand there unaffected.
Some narcissists who are lower on the scale (i.e. who don't possess all of the traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder) may feel embarrassed that they attacked you and lead the conversation away from the direction of more attacks, especially if you have some clout socially, but others may escalate. If they escalate, you can always leave.
One reason why your defenses lead to more of their attacks is that they don't really understand how most conflicts are settled: by talking things out, by being thoughtful about each other's needs, feelings and desires and finding a way between yourselves to please both parties, by talking about resolutions to the conflict which often includes compromise (they hate compromise, or even the suggestion of it!).
Instead they view conflicts as "attack fests" (on your decisions, your character, your mind, your differences from them, your behaviors, and your self esteem). They also think that conflicts mean that they have to "win". Win what? Win you totally over to their perspective, win at controlling what you do (power, domination and control), winning at what their desires are and what role you will fulfill in making their desires come true for their life. So the DEEP technique is to bypass all of that, and by not defending yourself, you are not giving them ammunition to use your defenses for more attacks.
It is easier said than done. Attacks are pretty unpleasant, and you are going against the grain of defending yourself by letting them tear you to shreds as if you are an onlooker to it. In public this can be pretty unnerving, and in private it can be scary and denies you emotions by giving them free reign to have all of the unregulated emotions that they want to express, while you get to express none. It is a type of suppression which can cause trauma. The more oppression you receive, and the more suppressive your responses are, the more trauma symptoms you will have. So, that is the drawback to this particular part of the DEEP technique.
However, people who have tried this method say that they just go inside their own minds and dream of pretty pictures or something more than the unpleasant situation. Or they observe as a parent would: "My child is having a temper tantrum and I'm just going to wait it out until they calm down." Some people decide their perpetrators are "crazy" or "funny" for going off the rails over so much B.S.
So it depends on your countenance too.
Again, if you have PTSD, letting them go off the rails about your character and not defending yourself can be extremely triggering. Consider that this might not be the best relationship to put your energy towards instead. Or perhaps only see them in big crowds, talk about the weather and greatly limit your contact.
So it takes a person who is calm, cool and collected, someone without PTSD, like a comedian who is playing "the straight" role to the character playing the rage-a-holic gone off the deep end with over-dramatic displays and ridiculous reasons to become so unhinged. Even the silent treatment, the covert version of rage, is quite over-dramatic as it is usually over things that tend to be silly, or small, or just to drum up attention, like they don't feel they have enough power over you, and many of the reasons can even be more inconsequential than that, in the grand scheme of things. The silent treatment is easier to deal with, however, than overt loud raging with pushing, or screaming in your ear, for instance.
Dr. Carter's way is to defend yourself in these ways:
* they try to trash your self esteem or shame you in an angry cruel way: you respond like the adult that you are that you feel fine with the way you are, and that you don't plan on changing.
* they tell you that you are crazy (the typical gaslighting statement in just about every conflict they have): you tell them that you are perfectly sane and do not plan on continuing this conversation with them.
* they say: "You are so stupid! If you only did it this way then ---": you tell them that you are fine with the decisions you make, period. If they keep goading you about how stupid you are by not taking the road they want you to take, you keep telling them over and over again that you are fine with the decisions you make, with the way you are, and with the way that you conduct yourself.
and so on ...
They don't know what to do with that, and every controlling, manipulative tactic they use suddenly becomes "useless" to them. That kind of wall of resistance, and the results afterward, are better, I think, than being silent.
In other words, be a person of high ethics and intentions, and not let them teach you "behavior lessons" or talk you into being crazy and stupid (it doesn't make sense anyway when their behavior is often so abusive, threatening, raging, insulting and offensive).
The defense is always that you are okay with who you are and what you are doing (and if you have ethics, honesty and dignity, you can even be proud of who you are, and their opinions shouldn't effect you).
If you are strong and confident in what you say, and if you continue to hold the line on it, narcissists are more likely to leave you alone, or lose interest in you. So, in a way, I think Dr. Carter's method can work better to stop the arguments and their baiting you for arguments than not saying anything at all.
