What is New?

WHAT IS NEWEST ON THIS BLOG?

March 25 New Post: Silencing From Narcissistic Parents: "I wasn't allowed to talk about my feelings, thoughts and experiences, and if I tried to I was told to shut up or get over it."
March 21 New Post: A New Course on How to Break Through the Defenses of Narcissists?
March 2 New Post: A Psychologist Speaks Out About People Estranged From Their Family, and Narcissistic Abuse Survivors Speak Out About Suicidal Thoughts, Scapegoating, and Losing Their Entire Family of Origin
February 4 New Post: Part I: Some of How Trauma Bonds Are Formed with Narcissists
January 15 New Post: Do Scapegoats of Narcissistic Parents Get an Inheritance? Are There Any Statistics on This Phenomenon?
December 15 New Post: For Scapegoats of Narcissistic Parents: "I'm being invited back into my family after being estranged, and I'm pretty sure my parents are narcissists. Have they changed? Is this an apology or something else?"
November 3 New Post: The Difference Between Narcissists and Those with Antisocial Personality Disorder: Narcissists Feel Shame and Regret for Hurting Other People Even When it Doesn't Have to Do With Empathy, and Antisocial Personality Disordered Do Not
October 16 New Post: Why Shaming Your Children is Not Effective, How Narcissists Respond to Feelings of Shame, What You Can Do if You Are an Adult Child and Your Narcissistic Parents are Still Playing the Shame Game, and How to Start Healing from a Lifetime of Parental Shaming
PERTINENT POST: ** Hurting or Punishing Others to Teach Them a Lesson - Does it Work?
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Monday, April 13, 2020

narcissists, sociopaths and abusers: why is there so much lying, deceiving, rewriting history, secrets and false narratives?

Note: this is the first entry to this post and discusses studies on lying and deception, who deceives, and common lies and deceptions. I will be discussing the effects on victims and the expectations of upholding false narratives for abusive people in other posts.

In order to understand this post, most abusers tend to have Cluster B Personality Disorders (and sub-categories such as Grandiose Narcissism, Vulnerable Narcissism, Malignant Narcissism, and so on), or active addictions. Please see this post to understand what abuse is and who it is perpetrated by.

In many ways, this is a follow-up to my last post on invalidation and persecticide. That is because lying and false narratives wouldn't be possible without narcissists and sociopaths engaging in the on-going practice of invalidation and perspecticide.

I discuss lies, deceptions and false narratives in two separate posts, and use the same links for "further reading" in both posts. Each post will have different videos, however.


STUDIES ON LYING AND DECEPTION
AS IT APPLIES TO THIS POST

what we know about how easy it is to tell who is lying and who isn't

Studies have shown that narcissists and sociopaths believe they can tell who is lying more than the general population, that their perceptions about who is lying and who is not lying is superior to others. But actually, they are significantly less able to tell when a person is lying. Narcissists and sociopaths also falsely accuse more than the general population. They also invalidate other's experiences and feel "right" about doing so. They also accuse other people of lying much more than the general population.

Your average person without a personality disorder has a 50/50 chance of deciphering whether they are being lied to or not. 

Therapists, police officers and judges often feel they are best at being able to decipher lies too, but it is still only a 50/50 chance.

Where there is a slight advantage in being able to tell whether a person is lying is in people who have pronounced extroverted qualities; i.e. people who spend an extraordinary amount of time relating to others and to the public, who do not feel comfortable alone (i.e. become anxious and vulnerable), who are described as friendly, outgoing and "sunny". These people tend to be community and family oriented too. Note: sociopaths, psychopaths and narcissists can also be extroverts, but the difference here is that they are not usually described as "sunny" because they criticize others, make fun of others, try to dominate others in conversation and decision-making and they try to hurt others. With sociopaths, psychopaths and narcissists there is an underlying darkness, grandiosity, persuasion, and sometimes intimidation, where as your typical extrovert (the one who has no personality disorder) tends to talk well of people, and indeed almost all people. Why they have an uncanny ability to better decipher who is lying and who is not compared to others may simply have to do with being in the presence of others a lot, as well as being interested as to who others are. Some examples of typical extroverts would be Tom Hanks, Oprah, Bob Hope and Rosie O'Donnell. Some fictional characters who are extroverts who tell constant little white lies would be Robert Petrie of The Dick Van Dyke Show, Frankie Heck of The Middle, Louise Jefferson and Edith Bunker in All in the Family, Rachel Green of Friends and Leverne DeFazio and Shirley Feeney of Laverne and Shirley.

why are narcissists and sociopaths quite a bit less
capable of being able to tell who is lying and who is not

Several theories exist (shortened version):

On narcissists:

* the narcissist feels threatened in terms of their value to or dominance over another person: In this instance, the narcissist's natural proclivity would be to gain power and control (or to win something) over another person. If the narcissist feels "less than" someone else in terms of importance, stature, power, control, intelligence and sanity, they are likely to shame the other person, whether publicly or privately. When narcissists are exerting a lot of shame tactics on someone, or feeling an overwhelming amount of shame themselves, they are also likely to devalue that person. An aspect of devaluation includes "believing" that the other person is lying.

* the narcissist feels most comfortable with flatterers and sycophants: this might mean that the narcissist would tend to "believe" that the person doing the flattering and fawning is a truth-teller.

* the narcissist feels most comfortable with people who are blindly loyal: this might mean that the narcissist would tend to "believe" that the person who is "showing" the most loyalty to them (whether the loyalty is fake or real) is a truth-teller. However, King Henry VIII, who was most likely a malignant narcissist accused his most loyal sycophants as being the least loyal, especially later in life, so "most loyal" is not always a fixed perception in their minds. 

On sociopaths:

* the sociopath has grown up in an environment where a lot of lying and unethical behavior has taken place: this would mean that he perceives that people lie most of the time, and therefor cannot feel he can rely on someone telling him the truth. He concludes that people are lying most of the time.

On both narcissists and sociopaths:

* Both narcissists and sociopaths rely too heavily on these things to tell who is lying and who is telling the truth:
     Note: all of these have been deemed to be unreliable factors in being able to tell who is lying (discussed further in the post with sources), but narcissists and sociopaths tend to put a great deal of stock in them regardless: tone of voice, facial expressions, hostility, averted gaze, rolling eyes, anxiousness at being confronted or interrogated, defensiveness (I have put up more links to professional resources and studies about this on my post about punishments over facial expressions, vocal tones and glances).
     Note: all of these have been deemed to be unreliable in being able to tell who is telling the truth, but narcissists take these into consideration more than the rest of the population: an air of confidence, seeming to be sincere, seeming to be generous or kind, a "take charge" personality, overly assuring, seeming to be respected by others, seeming to be thoughtful.
     Narcissists and sociopaths tend to rely on these belief-based perceptions of theirs quite a bit more often than the general population, which is one reason, when they are committing crimes, they can be caught by investigators posing as "one of them".   

* Part of being able to tell who is lying and who is telling the truth means, for both narcissists and sociopaths, that they will be perceiving lies as the truth, and the truth as lies more than the general population

what we know about who lies the most

People who lie the most tend to be people with high levels of Cluster B personality traits. The people who lie the most out of the Cluster B spectrum tend to be sociopaths, psychopaths and narcissists with some Antisocial Personality Disorder traits (malignant narcissists).

People who lie the least tend to be empaths, i.e people who have pronounced empathetic qualities.

Some active addicts can lie quite a bit too. They tend to do it in stages, according to how long they have been an addict. In the beginning they may lie about whether or not they have "used" (or in the case of active alcoholism, whether they have been drinking, and how much they have been drinking). Then it tends to graduate to other issues in their lives, where they might tell others how their kids are doing (even if they have not seen their kids in years), and then they can get to a point where they adopt false narratives for absolutely everything that is going on in their life. 

what we know about the difference between what sociopaths and narcissists
lie about and what the general population lies about (shortened version)

Narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths tend to lie to hurt others, to make people feel bad, to make people feel "ashamed" or "different" or not part of "their tribe" or "their ranking in the pecking order", to make people feel sorry for them, and to redirect fault (when they are at fault) on to others. Studies have shown that people with these kinds of personality disorders lie in this way, on average, at least three times a day or more. 