Instead of denying them the narcissistic supply by being silent, they know where you stand, and that it won't change.
The reason why his method may be more effective is because the narcissist can feel challenged by your silence, or egg you on trying to find holes in your armor of silence, whereas if you state good boundaries (that you are not, and will not, be effected by their rages and needs for narcissistic supply), they will quickly leave to find people who are more more willing to give them that supply, who are more vulnerable to being manipulated, who will listen and ponder their words and attacks, and who may even beg them to stop being cruel. Unfortunately we don't wish narcissists to dish out their poison to others, just as we might wish a bright star would not be swallowed up by a black hole, but they are predatory-like in their thinking, and the thing they need to avoid first and foremost, is you.
The rest of the technique makes a lot more sense (and I would prefer it was the "EEP technique", rather than the "DEEP technique"):
Your explanations are going to go through the narcissism mechanisms of their mind, and come out looking totally different, with negative connotations hanging from every part of it, than what you put in. It'll look like a confusing mess.
On the flip side, if they are idealizing you, anything you put in is also going to look idealized too:
They judge too much on character (and what they think your character might be) way before they look at your words and intentions, so whatever character they think you are, is going to influence what they think of your words to such an extent that it is also likely to come out of their understanding like a confusing mess too.
This cartoon, found on Facebook, says what I have to say in a pretty succinct way:
and an imperceivably tiny dot for psychopaths!
don't engage
This one makes sense too.
It should be obvious why you can't reach out to them to engage together to find solutions to the conflicts between you. If you have read my blog, they won't have any part of that, and they will fight tooth and nail from going down that path, and will instead fight dirty to gain superiority over you. They want things "just right for them" even if it means it is not right for you. So, "Let's work out our problems together" is just opening the door to a wolf who has wanted to attack you, and now has the chance to do it.
The other thing is that if you engage them, it means - to them - that you are weak and a glutton for punishment. Narcissists traumatize people with the exception of psychopaths. Psychopaths can take it because they have different autonomic nervous systems than we do. However one narcissist can even traumatize another narcissist, but it is definitely preferable for them to be in the ring with other narcissists, their heavy-weight equals, rather than with us.
Also they are control freaks, and they like being in the driver's seat making all of the plans about who will see whom, who should talk to which person about which subject, and how so-and-so should "behave", so if they want to see you, they will make it known, believe me. If they are getting narcissistic supply somewhere else, hope that they have met the most attractive seductive co-narcissist on the planet, and they do not come knocking on your door.
If you have tried engaging with them in a good faith effort to work out your differences, and they don't reply, you don't need to keep trying. Let it go unresolved if you can. Most likely it is because they only want things to go their way, including any truces.
It sets the responsibility of engaging on them.
It is the best procedure for anyone who is a control freak anyway.
So not engaging sounds right to me.
Narcissists and sociopaths want badly for you to personalize what they do to you and what they say to you (that it is "all your fault"). So when you don't personalize it, they tend to have a narcissistic collapse (note: the linked article is about "the collapse" as it pertains to public humiliation, however, not getting victims to believe that they, the victims, are at fault, can create a narcissistic collapse too). They haven't been successful in making you their narcissistic supply or scapegoat for rages and bullying.
If you want to make it clear to a narcissist that they shouldn't go to you for scapegoating and commanding, then not taking what they say personally will get them looking for supply somewhere else.
Anyway, how can you personalize what they do and say? Look where they are: probably pretty far down on the ethics ladder. Unless they have a lot of integrity, honor and self reflection, how can you take them at all seriously? And by the way, people who are abusive and unethical are usually very, very unsatisfied, grumpy, complaining and punishing about how other people act and behave (but give themselves constant excuses and breaks, of course).
Instead of taking what they have to say about you personally, why not become aware of just how arrogant, judgmental and prejudiced they are. Then you can decide whether being as judgmental as they are, as prejudiced and arrogant as they are has any warrant. And make it a years-long study so that you can take a breather from them talking you into things.
In my view, the only people who are worth listening to about "how you act" are high in morality, honesty and ethics, high in self reflection and understanding nuances of behavioral issues, are kind, patient and truly understand your point of view. They are not controlling, dominating, hypocritical, or have relationships where agendas are the primary focus.
I'm all for "not personalizing" when it comes to narcissists, and finding your true authentic self instead. Not being splashed with their views of you all of the time helps you find your authentic self too.
Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a psychologist and university professor has this video on the technique:
Some of the comments below her video
(or if you want to see them yourself on her You Tube channel:
click on video or see my choices below)
Note: each one is a different person:
* I think the narcissist must feel very humiliated when they can't rattle you or get you to react anymore. What else do they have when they lose that power over you.
* My therapist told me, "When he starts with his disruption, don't defend yourself. Just look at him and think, this is who he is." It took me a while, but now I get it. Thank you Dr. Ramani for supporting me. I couldn't do it without you. You've changed my life for the better!
* They're so textbook, so, we start a world wide search for someone who 'has not' been called crazy by their narc?
* As I watch dr. Ramani’s videos I realize I made so many mistakes and wasted so much energy while going nuts trying to explain and trying to defend myself in my almost 7 year relationship with my ex narcissist . It’s all so clear now...I was not crazy ! 1 month and counting the blessings !
* Living with a narcissist is like "living in an eternal kangaroo court" OMG so brilliant!
* I don't need the deep technique, I need the "don't start laughing" technique. It's just, ever since I've learned about narcissism and what makes it characteristic, I just can't stop myself from bursting into tears from laughing so hard when they go into narc mode. It's like they all follow a manual or a narc skript and they're so stuck in it that I can't help but laugh like an idiot. I was raised thinking that every single one of us is absolutely unique and then they're just all the same, LITERALLY!!!
* My mom is a grandiose narcissist. When I was younger and tired of dealing with her devaluing phases, I’d just stare at her as she was calling me names and accusing me of doing and feeling things I never did. I was grey rocking and didn’t even know. That made her even more furious. She used to tell me to stop staring her with my “snake eyes”
* Yup, I used to defend myself, try to explain so he could understand me and why I was hurt by his behaviours. I used to engage so we could sort out issues and it was personalised because our relationship was so important to me, I wanted us to resolve and learn from our fights. In the end, I was blamed for my reactions. He discarded me because he was “scared of my reactions” and that I “loved to argue”. Better yet, if we could have argued in his language “he would win and not me”. It was never about winning - for me, it was what I thought was for love.
* Nope, every conversation for these people is about winning. Life is a competition for them.
* I wish I knew this as a child. My mother accused me of terrible things on a regular basis and defending myself caused her to harm me emotionally and physically. Was terrible and scary.
* D.E.E.P. Seeing it, hearing it, practicing it, over and over (40 times and above, I think is the number of repetitions needed to make deep changes) will be such a useful tool to remind me over and over again to not play games with a narcissist. This reminds me of the book entitled “Games People Play”. Thanks as always
* Don't Defend, Explain, Engage, Personalise Deep = the authentic person's response to the narc's DARVO encompassing Deny, Attack and Reverse Victim Offender. Thank you Dr Ramani
RECOMMENDED: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - by the administrators of Health Guide.org
the recommendations are similar to the DEEP technique but have some additions and ways of thinking about situations you may encounter with narcissists (such as arguments, their fantasies, and exploits)
How to Handle a Narcissist - by Kara Mayer Robinson
RECOMMEDED: 8 Essential Strategies to Survive A Narcissist - Mind Well Psychology, NYC (Mind Well Psychology Center based in New York City at 80 8th Avenue, Suite 600, New York, NY)
Damn good article.
ReplyDeleteI am living with someone who is abuse where it is about his jealousy and imaginings of me betraying him. I am aware that I will have to leave him, but no method seems to work. He can blame me for things when I'm in the house for days and do not contact anyone. . am not doing all his suspicions.. Anything work for me?
ReplyDeleteSome methods don't work on all problems and in all situations. A partner who is super jealous, super suspicious and controlling, and super aggressive over imaginings, may not even know you are using these methods, because suspicions are living in his head so much of the time.