People without personality disorders lie for the opposite reasons: not to hurt anyone, not to damage another person's self esteem, not to make someone feel bad or unwanted or "not beautiful" - what we would describe as white lies. For instance, another person asks you if you like their outfit, but you say "yes" even though you don't like it. You do it so that it doesn't hurt them or break their self esteem - this would be an example of a white lie. Studies have shown that most average, normal, working people tell one white lie a day, or every other day.

Empaths tend to tell white lies when they feel bad. In other words they may say they are "fine" when they actually feel hurt, bad, sick, injured, unhappy, abused, frightened, etc. so as not to bother or inconvenience other people with their problems. Child abuse victims may also lie about how they feel to keep safe and not trigger their abusive parent into a rage. You can probably surmise that narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths can be deadly to empaths.

Some of the studies I have talked about can be found here and below in the "further reading" section.

typical phrases that narcissists and sociopaths use when lying to partners

This comes from research by Baskin-Sommers, Krusemark, Ronningstam, Ford, King, and Hollender.  However, I am using a Psych Central article by Shahida Arabi who cites the same researchers in her article titled, 12 Of The Most Common Lies Sociopaths And Narcissists Tell, Translated Into Truth. She list the phrases as follows (but the whole article is worth reading):

1. "I would never lie to you." (- my note: very common and typical of sociopaths)
2. "He or she was obsessed with me."
3. "I was hanging out with friends." (- my note: when cheating)
4. "I am just so busy right now."
5. "It’s crazy how much we have in common." (- my note: a general sign of love bombing and mirroring)


6. "I miss you and love you. Just checking in." (-my note: a sign when they want to see if they can hook you into another round of honeymoon followed by abuse)
7. "Cheating is morally wrong." (- my note: they will say it to others, but not live it themselves)
8. "They mean nothing to me. You’re my one and only." 
9. "My ex was so dishonest and toxic."
10. "I’ve moved around a lot – I love to travel." (- my note: typical of sociopaths)
11. "I used to be a player, but now I am a changed man or woman. Now I want a meaningful relationship and a life partner."
12. "I am truly sorry, I really am. This is not who I am."



the most common false narratives that narcissists and sociopaths use

They inflate their IQ scores. Very, very common. Sometimes they inflate the scores to such an extent that it is beyond the scope of the test. They will also be competing with others in terms of how high their IQ scores are. If they are given an IQ test by a psychologist or psychiatrist, the scores are usually much lower than the narcissist or sociopath originally espoused. The narcissist or sociopath then tells the psychologist or psychiatrist that they weren't feeling well that day, or distracted. 

In general, they will be telling false narratives which put them in higher positions than others: that they are more intelligent than others, that they are more truthful than others, that they are more thoughtful and caring than others, that they are more skilled than others, that they are more stable and sane than others, and sometimes (if they think they can get away with it) more talented too, though narcissists and sociopaths typically are not creative individuals.

They refer to their exes as crazy, unstable and in need of psychiatric treatment. Malignant narcissists and sociopaths also refer to their exes as dangerous. All of this is pretty much a given because narcissists and sociopaths gaslight and use projection consistently in their relationships and once they are outside of those relationships too. 

When you are discarded by the narcissist or sociopath, you will be deemed crazy and unstable too.

If they have an estranged, or rejected, or ostracized child (which most of them do whether presently or in the past), they will say the same things about their child too: crazy, unstable and in need of psychiatric treatment - and sometimes dangerous as well. They sometimes say their child is evil too, especially if that child has been abused in the family system.

If they are a cheating narcissist or sociopath, they will be telling stories that their present spouses or past spouses cheated.

If you are a child who is being abused by a family member and told you are a liar by your narcissist or sociopath parent, the reason why they don't take it seriously and scapegoat you instead is because they are projecting that you are using a false narrative on them (that is because they use false narratives and don't believe others are not using them in the way they do). This is why you can't get protection, justice and validation for your suffering out of a parent who is a narcissist or sociopath, and why they reject you afterwards instead: because they assume all people are as unethical as they are, and falsely accuse people as much as they do.
     It is hard to understand, and many children in these positions feel as though their parents are just trying to hurt them by invalidating, excusing, scapegoating, doling out injustice, playing the victim, and rejecting, and that may be true in some cases since they really only care about their own pain and opinions, and how issues effect them and their reputations. But some of your pain may be mitigated if you train yourself to see them as projecting, then their insensitive horribly unempathetic responses make much more sense.
     In addition, if they reacted quickly without proper investigation, hearing you and others' out, then consider that projection is very, very likely to be at play. Impulsive reactions of invalidation, scapegoating and rejection over their child being abused is not something normal parents do.
     Also, perspecticide and invalidation are very, very common among narcissists and sociopaths when it comes accusations of abuse in the family, and especially anyone they idealize or have put higher in stature. This happens in business too, with narcissistic and sociopathic bosses where a person lower in stature brings a grievance or allegation against a worker in a higher position. If the company is mindful of laws, justice and keeping abuse out of the workplace (which they have a lot more to gain in terms of keeping the company running well), there will be investigations, interviews, other authorities will be brought in (like a psychologist, union president, mediator, lawyers representing each side, and so on), and a file kept with a written statement. However, if the boss is narcissistic or sociopathic, an impulsive judgement will occur and you will be encouraged to leave. In a really unethical businesses, you will be dismissed over a trumped up charge. It is very much like that in a family too. Many, many child abuse victims are also victims of trumped up charges. It is extremely common to the point where it should be expected in a family with child abuse in it.
     Narcissists are also so sure that their judgments and beliefs are "the truth" (even without a single investigation), and superior to anyone else's. If they do have doubts, they will be extremely sensitive to anything that might tarnish their reputations, and will usually try to "word salad" their way out of being wrong about their accusations, but that is usually only if they are being investigated themselves by an authority they deem can damage them. They won't just start showing mercy towards their child of their own accord.
      In general, their beliefs take precedence over investigations, truth, facts, others' experiences, corroboration, even if they weren't there to witness. This is not something that normal parents do.
     Also, when presented with your suffering over the abuse of a family member, they tend to take sides, and it depends on who they have put into which role, not on facts. This is also something that normal parents do not do.
     The problem for children who are in situations where they are being abused is if the parent has taken the side of the abuser (most narcissistic and sociopathic parents do), is that the abuse will escalate. If there is not another parent who will protect and mitigate the victimization, it can escalate very fast. The way abused children deal with abuse is to fawn or fight or disappear or avoid.
     Underage children will often fawn if their parent is abusing them in addition to another family abuser (to stop being abused or scapegoated by two or more people). But in the process they are blackmailed into denying or ignoring the truth. So children in this position can, and do, invalidate their parent for pushing false narratives. The abuse will usually escalate, so that eventually they will have no choice but to leave their families.
     If you are hostage (still underage), fighting brings more danger.
     If you disappear, you are without a family, and many child abuse victims take that route eventually and reason that their families have either little or no value in terms of "belonging", especially if they have been marginalized and invalidated for so much of their childhood through abuse. They are especially likely to reach that conclusion if there are a plethora of false narratives where they were victimized.
     If you try to stay quiet quiet and avoid, it buys time, but that is usually the only advantage.

If they are unethical in other ways, or break the law, they will sound like salesmen, and try to convince you that they are the most lawful, ethical people that they know. If they tend to swear a lot, but are in front of an authority figure who could impact their life, they will appear as though they never swear. They will be spending a great deal of time and words on why they are upstanding, trustworthy people who always put other people's needs first, and never lie. If they are in business and offering services and give you a rock-bottom price for their service, this is another sign that they may be unethical. With small jobs, do not give a down payment. For large jobs, the standard is one third down, a third half way through and a third upon completion. Make sure you have a contract without small print that "taketh away" and that it is a standard common contract. It is always best to go with contractors you know, or that your neighbors know and have worked with.

The other very common false narrative is the blame-shifting maneuver: if they are cheating, they will try to convince others that their spouse cheated instead. If they stole something from someone, they will try to convince others that they were stolen from instead. If they lie about something, they will try to convince others that they were lied to instead. Almost all narcissists and sociopaths play the victim, and they usually do it in this way. 