DeleteWhen you have issues of entrapment (which it sounds like you do), the wisest thing to do may be to go to a domestic violence center. It sounds like you want to leave, and that is the time to get a good safety plan, something that DV centers are usually very good at.
I will be covering jealousy in an upcoming post. It is very often part of the "why" they abuse.
Wishing you the best of luck. It is a difficult one.
The one aspect of DEEP I question: Don't Engage
ReplyDeleteHow does one manage this when you're locked in a shared environment with an abusive personality for a long period of time. Think: 4 years of highschool; living with an abusive parent, sibling, or family member; working with an abusive co-worker or boss. These are areas where you have to share the space for long periods of time (perhaps years) with a toxic presense that WILL NOT leave you alone. I know for a fact, that I all the disengagement and trying to disappear and be invsible and walking away I did - did NOT work. If anything it emboldened them and it spread and worsened to the point where that individual began to successfully get others to join in on the behavior. Disengaging does not work in these types of bullying/abusive scenarios (which are all too common). I can see how it work work great with someone you rarely encounter, or aren't in a relationship with, and can choose to walk away from at any time and have little to do with them. But believe me, in the above scenarios, you may disengage with the bully/abuser all you want --- but they will not disengage with you. "Don't engage" doesn't work in the majority of abusive situations. At least not in my experience nor in the experience of countless others. When you're a target, it seems that it doesn't matter what you do or don't do. They will keep on abusing you. If not directly, then they'll smear and gossip and attack in other ways. There's still a missing peice of the puzzle when it comes to successfully dealing with an abusive personality.
I agree with you. In fact, researchers found that in cases of school bullying, No matter how hard a victim tried to avoid the school bullies, the bullies would search for the victim anyway. And because they knew the victim was trying to avoid them, they sought them out even more. So many school psychologists used to tell victims: "Just avoid them" and in the old days, "Try to make friends with them. " Bad idea! And students were dropping out of counseling because it wasn't working.
Deletethe only thing they have found that works in schools is accountability.
The thing about bullies and bullying is that it is an aggressive act, and searching for a victim is also an aggressive act, and if you have an aggressive personality, and aggressive thoughts, and spend your time victimizing, you are going to find the victim. Predators stalk, even the human ones, or they engage in harassment (unwanted contact of an aggressive nature, and also against the law - for adults). I discuss that in the "Escalation of Abuse" post.
"Don't engage" in the context of the DEEP method, I think, is about not reaching out to them in the first place, and not reaching out to them to resolve an issue (letting issues go unresolved).
Most methods, even the gray rock method, have their flaws and serious drawbacks.
I think, in the long run, it is a matter of which method works best for you in the situation you are in. I personally like the gray rock method in work situations. It greatly helped there. Not so great in personal relationships where, for instance, trust has been established but then you realize they are a bully and that they are laughing at you for trusting them (sadism).
With narcissism so imbedded in the modern day, and on a big upswing, I think many, many of us have been tricked by the latter. I haven't found any method that works for those situations except "no contact", and in the severe cases, police.
"I haven't found any method that works for those situations except no contact, and in the severe cases, police."
ReplyDeleteAgree. It seems to boil down to those two options. Either flee and disrupt your entire life to get away from it, or take the police/legal/ sue them route. In other words, go to war. The same applies whether it is domestic abuse, a female being harrassed and stalked, or a small country being relentlessly attacked.
I keep searching for another way to successfully handle abusers, hoping someone will have found the formula for stopping abuse. The ideal solution would be if the surrounding people would speak up and hold people accountable when they see someone abusing another. But that almost never happens. Rarely, you get one brave voice speaking out; the vast majority look the other way, deny it, contribute to it, or just don't care. You see this dynamic in children, in families, in schools, in adults, in countries. All a bully really needs is its parents holding him accountable; or later, peers telling him to cut it out. They're cowards and super sensitive to status and social standing and power, and if they sense their peers won't support them anymore or are against their actions -they'd back down! It's just that so rarely (if ever?) will a bully's friends/allies/family ever confront them. Instead it's appease, appease, keep doing whatever to maintain a good time. The status quo.