While these are the most common false narratives, they will be telling all kinds of false narratives whether big or small, throughout their lives with the twist that other people are cheaters, liars, crazy, stupid, criminal, emotionally unstable and out for an agenda.

In conclusion, most of their false narratives are about showing someone else in an unfavorable light while at the same time trying to boost their own character.

future faking

Narcissists and sociopaths use future faking a lot in close personal relationships. Future faking is lying with a broken promise or a promise that never materializes. 

Common future faking:

* the narcissist (or sociopath) promises that if you send him to school, he will support you going to school or financing a business you want to start. The promise never materializes.

* the narcissist (or sociopath) promises you that since he has been caught at cheating that he will never cheat again, and that he is (and will be) one hundred percent devoted to you. You find out after several years he has been cheating the entire time.

* the narcissist (or sociopath) promises you that he or she will never abandon you again (they are known for abandoning their close personal relationships), but when you fall on hard times, he or she abandons you yet again (typical: read my post HERE about that)

* the narcissist (or sociopath) tells you that you will never have to worry about finances for the rest of your life, and in fact, you can quit your job and have a child. After you quit your job and you become pregnant, he abandons you for another woman.

* the narcissist (or sociopath) promises that he will make all of your dreams come true. But not one of them ever materializes.

* the narcissist (or sociopath) promises that if you attach yourself to him or her that all of your dreams will come true. In fact, none of your dreams come true, but the nightmares do come true.

I link a video below about future faking and how to not fall victim to it from psychologist Dr. Ramani Durvasula. 

blame shifting

Note: not all blame shifting is a lie, but it can be, which is why I have included it.

When it is in the context of lying, it goes something like this:

* They abandoned you, but they tell stories to others that you have abandoned them
* They hit you, but tell others that you hit them (very common in sibling abuse)
* They cheated throughout the marriage, but tell others that you cheated on them instead (very common in marital abuse)
* You tell them that you are hurt by them and they never address it, and instead they go into how much you hurt them instead

Blame shifting is so insidious, common and teflon-like when it comes to narcissists and sociopaths that you will often feel frustrated by the experience, like you are talking to a brick wall. If they feel cornered into recognizing culpability, they will just keep blame shifting until you are exhausted with the tactic. They use blame shifting to protect their fragile egos and it will take precedence over any truth. This is why you can't talk to them about anything of import: your feelings, your thoughts, your experiences, your dreams and what you are suffering through and from. The incentive and addiction to lie and blame shift in order to not be culpable of anything will take precedence over any bond. It is one reason why they abandon close personal relationships, and devalue/discard instead of working on them.

gaslighting

In gaslighting, the perpetrator is not only deceptive but tries to make you believe that the deception is the truth. The most common way they do it is to try to convince you that your perceptions aren't right, or that your mind isn't right (i.e. that you are crazy or stupid).

Gaslighting is a bit more evil because it is about playing with your mind and perceptions so that they can control the narrative, and control you. Some of the statements they use include "You are unhinged", "You are in need of psychiatric care", "You can never get things right", "You're too sensitive" (usually after they have provoked you to react), "I never said that" (even when they did). At the same time they will be telling you need to be isolated from others (or in a psychiatric hospital or mental institution) so that you do not make a fool of yourself. They will use any label and any tactic that paints you as "less than" when it comes to your mind.

According to Psychology Today article, "11 Warning Signs of Gaslighting" by psychologist Stephanie A. Sarkis, P.hD.:

Gaslighting is a tactic in which a person or entity, in order to gain more power, makes a victim question their reality.

She goes on to explain common gaslighting phrases and techniques in the same article:

They tell blatant lies.
They deny they ever said something, even though you have proof.
They use what is near and dear to you as ammunition.
They wear you down over time.
Their actions do not match their words.
They throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you.
They know confusion weakens people.
They project.
They try to align people against you.
They tell you or others that you are crazy.
They tell you everyone else is a liar.

In child abuse, parents who gaslight children use all of these tactics and more. Hiding toys in secrecy and then putting them back in the child's room is a typical gaslighting strategy of narcissistic and sociopathic parents. 

Others are listed in this Psych Central article, Gaslighting: How a Parent Can Drive a Kid Crazy by mental health counselor, Christine Hammond, MS, LMHC. The way a parent who gaslights is by doing it in increments, gaining trust and then taking things away:

Establish trust.
Push the boundaries.
Gives surprise gifts.
Isolates from others.
Makes subtle statements.
Projects suspicions onto the child.
Plants seeds of imagination.
Attack and retreat.
Takes advantage of the victim.


Gaslighting is a given when it comes to narcissists (and sometimes sociopaths too) and primarily done to people who they deem to be vulnerable to suggestion, vulnerable to being taken advantage of, vulnerable to someone taking over their lives via power and control, vulnerable to believing lies, vulnerable enough to accept lies because of dependency, and in general, people they feel are beneath them in terms of intelligence, sanity, stature and finances. This would include their own children too.

For more information on gaslighting, go HERE.

word salad arguments

Word salad arguments indicate a conversation that is about dodging, diverting, distracting, deflecting and blame shifting in order to avoid culpability. Narcissists and sociopaths are known for arguing with others about how perfect they are and at the same time accusing others of how imperfect they are through smear campaigns or slander. In some instances it is also about re-framing stories and experiences so that the altered versions make the personality disordered person look good or better than the person who they want to make culpable.

For more on word salad arguments with an example, go HERE.

making themselves look like victims

Covert narcissists (termed vulnerable narcissists) and narcissists with sociopathis traits (malignant narcissists) commonly try to present themselves as victims of the people who they abuse.

Not only that, but they use situations that they are guilty of. For instance:

* They tell others that you were giving them the silent treatment when they actually gave you the silent treatment (initiated it).

* They tell others that you are a narcissist when they actually have all of the traits of narcissism.

* They tell others that you broke a promise when they broke a promise and initiated the breaking of promises and commitments.

* And most evil of all is that they often tell others that their spouse was cheating on them for their entire marriage when they were actually the one cheating during the entire marriage.
Some things they typically do after the dissolution of their marriage because they had an affair:
After the break up with their spouses, narcissists usually have a quick re-marriage, affair or cohabitation with a lover  right after they have split up from their ex, so that is just one sign of many as to who was actually cheating, although some of them know that it looks suspect, so they cover it up by saying that their ex was violent or crazy and that their new lover was protecting them - very common - so the truth has to be achieved through interviews, adultery in the divorce papers, and other kinds of investigation, not with assumptions of who you might believe or who is more likable or sad).

Pretending to be a victim is a given when it comes to narcissists and sociopaths. It takes the focus off of how they treated the other person (they tend to focus on how their victims react to their abuse as justification for why they are victims). They hope it also gets them out of any self reflection or any culpability and puts all of the blame 100 percent on their victims (blame-shifting).

stealing

Many narcissists and sociopaths will try to steal any evidence that you may have which makes them culpable or looked at as "at fault", even if they are only "partially" at fault. They are very invested in 100 percent "victim-hood", so that even partial guilt is usually not acceptable to them.

They also don't want their sycophants ever getting news that they are to blame in any way so that they can keep blaming their targets instead for the state they are in.

You can guard against it by always scanning copies of documents and any correspondences. Send them to yourself (and let them live on the server), keep a number of hard copies on and off site, give a copy to your counselor and people closest to you, and if you are keeping a record on them with the police, take the documents to the police too.

If you share documents which show their culpability, be aware that they may become extremely retaliatory (yes, they are that invested in appearing to be a 100 percent victim - being a "believable" victim also makes it much easier for them to continue to be a perpetrator and putting all of the blame on you).

Many also steal things that mean a great deal to you (to hurt you), but that is for another post.

In general, stealing evidence is deceptive and part of lying because it tries to paint the truth as something else. If they cannot steal evidence it does not make gaslighting, fault-finding, harsh judgments and smear campaigns very easy because evidence has a way of countering it.

In most situations where evidence is being collected and tactics like gaslighting, fault-finding, smear campaigns and "getting people to believe" the narcissist's or sociopath's perspectives, expect that the narcissist or sociopath will no longer want to talk to you or have you in their life. You are too much of a liability to the image they try to present to others as "always more right than others, always more perfect than others, always more intelligent than others, always more of a victim than their victims". 

IS THERE ANY WAY TO DETECT LIES?

Note: body language has been proven to not a good indicator of a lie. Looks of shame can appear on the faces of truth tellers as well as liars. Shame can also be an indicator of child abuse or of being among many authority figures who got compliance with demands through shame. In the case of child abuse, the person was shamed throughout childhood, and not because he or she lied, but the shame became embedded in the personality. Shame can be an indicator of feelings of low self esteem and low sense of self worth. Also gaze aversion is not an indicator of lying either, and for the same reasons. Gaze aversion can also be an indication of feeling uncomfortable, of being shy and introverted, of not being comfortable with other people, of preferring not to be part of most conversations, and so on. So none of these should be used to detect lying. 

Lie detector tests are also not a good indicator of lying either. Anxiety levels can go up or down for a number of reasons. For instance, psychopaths tend to pass lie detector tests because they have entirely different autonomic nervous systems. The article I have linked to in the paragraph explains why they are flawed.

Since facial expressions and lie detector tests are not an adequate way to decipher whether a person is lying or not, the best way to detect lying is deciphering a history of lying, broken promises, future faking, using perspecticide and invalidation a lot in close personal relationships. Serial cheating can also be a sign, especially if pathological lying was part of it. An unempathetic view of the partner's suffering or depression over the serial cheating can be an indication too.. A history of lying is an indicator that someone has more probability to lie in the moment. 

This means you have to know the person fairly well. 

Keeping an eye open for inconsistencies to stories, exaggerations, their need for power and control, and how much they put other people down while aggrandizing themselves in the stories they tell can be some indications that you are dealing with someone who plays with the truth.

Because narcissists and sociopaths are vague when they tell lies, if you have any doubts, ask them to elaborate and give lots and lots of details. In other words, always encourage an extensive narrative where you have many details on record.

Some other signs:

* They tend to tell lies in a concise, simple and vague manner where possibilities are left open. There are words and options that are left open, so that they can be retracted or reinterpreted later on. Phrases like "might" or "may" or "I think so".
    They do not give too much information in a communication, staying close to the truth but with some deviations, embellishing stories without verifiable research or information, telling a plausible story but embedding it with the truth and lies in equal parts.

* They tend to prefer to lie face to face rather than in written or recorded statements.

* They tend to exaggerate

* "An assumption of power":  they don't have the power that they espouse that they do

* Fabrications: they make up experiences which are used to protect them and the lies they tell. For narcissistic people, the lies tend to be stories where they are either the heroes or the victims.

* They tend to operate in the world through "a life of concealment"; i.e. "secrets" and clandestine experiences. In order to keep people from knowing the truth, they will often pit people against each other (overly criticize, insult, smear campaign so that each party hates the other party, or is suspicious of the other party) and make up stories about others in order to hide the "life of concealment". Because of this, they also tend to have a private self and a public self, where the private self will cause embarrassment to their public self if the private self is ever leaked by someone else (which it often is). The "life of concealment" also means punishing or hurting others who have revealed "their private self".

* They practice lying to get better at it. They also try to memorize their made up stories. They also tend to feign feelings when they tell lies (gaining acting experience).

 * They tend to tell their children both blatant lies and truthful stories but embed those stories with lies so that they can see if they can win at:
     - the "lying game"
     - the "blaming game" (i.e. the child accepts the blame even though it is known to both parties that he is not to blame, that it is a lie that the child is to blame) - this is done to see how far the child will go to stay in his parent's good graces
     - to see how vulnerable and gullible to lies the child is
     - to see how far the parent can lie until the child will not accept a fantastical lie
     - to see if the child will protest if a blatant lie is told
     - to test the loyalty of a child if he is fed a great number of lies embedded in truths
     - to test if he can manipulate the mind of the child into hating his siblings or other parent through false narratives, made up stories, lies and half truths
     - to test if the child can be manipulated to do something for the parent based on a lie
     - to test the child's intelligence and ability to decipher lies and false narratives that the parent tells
     - to see if the child will agree to the parent "reading minds" or "reading thoughts"
     - to test how much rage, withdrawl of love and care, and threats the child will withstand from the parent to accept the lie as a truth 
     - to see if the child will agree to have a low self esteem based on lies the parent says about the child's character and intentions (where perspecticide and lying go together)
     - to see if a child is vulnerable to looking at his parent as "the authority" on nearly everything, even if so much of what the parent says is a lie
     - to see if the child will "go along to get along" with the parent no matter how many lies are told, even if the child is not worshiping the parent, but the child still wants acceptance enough to "go along"
     - to see if the child will uphold all of the parent's lies and never leak them to anyone (the "trust game" that abusive parents like to play with their own children)
     - in the case of infidelity, to see if the child will go along with the infidelity, the lies about the infidelity to the other parent, and the affair of the parent without a reaction or a protest from the child (another loyalty challenge game) ... also will the child normalize infidelity and disloyalty in such a way that it benefits the abusive parent?

As you can see, children are used as guinea pigs to see what and how much the narcissist can get away with in terms of lying, disloyalty, abuse, affairs, expecting the child to uphold lies without feeling anything contrary to what the parent wants the child to feel, keeping the parents lies from leaking, agreeing to lies and false narratives in order to be accepted by the parent, and so on. And we wonder why so many abused children have trouble in school, or with trust in adults ...

* The best indicators for pathological lying is knowing whether the person is exhibiting personality disorders in the Cluster B spectrum. Use of charm, invalidation, perspecticide, gaslighting, low or no empathy, mirroring your interests, and all of the tactics to the right (the column listing abuse tactics here on my web page). We know that the overwhelming number of narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths lie, and that deceiving others is part of their disorder and their personality.

SO HOW DID THEY GET TO BE LIARS
WHO PRESS OTHERS TO ACCEPT THEIR FALSE NARRATIVES?
AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR YOUR RELATIONSHIP GOING FORWARD?
CAN THEY CHANGE?

They are capable of change but an incredibly high percentage do not want to change and downright refuse to change. The general rule is to be very wary of pronouncements of change (especially if they are emotionally and psychologically abusive). Here is why:

The answer often lies in their childhood. Usually something was traumatic enough where they did not feel they could be their authentic selves and tell the truth. Perhaps their parent lied a lot, abused them and tried to convince them they were the perpetrator instead of the victim (that the child made the parent abuse the child). Or they watched on the sidelines while a sibling became a scapegoat and where that scapegoat was lied about and lied to. If the scapegoating was done without any push-back, they will feel they can do it too, with the same results.

At any rate, the parent molded them in this environment of lies and half truths, and if the lies weren't believed, where there were many, many consequences, excuses and more lies. Deceptions became part of the family dialogue.

Pathological lying and rewriting history tends to take place in authoritarian families (where you are often punished for not going along with what a parent expects of you, and the lies the parent wants you to believe), in families where marital infidelity (cheating) is the norm, in crime families where revenge fantasies are played out and where lying is used to extort money, power and things from others, in alcoholic families where the truth is such a slippery slope because the parents are so inebriated that they don't know what the truth is because they are in black-outs so much of the time and hide their alcoholism by making events up, where children can be viewed as an inconvenience that keeps the parent from drinking and where the consequence of that is child neglect, where there is family incest, and where there is generational family abuse and violence. Lying and pointing the finger at others is seen as needed to stay safe, because culpability, even if tiny, has extreme consequences, especially in an authoritarian family. Lying is also used to keep a family reputation intact, or some of the members enmeshed with each other.

The more these things are prevalent in the family home, and the more the child is expected and blackmailed into conforming to the lied version of stories, the more the child will accept lies, lying, and dis-empowerment. There is a good likelihood that some of the children will take up lying themselves. The golden child might lie about his siblings to stay on his parent's pedestal, the scapegoat might lie or agree to lies to stay safe, the mascot might lie about his family being wonderful when it is actually dysfunctional and abusive, and instead be led into looking at "the family as a comedy of characters", and the lost child might lie just to stay out of the turmoil and embroilment so that he can keep his focus elsewhere, and away from the family dynamics.