I actually think it needs to start at a very young age, maybe even Kindergarten. Beginning with social skills instead of the huge emphasis on reading and math (which Waldorf schools have proven can be started in the third grade - and the kids can end up with the same skills in these subjects as the ones who start in Kindergarten or the first grade ... seeing as that is the case, maybe an emphasis on social and motor skills makes more sense).
DeleteAdverse social skills are being treated as "reactive" instead of "proactive" by teachers and administrators. A kid acts out and is "punished" - that is reactive. Proactive would be "'student A' is hurt by the name calling she is receiving. She has a lisp in her speech and too many people are making fun of her. How would you comfort her, help her or come to her defense?"
You may know I'm a teacher. I started at Head Start. There was a bully even in that situation, and I spent a lot of time talking to him one on one. My understanding of 3 and 4 year old bullies is that they feel out of control, and they blame their actions on it: they can't think "in the moment" about other kinds of reactions. They don't know how to look at other people as "not hostile" either (i.e. up to no good where it concerns them). There was a reason he was a bully, and it had so much to do with the family situation. So in order to get him to think proactively, before he brought damage to his reputation and hurt other kids, I had to work with him to get him to think about what he was doing before he reacted (and assumed what another kid was thinking - that is a big part of aggression too - the invalidations of other kids' feelings). I taught him in a storybook fashion first. Like: "Let's say your fist has a brain. Its brain perceives a nightmare, and goes after a monster, but then wakes up and instead of a monster, it is hitting a little girl, and she is crying -" And over time, he started to fill in the blanks of this story.
I like to think I stopped a negative trajectory. He seemed to be a more conscientious person, even reached out to other kids by early Spring. They flinched at first, and he'd cry, stomp around, clench his fists, and have a tantrum over their rejection. But I told him to keep trying, in a soft humble way, and eventually they accepted him by the time he left the school. Really, he just wanted to be accepted but did not know how to do it. Insisting on getting his way and throwing things at kids was not working for him. I hope he evolved past his parents (who were both in prison at the time and may very well have modeled this when he was 3).
Cont ...
DeleteIt is much, much harder to stop the "bullying trajectory" once they are in high school. That is what I found. I taught highschool too.
By then, they have been rewarded for the bullying and name-calling - and some kids think of them as great heroes for going against the "oppressive authoritarian atmosphere" of the school. However, because they are bullies themselves, they are also "mini-authoritarians". So you had to challenge their hypocrisies about that.
In those cases I tried to focus the rebellion on worthwhile causes, on issues they cared about. Re-focusing their energy on what is wrong and what needs fixing. I was a bit of an enabler to "quiet" rebellion, putting their drawings out in the hallways about issues they really cared about, even if it was about the oppression they were feeling when it related to the school. The thing is, even administrators have a lot to gain by understanding the kids who are living "school policies" and precedents. Sometimes things really do need changing (and only putting "the bullied" in therapy wasn't working - national research on this discovered the bullying got worse).
Ukraine, for example. I have no doubt that if China and India firmly stood against Putin's aggressive attacks on another country (which thus far is not fighting back, just defending itself at this point) he would back off. It wouldn't work if just India alone spoke out, because if a bully still sees a window of support they keep going. But jointly, if they just told him "no more," "that's enough" in a firm manner such that he believed they would turn away from him if he continued the behavior--it would stop! A bully wants status and power. He would not want to lose status and power with these allies turning away from him. That's an abusers worst nightmare. They need supporters. A bully values status and power only, and peers and allies are the only one's that can change a bully's behavior. Unless, of course one absconds their social responsibility in order to maintain a comfortable relationship with the aggressor. In which case the aggression continues to escalate leading to more war and larger conflicts. Kick the can down the road...and the inevitable confrontation will grow much larger and uglier. The longer an abuser is allowed to aggress unchallenged, the longer they have been getting away with it, the uglier it gets when society eventually does decide collectively that it needs to be dealt with.
ReplyDeleteLike the bully in the schoolyard, none of the trauma would have gone on and on had the bully's friends/allies simply intervened and said "Stop. Cut it out." An ally can say this without a huge conflict.