The problem is, lying and blaming others can become a run-away train, used in all situations where the child and adults do not feel comfortable or safe, and where the truth won't be believed any way. In authoritarian families in particular, the parents decide what the truth is, who is telling the truth, what truth or lie will protect the parent's reputation and image the most, which lie or truth will protect the parent's authority over the children the most, which of the children is expendable in terms of keeping the lies going and the appearances up, and so on.

On top of it all, there is the double bind (which I have yet to publish): a child is expected to uphold lies that his narcissistic or sociopathic parent wants him to uphold, while at the same time insist that the child tell the truth at all times, and then when the child tells the truth, the parent decides he is not telling the truth, and punishes the child. This kind of no-win "double bind game" is particularly used on scapegoats in a family.

This can turn into:
When the golden child lies, he is deemed by the parent to be telling the truth.
When the scapegoat tells the truth, he is deemed to be lying.

Remember that in the beginning of this post I said that there were studies done that show that sociopaths and narcissists are the least likely to be able to tell who is lying and who is telling the truth among the general population. A lot of this accounts for why they see the truth-teller as a liar and why they see the liar as a truth-teller. When you put children (and people in general) into roles, you are even less likely to be able to decipher who is telling the truth and who is lying. When you make impulsive judgments, even more ability to see the truth is taken away from you.

So lies and the truth are based on what the narcissist wants them to be.

The authoritarian parent tells the family what lies have to be accepted as the truth and what truths have to be accepted as lies in order to be a member of that family.

When the child grows up, he either rebels against lies and lying, or of upholding false narratives (which usually means he gets scapegoated) ... or he upholds it all and uses it for his own benefit in his own relationships and life (which usually means he gets a golden child status, even if he is manipulating his own parent in this way eventually, which he usually does: remember that it is "a way of life", not just some random slip).

Agreeing to go along with lies or not agreeing to go along with lies has an either/or component to it in the abusive authoritarian family, and terrible consequences for the children who have to decide what to do with all of these lies and false narratives ... including how to respond, how to look at lies and false narratives, whether to accept the lies and false narratives as they are or to question their validity, or reject them, whether it is a good way to live or a bad way to live, whether worshiping a parent who lies, smears, gaslights and tells false narratives is making them sick and anxious or whether it intrigues them as to how much the parent gets away with it, whether to go on with the family tradition of lying including punishing their own children for not accepting family lies, or whether to give up the family tradition altogether (which will most likely mean that the child will not have a close relationship with the parent who lies).

If your spouse is a pathological liar, he or she most likely came from a family like this. He adapted to lies in his family, and then took up lying himself, and was rewarded for both by the parent.

So if you are a spouse of someone like this (someone who repeatedly lies and feels little remorse), think about how he, as a child, was rewarded for it. Parental reward is absolutely huge for a child, and molds him and shapes him into being what he is today. Lying, if it is pathological, is like a drug addiction. It seems to him to have more benefits than losses.

Does he care about his lying causing you pain? No, because he grew up in a family where lying was not confronted, or at the extreme end, condoned. The child doing the confronting a lie was punished and scapegoated (usually), not the liar. So it is ingrained in his being that lying and false narratives bring him great results, sometimes rewards, will be condoned by the parent, with no consequences.

The consequence of his lying is that you are in pain, but one of the reasons he doesn't care about your pain is because to him, you act like the pathetic scapegoat in his family - yes, abusive families see scapegoats as pathetic, stupid and crazy, and are called those things repeatedly. The scapegoat is usually invalidated, his feelings don't matter to anyone in the family (and the parent tries to teach the other children in the family to ignore the scapegoat's feelings and then eventually the scapegoat altogether). That is why your feelings don't matter. He has been taught to be aneasthetized to others' pain. The scapegoat is also punished and/or rejected when the scapegoat confronts the parent about the parent's lies, so to him, lies are reward-able and the truth is punishable.

If your partner is a narcissist or sociopath like the parent who taught him to lie, he will parrot the parent: to blame and blame-shift any culpability on to you, that somehow something was wrong with you that made him lie. Or he will be gaslighting you instead: you better believe in what he is telling you or else you will be punished, after all he is your spouse and spouses are loyal (even though you have caught him at cheating). And most of the time the blame shifting escalates and gets worse in all kinds of situations.  As long as you are in pain, you are deemed to be pathetic, stupid and crazy, just like the one in his family who was abused the most.

He was taught to be unempathetic, cruel, blaming and gaslighting by a parent who did that to one of his siblings, or to the other parent, or both, and now he has taken what he learned from the abusive parent and is doing it to you.

If your partner or spouse grew up witnessing a lot of physical abuse in tandem with emotional and psychological abuse, and he is using all of the other tactics narcissists and sociopaths use, expect him to be physically abusive as well.

This is why it is not to your benefit to stay in a relationship with an individual like this, no matter how many affairs he is flaunting (which he does to make himself look desirable and worth competing for), no matter how many self esteem crushing things he says to you (which he hopes will make you believe that you are barely worthy of him because he has so many other ladies around for the taking), and no matter how much money and leisure he flaunts. None if it makes a bit of difference if you are trapped in an abusive controlling relationship where he calls all of the shots and shows no empathy for anything you go through.

Many children who have parents who are narcissists and sociopaths feel like they have been through a war (the only difference is that war is at home instead of on a battlefield, and the things they are fighting for are a voice, consideration for their feelings, compassion, respect, dignity, justice, an even hand, some choices in situations that are effecting them, a right to live without abuse or excuses about abuse, the right to have their own perspectives without being invalidated, the right to be consistently loved like other children, the right not to be pitted against a sibling by their parent, the right to non-retaliating or sadistic parental responses, the right to make decisions about their own lives without severe parental consequences, none of which they get if they have an NPD or ASPD parent). Do you think you can do any better than their children? And if you have children with people like this, your children will be living in a sea of lies, made up stories, often affairs that effect them even more than they effect you, and they will be emotionally scarred and punished depending on how they respond to lies. You will have to make the decision to protect your children. If you do protect your children, expect your spouse to rage, to be vindictive, to threaten divorce, rub affairs in your face, call you crazy and unattractive, and punish you and the child you are protecting. If they get the feeling that they cannot control you and how you relate to your children, they will usually put you through the nastiest divorce and custody battles that they can muster. If you stay, your children are likely to be blackmailed, pitted against each other, continually abused or abandoned, and anxious. Before you get in deep, please consider that these people are usually not worth competing for (the "competing" will never end anyway, and they pronounce themselves judge, jury and lawyer); they aren't worth reasoning with; they aren't worth having children with; and they are rarely even worth going to therapy with (because they will be lying to the therapist too, trying to enlist the therapist to co-bully-blame you, and putting on their charming Dr. Jekyll face, which are just additional lies you will have to deal with even if the therapist sees through the lies) ... "what glitters isn't gold" by a long shot. Receiving a flattering kind of love bombing from them, being good in bed or having a few interests in common isn't worth the nightmare you will have to endure.

IN CONCLUSION

In the next section (yet to be published) I talk about different ways people respond to being lied to, and how a lot of lies and false narratives in close personal relationships effect both victims and perpetrators. It even effects the brain functioning of both perpetrators and victims. I also discuss the common responses therapists suggest to deal with pathological liars (even ones who may be a sibling, a parent, or a spouse).

It is much too long to go into in this post, thus the need for another post.

The next two videos are highly recommended by Lisa Romano:

"What Happens When the Narcissist Knows You've Figured Them Out"

"Narcissist Pathological Liars/Deception and Shift Blaming/They Can't Tell the Truth"

This next one is by therapist Les Carter called
"A Narcissist's 3 Selves: Public, Private and Secret"
It's the secrets and the inability to discuss their own emotional issues
that give their narcissism away:

This next one is by psychologist Dr. Ramani Durvasula
who specializes in narcissism and relationships with narcissists
entitled "What is 'Future Faking'? (Glossary of Narcissistic Relationships):


Why are abusers, narcissists and sociopaths rejecting, violent and offended by facial expressions, glances and your tone of voice - my own post (with lots of research, experiments and studies on the topic). A lot of battered women are victims of this.

8 Common Narcissist Lies (Be on the lookout for these, before you’re exploited!) - by Preston Ni M.S.B.A. for Psychology Today


6 Toxic Arguing Techniques Used by Narcissists and Manipulators - by Darius Cikanavicius, Author, Certified Coach for Psych Central

Narcissists Promise You Everything, but Fail to Deliver (Who is the real “crazy ex” when a narcissist’s relationship falls apart?) - by Suzanne Degges-White Ph.D.

How Narcissists Use Future Faking to Manipulate You - by Darius Cikanavicius for Psych Central

“The Fix Is In”: How Narcissists Spin Your (Possible) Future Problems To Make Themselves Look Good - by Lenora Thompson for Psych Central

How Narcissists Pretend to Impress, Manipulate, and Use You- by Darius Cikanavicius for Psych Central

How Narcissists Blame and Accuse Others for Their Own Shortcomings - by Darius Cikanavicius for Psych Central


What It's Like To Have A Parent Who Is A Sociopath (If you are the child of a sociopathic parent, I understand how tough it is) - by Brianna Wiatrak for The Odyssey Online

Narcissists & The Art of Future-Faking - by Zari Ballard for the Narcissistic Partners and Relationship Agenda website

The Fifty Future Fakes - by H.G. Tudor for the Knowing the Narcissist website 

What is the difference between gaslighting and lying? -from Quora
excerpt:
Gaslighting goes a step further as it is deception and telling lies. The intention isn't only to hide the truth but to outright deny things that the other person has experienced ...

Gaslighting: A Sneaky Kind Of Emotional Abuse - by Mary Elizabeth Dean for Better Help
excerpt:
Gaslighting is one of the most difficult types of emotional abuse to recognize. Most kinds of emotional abuse are easy to spot if you can look at the situation rationally rather than emotionally. Someone puts you down constantly, criticizes every move you make, shames you, blames you, calls you names, refuses to show you affection until they get what they want, punishes you, or keeps you away from friends and family - all in an attempt to control you. These are more obvious forms of emotional abuse.
Gaslighting is different, though. Instead of abusing you in obvious ways, the gaslighter controls you by manipulating, hiding, and distorting the facts of your situation. You become confused and disoriented because the gaslighter has caused you to doubt your sanity. Being controlled by someone else is never easy. Being gaslighted is especially hard to deal with simply because it's such a sneaky form of abuse. The person who gaslights you wants to control you, just like with other types of abuse. They just don't want you (or anyone else) to know they're doing it.

The Secret Façade of the Vulnerable Narcissist - by Christine Hammond, MS, LMHC for Psych Central

The Secret to Spotting Subtle Narcissists - by Craig Malkin, Ph.D. for Psychology Today

The Nightmare of a False Accusation - by John Amodeo, Ph.D. for Psych Central

The Quandary of Being Falsely Accused and How to Deal with It - by John Amodeo, Ph.D. for Psych Central

Separating the Narcissist’s Delusion from Reality - by Sarah Newman, MA, MFA for Psych Central

4 Behaviors That Unmask Narcissists - by Peg Streep for Psych Central

5 Reasons Why Keeping Family Secrets Could Be Harmful - by Suzanne Handler, MEd for Psych Central

The Power of Secrets (They divide people. They deter new relationships. And they freeze the development on individuals) - by Evan Imber-Black for Psychology Today

Family Secrets (A therapist's guide to telling the truth — and healing) - by Evan Imber-Black, Ph.D., the director of the Center for Families and Health at New York City's Ackerman Institute, and the author of "The Secret Life of Families" for Good Housekeeping

Five Ways to Recognize a Toxic Family - by Jeanette Raymond, Ph.D. for her own website

Toxic Family Secrets: Did you grow up in a home where there were toxic family secrets? - by Josephine Ferraro, LCSW for her own website


 Lenora Thompson of Psych Central in her article, 4 Truths for ACONS (Adult Children of Narcissists):
excerpt:

... from the tender age of six, I was expected to tattle on myself. Not just when asked either. To be proactive on confessing anything and everything wrong (including the stuff I now realize wasn’t wrong) I had done, said, felt, thought to my mother.

Then she lectured and/or punished me.

By any yardstick, that upbringing would be enough to turn anyone into a first class deceiver. A pathological liar.

But it didn’t. I’m still honest to a fault. That’s to my credit…not theirs.


Narcissists Never Talk About What They Did to Hurt You, Only How You Reacted - by Gerald Sinclair for Awareness Act
excerpt:

Narcissists are some of the worst people to have a conflict with because instead of working through the issues you’re both facing with one another, the narcissist closes off drastically. Instead of owning up to what they did to upset you, the narcissist will push your buttons until you explode and then act as if you reacted in an extreme manner over nothing.

29 comments:

  1. Mine lied so much, it took years of my no contact to wonder through the thicket of lies and rewritten history. Even learning geneaology was worthwhile to get through some of the lies. I always knew she lied, but I didn't really discover the depth of the lies until I was out of the fog and into no contact. She lied about me constantly to others always to make me look bad. She even told others "she did nothing" and "I offered to take her to Mayo" when no such thing happened and I was going to a Center for Advanced Medicine. Anything and everything to just make me look bad. I believe mine is very high level on the scale, most believe her lies. It never would occur to them she is lying so I was deemed always the one in the wrong. Mine lied about major things that effected my life. One was she had contact with my nephews when they lived in my state and knew where they lived, she slipped up one day. I was told I could not know where they live due to the ex-wife, but there was my mother happily visiting for years, while I was cut out, not knowing how to contact them. That's just one of many things. I am so glad to be gone. I am still being hoovered but that's another story.

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    1. Thank you for writing in.
      "... always to make me look bad" - that is one of the signs.
      It sounds like you are doing better.

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    2. Yeah always to make me look bad, that is what her whole life has been spent doing but now I am checked out for good. Yeah life was going better well until Coronavirus.

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  2. Didnt need this today , not feeling strong as a survivor at the moment ...but hey i still read it all . this whole lockdown stuff is not good when your having to spend hours trying to sort out stuff for your nightmare 84 year old mother , only to be told how bloody useless you are and how everybody else is perfection ...ho hum nothing changes

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    1. Yes, but realize that all of the barbs and "you are not as good as -" are extremely typical of narcissists and sociopaths. Knowing that it is a "trait" of theirs should help you not to take it to heart, and even perhaps distract you from responding. I find that the "interesting" phrase comes in handy when they are on the attack. I used the phrase on a co-worker for absolutely every barb, and eventually she gave up attacking because that was the only reaction she could get out of me (narcissist's don't like to be bored, even with reactions).
      :-)

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  3. I agree that this is tough to read for any survivor. Not because it isn't true and most of us go through this, but because so much of the world is doing this, especially in politics. So many lies, so many spins, and a president who loses it because he feels emotionally wounded by experts and expertise to the point of vindictiveness. Then comes the #FakeNews tweets when he wants to gaslight and punish the experts when they don't go along with him and what he wants.
    For those of us who have grown up with this every day, we know it is a disaster and we can't count on leaders for anything sane or reasonable. So it is beyond depressing that the whole world is caught up in this narcissistic nightmare and being punished by people who only care about how they are perceived, if they are going to get votes, and if they are being flattered.

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    1. You brought up an interesting point. Narcissists tend to be attracted to positions of power and leadership, and not very attracted to professions which are team oriented. Team oriented would be professions like orchestra musician, sound team for a band, non-principal ballet dancer, actor, news reporter, some sport teams, hospital staff, fireman, EMS worker, construction crew member, and so on.
      When narcissists are in power, they are going to be spending more time on their image and how they are coming across to the public, how to consolidate more power, how to win, how to strategize an outcome, rather than on public policy that makes sense for the public they serve, taking into consideration what the public is going through and how they are living (which requires empathy, something they are exceptionally low on). In other words, they tend to espouse more opinions than information-gathering and facts.
      My own opinion is that the more integrity and compassion a leader has, the better off the country will be.