That's the only one who CAN. The one's in good standing, the one's the bully respects, or seeks status from, are the very one's with the power to stop the abuse. But as long as a bully feels he still has friends and supporters despite his actions, he believes he has a green light to keep on with the behavior. Nothing else affects them other than the threat/fear of losing status. It's the friends and allies that have most influence and responsibility to reign in their ally's behavior. Just as it's a parents responsibility to express displeasure and give consequences to a child's poor behavior. Very few are being responsible in this world. They're mostly out to augment their own power and status. There aren't enough Adults. This patriarchal society is one big dysfunctional family. An abusers allies/peers must hold him accountable. They're the only ones that can, short of the legal system or war. For example, if a man was abusing his wife and his FRIENDS confronted him, told him it wasn't okay...Of course, he would stop
I agree with this.
DeleteMy life-observations are this: When the group is not toxic, they go against the bully. When the group is toxic, then they let the bullying go on with eyes closed, or, in some cases contribute to it.
So the world stage is similar to the family group, or to the workplace group in these kinds of situations. Whether "the family" of world leaders is toxic or not does have some bearing as to the outcome of invasions and wars started by bully nations (a bully nation would be a nation much bigger in size, with more weapons, a bigger army, with more money and resources, and kills civilians - or creates a genocide, destroys homes and farms, destroys a nation's infrastructures like food, energy, medical facilities, its resources needed for its citizens to stay healthy and alive). It is a full force destruction and invasion, in other words.
Putin wants to keep the war going on a long time, trying to grind the people down into total submission, and is now allegedly playing with Poland (a missile landing just inside the Polish border).
The healthy (non-toxic) state of the world will decide the outcome (not necessarily Ukraine because of the bombed out state of their country). I'm confident that India and China will continue to retreat from supporting Russia if the rest of the world does the right thing, refusing to accept bullying. If they don't do the right thing, then all is lost.
Let us not forget that if Putin was a private citizen and invaded, bombed and killed just one Ukrainian, he would be jailed. And most of the world community would go along with it.
And even if someone invaded, bombed and killed just one Russian, they too would be jailed - and jailed by Putin himself.
No one is too special, or too powerful, or too entitled, NOT to be held accountable. We each have to decide how much strength of character we commit to in every situation that we come across.
Nothing is more important to that type of man than what his peers think of him. His image. If his friends put down their foot, guess what- he'd change his behavior. If the abusers allies, friends, family, don't hold him accountable, if they aren't responsible, then aggression continues to flourish. It would be so much easier on everyone if they would hold their friend accountable, instead of letting it get worse and worse and leaving it to society, the rest of the world to deal with.
ReplyDeleteWell, perhaps a bully only makes friends with others who are also motivated primarily by self-interest, greed, status, OR are spineless or easily duped. The types that will not challenge his behavior. I've seen Putin's allies carefully hint, suggest that perhaps now isn't a time for war. Perhaps. I've yet to see his allies bluntly tell him to stop. If it's not blunt, to the point, and firm a bully will not even hear it. It will be dismissed, if it even entered their ear canals at all.
The only time I ever saw a bully back down, was when another boy of higher status told him to cut it out. That worked! But how often does a bystander, a peer get involved. So, so very rarely. In fact, I've only seen it twice. It worked both times. This is the only thing I've seen effectively stop a bully immediately and without any conflict. All that is needed is a man with a higher or equal status to the bully to speak up and express that he doesn't like what the bully is doing. That's it. A sentence. Words. Spoken once. It has to be said by someone the bully respects or fears. Someone with higher status. It's unfortunate their aren't more people willing to speak up and be firm. Simply say they don't like it. Stop. That is all that is needed, but so rarely happens.
You said, "But how often does a bystander, a peer get involved. So, so very rarely."
DeleteYes, victimization can go without assistance, but not always. See post and my reply above.
Where bullying gets started tends to be in dysfunctional alcoholic families, toxic narcissistic families and dangerous criminal families. - Note: I put adjectives in front of all of these for a reason.