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  4. I think one of the reasons why this is hard to read for a survivor is because it encompasses not just gaslighting, which all child victims endure and which has been touted as the most egregious form of abuse lately. It encompasses it all. It isn't just gaslighting it is all of the lies from smear campaigns to blaming. For our family it was all of the blaming every day, a childhood of it.
    My father is a sociopath who has committed crimes but got off over technicalities. My mother is a narcissist. I have heard so many people say that the two types should marry so that stay out of the dating pool. But the problem is that they breed. My oldest sister killed herself. My younger brother I think was the lost child and is a homeless addict. A half brother ran away and lives in another country and no one has seen him for 16 years. So many families with two parents who are Cluster B look exactly like mine. What is more, my parents are fine with the destruction of their family and their children. My sister's suicide went by without a tear out of them. We suffer. And then they turn around and blame us for suffering. The big lie is that we are to blame.

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    1. Hi Anonymous,
      I don't know if you saw the video above from Lisa Romano, but she goes into that quite a bit. I highly recommend those videos. Lying and blame-shifting to narcissists is like candy to make them feel better.
      But what makes them feel better is at the expense of others.
      Also, I want to validate what you are saying. I have seen so many survivors put out pictures of their family and tell what happened to each child. Many of them have a suicide and an addict, just like your family.
      My own view is that as adults we have the freedom to leave narcissists, but children do not have that capability so they cope, and often feel imprisoned by, a parent who uses the child to make themselves feel better at their child's expense. One coping strategy is suicide, another is addiction, and maybe for you it is trying to figure out narcissism. But because underage children cannot figure out narcissism, we need better child abuse laws that address emotional abuse such as the laws that Great Britain has.
      Think about signing the first petition of its kind that addresses this: https://www.change.org/p/protection-for-victims-that-are-suffering-emotional-psychological-and-financial-abuse-by-narcissistic-personality-disordered-individuals

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    2. And thank you for your story and for writing in.

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    3. The videos are very good. I think I like them more than the two psychologists. Thanks

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  5. "-they are that invested in appearing to be a 100 percent victim - being a "believable" victim also makes it much easier for them to continue to be a perpetrator and putting all of the blame on you)."

    No question, they do this. Question is, do they know they are lying when the do it? In other words, are they so invested in believing they're infallible, righteous, never wrong- that they believe they are the victims when someone tries to hold them accountable or resolve a bad act they committed? I understand they are addicted to being right, addicted to doing/saying/hurting whoever in order to maintain "right" status. However, are they so far down the rabbit hole of their ego that they don't realize they are lying about another person to save their face? Do they not realize that gaslighting is deceitful and hurtful? Do they believe their own lies when they smear and hurl false accusations against their victim?

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    1. please see my comment below (in three sections). Feel free to write again, if you feel the desire to.

      Delete
    2. It actually goes to 4 parts because my program auto-corrected some words and it doesn't make sense as written.

      Delete
  6. I've come to understand from experience that narcissists generally know and delight in their lying; they enjoy it like a game and get a high from it. However, after all these years, I'm still baffled by BPD ( I have a mother with this). She does all the same things a narcissist does - tantrum, abuse, act out...then smear the one she assailed, reverse victim/abuser). But either she is a truly brilliant performer, or she actually BELIEVES she's the victim. She will behave outrageously badly and abusively, deny it, create a false accusation against the one she harmed, then double down and try to gaslight that person to their face. She comes away with self-righteous rage and triumph if she succeeds in getting the person to back off of holding her accountable, and getting others in the social circle to believe her smear campaigns. However if proof is provided that shows she made it all up just to get away with behaving badly...then she melts into dramatic self-pity and despair. Would even threaten suidcide or hint at it, especially when we were children (never attempts it though, just another threat to push away personal accountability). She's so good at doubling down on her "victimhood" status that I honestly can't tell if she truly believed all along that she was the victim in this. What never happens? Admittingly accountability for her behavior and her lies. Never happens. Never has remorse. Never apologies. She either gets away with her bad behavior without anyone confronting her; tries to destroy the one holding her accountable; or dissolves into entrenched deep self-pitying victimhood that SEEMS believable at this point....not just an act to get out of accountability. Can someone really continuously attack others, rant and rage, lie, smear, seek to destroy, even assault others...and then come away authentically viewing themselves as a victim? When nothing has ever been done to them except excessive catering and the occasional (and I do mean rare) attempt to discuss their repetitive ugly behavior towards others.

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    1. please see my comment below (in three sections)

      Delete
    2. It actually goes to 4 parts because my program auto-corrected some words and it doesn't make sense as written.

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  7. She definitely suffers from black/white thinking, projects like crazy, but this isn't a 3 year old. Don't they know they are lying when they make up s**! to avoid accountability? Is it true that they don't understand the negative emotions within them are coming from within? When they rage and attack, do they truly believe someone else is doing the raging and attacking...to them???? Because they feel bad when they are raging, but can't be bad because they are perfect, then the person they are raging at must therefore be bad? Hence their rage is justified? Is that how they think? Is that why they are so unrepentant, petulant, and willing to double and triple down? Do they actually believe they are righteous??? How can they lie so convincingly, so often, so rigidly? Even about their own child..without an ounce of guilt? Okay, I can see some people not wanting or able to feel guilt...but surely they are intelligent enough to understand when they are making crap up and lying, no? The difference between narcissist and bpd is that the bpd seems to have 100% of their emotional chips invested in being right; they are DESTROYED if they are held accountable or proven to have lied or behaved badly. Narcissists don't fall to peices when someone holds them to account: they either go to war or move on to another target if their lying and manipulation won't work against someone. BPD doesn't seem to know to move on to another target..they keep fighting or dissolve into self pitying self-immolation. All the while feeling it is being done to them. BPD don't seem to experience the "fun" of doing bad then lying and scapegoating others, as narcissists do; they seem instead to BELIEVE it and suffer from their false beliefs. They have none of the naricssists fund at playing the victim-they truly believe they are the victim! They're like a more fragile, less intelligent version of a narcissist. They actually believe their lies, from what I see. Whereas a narcissist knows they're lying and delights in it. The bpd seems to suffer by believing their own lies. They commit bad acts and throw tantrums, but believe its being done to them while they're in the throes of it. Whereas the narcissist has a great time during the whole DARVO act and knows what they are doing. At least that's how it seems, witnessing the cycle thousands of times.

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    1. please see my comment below (in three sections)

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    2. It actually goes to 4 parts because my program auto-corrected some words and it doesn't make sense as written.

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    3. I don't think narcissists are intelligent when they do this either. I am the product of a NPD mother and an enabling father. The thing narcissists don't get is that they are pushing us children away!!! It sounds like the way you describe BPD, they know they are in trouble so they play the suicide card or go into so much self pity that it keeps their victims. I'm in forums with other ACONs and most of us are NC. That means no contact by the way.
      My father spent all of his time with me telling me how to walk on eggshells: "Don't talk to her about this that and other things. Head up to your room after school to avoid her rage." And if she did go into one of her tirades, Dad would blame me for not walking on eggshells enough, or saying something that might be close to things on the list of not to talk to her about. That list was so long it was absurd. She lost her children over this BS!
      A lot of narcissists are so cold that they can't cry if they are on the verge of losing everything they built. They just say, "I never loved any of my kids anyway." Then we hear from Dad that she's despondent, but not to our faces, so we don't know if she's playing games. She acts like we don't matter.
      Your Mom acts like you matter, otherwise why go to pieces and threaten suicide just because you found out?

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    4. Hi Anonymous,

      You have a point there. It reminds me that I need to write more on BPD because some of them, particularly the more aggressive form of BPD, is part of the abuse topic. Then we have alcoholics who can abuse someone or put someone in the hospital from a bar fight in a black-out, and wake up in jail and genuinely not understand why they are there (black-outs have to do with memory loss). And then there are BPDs, NPDs and ASPDs who can have substance addictions (particularly to alcohol). Then there is malignant narcissism (someone with BPD, NPD and ASPD). Then there Paranoid Personality Disorder that can be comorbid with Cluster B personality disorders that can make a person really violent, especially if they have prejudiced perspectives. There is so much to this, and I've barely scratched the surface.

      I studied BPD first, after I found out someone I was close to was diagnosed with it. He had the childhood background associated with that disorder too - parents who told him he was never wanted, that he was mistakenly born, and put his older brother in charge of him instead of taking on parental responsibilities. Then he became overly parentified - took care of his parents while still a boy. If you abandon BPDs, they are at high risk for self harm, highly dangerous activities where they can get killed, and suicide. If you abandon NPDs, it is true they say you never meant anything, and they aren't really capable of love anyway (they drone on with false narratives to everyone, their closest friends, their partners, their children, everyone - you can't be close to people who you lie to and play head games with). BPDs can love deeply, and my own experience in the relationship with one was that he never lied, not to me anyway.

      BPD is very complex. Some of them have almost no narcissistic traits, even less than the general population. Other manifestations that are more aggressive have a lot in common with the vulnerable narcissist. And it all has to do with the sub-types. And really the only common thing with the sub-types is depression and significant anxiety.

      Thanks for your comment.

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    5. I don't know that much about BPD, but the differences are just starting to become more clear. Their both in the Cluster B range, right?
      So it sounds like this BPD mother is playing head games like a narc and less like a BPD? Or do BPDs play head games? You said the one you knew didn't lie to you.
      How do the people who treat their mental conditions figure out what is what?
      Mine made a big deal out of raising kids, that she was this mother of greatness, was the person people went to when they didn't know what to do with their own kids behaviors and now she says she never liked us kids to begin with? How is she doing now that her kids are traumatized from years of shouting at us and the abuse? None of us know because you don't know if the words are what she really feels. How is my Dad doing after babying all of her moods while Mom pretended to be hurt because no one could be as ultra careful about what they said as she wanted. No kids in our neighborhood lived like we did. We were the only unhappy family. We felt as odd as the Frankensteins.

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    6. I did hear from some clinicians that it used to be a practice a couple of decades ago that if they had a patient who was hurting others, they often diagnosed the women with BPD and the men with NPD. Then it wasn't cool to do that (showed sexist bias).

      The nuances between the sub-types weren't considered then either. Everything changed in such a way that the sub-variants became the preferred avenue to more effective and long lasting treatment.

      You said "We were the only unhappy family. We felt as odd as the Frankensteins." - I'm sorry you went through that.

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  8. I would love to know definitively if they know they are lying when they smear and gaslight. When they make false accusions (accusing you of doing what they in fact just did to you is the classic). This behavior always occurs after they've done something really bad to someone and want to get away with it, craft a a narrative that reverses victim/offender. But are they doing this fully knowing that they are lying and further hurting someone in order get away with their trespasses without anyone else knowing? Without any hit to their pristine image. I suppose what I'm working up to asking is: are they that diabolical or do they actually believe their own lies?

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    1. Please note: I am not a clinician; I'm a researcher on topics related to abuse (BPD counts) and former teacher.
      So here's what I know (and I may have to break the comments up because of the type of program I am writing on):
      * BPDs are capable of knowing less of what they are doing than other Cluster B personality disorders because some of them have much more severe "splitting" than the other disorders. And it is not just relegated to black and white thinking, and catastrophizing situations, but can include memory issues. However they would have to be experiencing memory issues in a lot of different situations and at a lot of different times, not just when they are blame-shifting. Which is to say that BPD *can* be comorbid with DID (though it is rare) but, more importantly is very often comorbid with PTSD (or C-PTSD).
      * Most BPDs have had significant child abuse and/or trauma when growing up, which included abandonment or insecure attachment. Depression, impulsivity, drinking and drug-taking, and a terror of abandonment are often part of the picture. Unlike NPDs who can grow up in abusive environments with abandoning types of parents, they aren't necessarily the victims in those environments (and can be a golden child).

      continued ....

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    2. cont ...
      There are 4 types of BPD:

      * Impulsive BPD: elusive, flirtatious, charismatic, personable. Impulsivity can manifest in significant amounts of illicit drug-taking and alcohol consumption, unprotected sex or sex with a lot of partners (including people they do not really know in terms of intentions), indulging in gambling (can be in the real sense, but can also be with their life, safety, and reputation).

      * Discouraged BPD (also referred to as Quiet BPD): often successful and highly functioning, but feels alienated and freakish in groups, has flimsy bonds with others, and behind the scenes engages in self harm, feels lonely and empty of purpose.

      * Self Destructive BPD: the stand here is that they engage in a lot of substance abuse, so they can addictions. They display with adrenaline seeking behaviors. They often self-harm, sometimes have suicide ideation, and insist on a life that has high energy and sleep deprived.

      Petulant BPD: They get angry one minute, sad the next. They can also be abusive one minute, and remorseful the next minute, push-pull behaviors (abandoning, but then want you back). They can be dissatisfied with relationships, irritable, impatient and passive aggressive. They can have severe mood swings and be attention-seeking.

      As for the general symptoms of BPD, the following is a list of them (a patient only needs 5 to be considered BPD). Some BPDs are exclusively self harming, and others are violent towards others. As I said above, most have PTSD from childhood abuse and childhood neglect (and for BPD usually with some kind of abandonment in childhood), or some traumatic events which filled their systems with cortisol for extended periods during childhood (sometimes to the point of changing their autonomic nervous system).

      cont ...

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    3. cont ...
      PTSD can sometimes present with some memory issues as well, especially short term, and the desire to suppress memories can also be part of the picture in order to function in a day-to-day manner. Then, when the memories are suppressed, they come out in the form of nightmares, and often disturb sleep, sometimes all night long (waking up constantly in a sweat, with your heart beating fast). Being up all night also can do things to your mind, put you on a rollercoaster of being forgetful and upset by even the smallest challenges. Severe PTSD can make you feel like you can't handle life. So PTSD is something to look into too.

      Since there are such a big range of types of Borderlines (where two of the four can co-exist together even), and be comorbid with PTSD (or more likely C-PTSD, the diagnosis from the World Health Organization), and sometimes with DID, NPD, ASPD, Bipolar Disorder, and Paranoid Personality Disorder, there can't be a definitive answer to your question. Even if she went to therapy once a week for decades, the clinician treating her might feel pretty sure, but not definitively sure. But that's probably the closest to getting an answer.

      Anyway, it may still be important that she know what she is doing, how she is effecting people, and discussing what she thinks is reasonable for being accountable for aggressive actions against others. Going to a therapist who specializes in BPD, or the Cluster B personality disorders might give you a better sense of what to do (you can certainly talk to them in more depth and in more detail about what you are seeing and hearing).

      And just one more thing ...

      When I was a teacher, there were cameras in every classroom and on every school bus. Sometimes a child would act up, or slug another kid, and it would be caught on tape. Some parents would say their child would never do what they are seeing on tape. But it was obviously their kid. Then the school administrators would have to roll the tape back and show it again. And there could be denial about it every single time. This is before the age of AI and cameras couldn't lie.

      If we had to bring his school mates into the discussion of what happened that day, they were brought in.

      No matter whether the parents kept up with the denial, or whether the child played the victim, they had to be accountable no matter what. The parents might have had BPD, and the child might have had BPD, but the aggressive actions the child took against another child were going to be resolved according to school policy, the end of story.

      It was up to the child and parents to find a way to end their own denial about such matters to keep their child from being expelled from school.

      Part of the reason for making the offending student accountable is that it definitely curbed the chance that he would do it again, and sent the message that no student could act like he did without consequences.

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    4. P.S. The second installment is a little jumbled, and a word or two got auto-corrected to the point of not being legible.
      Anyway, I forgot the link in that second part too describing the symptoms of BPD (only 5 need to count): https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-borderline-personality-disorder-bpd-425487

      I'm going to re-word the Self Destructive (Depressive) sub-type to: the issue here is that many of them engage in a lot of substance abuse, so they can have addictions. Many of them can't seem to hold on to jobs. They seek adrenaline-like activities. They often self-harm, sometimes have suicide ideation, and insist on a life that has high energy where they are often sleep deprived as a result. They are also at high risk of self harm, not taking care of themselves, and of suicide.

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