I have even seen a generational curse go from alcoholic grandparents (1st generation), to narcissistic parents (2nd generation), to criminal children (3rd generation). When an alcoholic family adopts a scapegoat (which many alcoholic families do), some of the next generation will adopt them too because it has been normalized in the previous generation, even when this next generation are not alcoholics themselves.
Usually when there are scapegoats, there is a lot of abuse and neglect. Children are seen as "the problem", while the parents see themselves as "doing everything right." That's the issue: when your small normal children are "the problem", that is scapegoating, and the scapegoating tactic itself turns the family into dysfunctional, toxic or dangerous, take your pick.
And by the way, most families don't scapegoat. However, since scapegoating is becoming a national pastime, and is even more prominent in our politics, and is turning to prejudice via the divided nation, maybe we have entered a period of "too much narcissism".
The reason why it often starts out with alcoholic parents or grandparents is because alcohol, at some point, makes its user disabled. The brain cells start dying (starting with the amygdala, which is where empathetic responses are generated), all the way to parts of the brain that effect motor skills and rational thinking. Inebriation means being disabled enough that you need other people taking on more and more of the responsibilities in the family - which turns out to be mostly children being held responsible.
When children aren't acting "responsibly enough" - being put into a parentifying role by the parent - they can become scapegoats for everything the parent is "not getting" from the child, even the ability to quit drinking is often blamed on the child. They begin to see the child only as a utility of responsible adult behavior and when they aren't, they get tossed or sidelined by the parent.
We know that narcissists also see people as utilities for their status, power and objectives.
In alcoholic parents, children will eventually be deemed to be responsible for the parent's moods and intermittent hatred of the child or children. Then we have entered the state of how narcissists see things.
And it is all being modeled for the next generation.
Any family that scapegoats children, and especially small children (which is when scapegoating usually starts), will have bullies in it. It may add up to a lot of bullies or some bullies. And there is usually a child that is afraid, is too scared to say anything (the lost child). That's why you may get people who don't intervene. And then there are the scapegoats who are often kicked to the curb in so many ways (at least emotionally abandoned and disregarded, and later abandoned as a whole person usually by adulthood).
The scapegoats are liable to stand up for other scapegoats who are bullied too. And that is where I have seen victimization challenged.
The whole world came together to push Hitler back.
Delete"I actually think it needs to start at a very young age, maybe even Kindergarten. Beginning with social skills instead of the huge emphasis on reading and math (which Waldorf schools have proven can be started in the third grade - and the kids can end up with the same skills in these subjects as the ones who start in Kindergarten or the first grade ... seeing as that is the case, maybe an emphasis on social and motor skills makes more sense)."
YES!
" I had to work with him to get him to think about what he was doing before he reacted (and assumed what another kid was thinking - that is a big part of aggression too - the invalidations of other kids' feelings). I taught him in a storybook fashion first. Like: "Let's say your fist has a brain. Its brain perceives a nightmare, and goes after a monster, but then wakes up and instead of a monster, it is hitting a little girl, and she is crying -" And over time, he started to fill in the blanks of this story."
DeleteThis is so creative. Have you thought about writing a children's book on the topic? I think they could really get through to children. Especially in the earlier years. Alas, this type of visual lesson-storytelling, no matter how powerfully illustrated (in books, movies, games, technology) will not get through to an adult. Believe me, I've tried with my parents. No analogy, no story, no example of this type of abusive/projective behavior will ever get an adult cluster b to "see" that this is what they are in fact doing. Unless, the technology was advanced enough to integrate hypnosis, or something else that could penetrate their ego personality constructs and re-wire new pathways in the brain, such that they could learn responsibility, learn empathy.
Anonymous,
DeleteI agree that by adulthood, the bullying behavior does not stop. Cluster Bs are so adverse to changing. There are exceptions, of course, but not many, and the ones who can change a little, are either not full blown (i.e. without all of the traits), or are Borderlines with a conscience. Cognitive behavioral therapy is usually the go-to therapy for many of them, if they can stand therapy (most of them can't).
Thanks for the suggestions to write a children's book!