Perspecticide and Being Invalidated Often Feels Unsafe and Even Downright Dangerous On the Receiving End. Comes With a Discussion on Narcissism.

Note: this post is a deep dive into this subject, so you may want to read it in parts.

To understand what perspecicide and invalidation are, you may want to go to my post on the subject first HERE. 

If you've experienced a lot of invalidation, hopefully you will find this post helpful as I use a lot of links (and even a short personal story) to help validate what you may be experiencing, feeling and seeing. 

So do children feel unsafe with adults who invalidate their experiences? Yes. This is the shorthand version of the Google AI article (in dark red):

Emotional invalidation—dismissing, minimizing, or belittling a child's feelings—disrupts their fundamental sense of security and trust.

* Threat to Attachment: A child's nervous system interprets the withdrawal of emotional warmth as a threat to survival, as they rely entirely on caregivers for protection.
* Loss of Predictability: Chronic invalidation removes the "foundation for trust," making relationships feel unpredictable and unreliable.
* Hypervigilance: Children may develop a state of "walking on eggshells ... 
* Internalized Fear ... 

Long terms impacts are self doubt, shame and low worth and suppression: They may "push down" emotions to maintain a connection with the adult, which can lead to later Complex PTSD (CPTSD) symptoms.

How about in long term adult relationships? Can perspecticide and being invalidated feel unsafe or dangerous? Yes. 

Many of the same consequences for invalidating in adult relationships are the same as for children with some differences (the list of differences for adults are as follows):

The nervous system response is manifested as physical pain. Repeated invalidation can trigger a permanent fight-flight-freeze response. 

Psycholgical Erasure: Chronic invalidation acts like an "emotional eraser," making you feel as though your reality doesn't count. This "existential wound" can make you feel that your very right to exist is being threatened.

Emotional Suppression: You've learned it is "safer" to stay silent or hide your needs to avoid being judged or told you are "too sensitive". - this is similar to a "walking on eggshells" environment that a child experiences. 

Physical Symptoms: Living in this state often manifests as a tight chest, shallow breathing, chronic anxiety, or insomnia. - These are well known trauma symptoms (I'd add in gastointestinal problems and headaches to make it a more complete list), all of which can turn into PTSD if ongoing, which has some similarity in children in these situations. 

The article goes into a discussion about emotional abuse, domestic violence and gaslighting. 

All of this is in the same link I referred you to when talking about adult-to-adult relationships. 

If someone invalidates a dangerous situation you experienced, can it create more danger for you? Yes. 

That link points to all kinds of issues that result from it:
* That it can put you in more danger than the initial danger.
* That there can be a "gaslighting effect" where others deny your reality or try to make you think that you are exaggerating or making things up. 
* There can be a compromise to your safety where others downplay your risk to the point where you you believe them over what you are actually experiencing. This can mean that you also downplay your risk. 
* Chronic invalidation is linked to higher rates of PTSD and also increases self harming behaviors. 
* It can prevent you from seeking medical or psychological help (fear that you'll be invalidated there too). 
* It adds a layer of social and emotional trauma to the original danger. 

And who invalidates others much more than other people do? Narcissistic and manipulative personalities, those people with Borderline Personality Disorder (another cluster B personality disorder along with Narcissistic Personality Disorder), people who relate to others in a co-dependent style, people who focus on logic and "proving a point" more than on what is actually happening, caregivers from invalidating environments (people who grew up hearing a lot of invalidation can invalidate others). 

This particular Google AI article makes the point that it is "a core trait", not just a tendency, of people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

But why do narcissists invalidate?
* They don't trust other people and feel they are being lied to most of the time or that people are plotting against them, or they feel that others are trying to undermine their power and control - that is because they are that way themselves and it is hard to conceive that others aren't just like them (and the link to the article does talk about projection). 
* They are only in relationships for power and control and all other issues are inconvenient.
* They have a lack of empathy (which is a brain issue) which means they simply don't care what other people are experiencing or feeling unless it concerns them and their ambitions for more power and control over others. However, they are likely to lose power and control as they invalidate and show no empathy, so I'm not sure why they would think invalidating would help get them get power and control unless they feel that "gaslighting works". Part of it is a brain issue too, the lack of ability in judging how others feel (separate from how they feel, that is). It would seem whatever power and control they had at the time would be wiped out by their invalidations. 
* Narcissists really don't care about other people. They see relationships as transactional, ones that will benefit them more than the other person.  
* Relationships are disposable to them. Again this is a core trait, not just a preference.

HOW CHILDREN AND ADULT CHILDREN FEEL
IN A FAMILY ENVIRONMENT THAT INVALIDATES THEM

Children fight with invalidating parents to be heard, especially about issues which are frightening, dangerous, unfair, abusive, upsetting, provoking, or awful. They do it to get safety and boundaries against the dangers.

If they are getting invalidated instead of getting safety, they learn that they are not safe, and not safe from an adult shielding them from harm. The adult becomes untrustworthy, someone they can't talk to, someone who won't listen, or someone who is biased (confirmation bias would count as a bias too). 

Part of invalidating a child by a caretaker is an unspoken resolve that "I'm not listening to you. You're ---" and then the judgements come out that miss the mark (or a character assissanation). "You're exaggerating!", "You're paranoid!", "You're crazy! That never happened to you!", "You're a liar! I know a liar when I see one!", "I believe your (sibling). I don't believe you!", "You think you know everything! Well you don't! I know much more than you do and it simply never happened!" - when they apply it to situations, "You'll think of anything to gripe about to make the family miserable!", "I don't believe you!", "I really don't care what you have to say! I've never cared!", "Don't forget that I was alive at the time! I have eyes everywhere!", "You're responsible for this!", "You don't do things right, otherwise you wouldn't have been in danger!"

Part of the issue is that they don't investigate what real situations are, to see what you are going through, and they rarely, if ever, try to understand your perspectives and why you would feel what you feel. It's easier for them to decide what reality is and to tell you what it is, and if you don't adopt their perspectives, they may well call you "crazy", or "insane", or "lying", or that you are only trying to prove them wrong and make their life miserable, or they may feel that it is hopeless to talk you into false narratives and reject you. When I went to Google AI to get an answer to this issue, this is what I got:

Narcissists rarely investigate the "real" situation a partner or friend is going through because they are fundamentally uninterested in realities that do not center on their own needs, image, or convenience. To a narcissist, relationships are mirrors, not windows; they interpret your life experiences—sadness, success, or failure—only in terms of how it affects them. 

In the Google AI article it was broken down into several parts: 

The "False Self" and Projection: The narcissist looks to see how they appear and do not seek to understand your experiences. They insist that you have their traits. They ignore reality and build a fantasy to enhance and protect themselves from flaws or ego "fall-out". 

Lack of Empathy and Cognitive Dissonance: they lack affective emotional empathy and can only understand what you are going through cognitively. In other words, they can barely, if at all, see anything from your perspective and how it would effect you on a psychological or emotional level, which is why they use invalidation in the first place - they don't understand the emotional fallout of not having empathy for others.
     Their main agenda is transactional relationships. If they feel acting empathetic will get them what they want, they act it out, but otherwise are indifferent to what you are going through. - obviously this is incredibly problematic and can be dangerous for children. 
     Since they don't care about or value your perspectives, if you speak about your perspectives, you are likely to get shouted down or told you are "difficult" or "never satisfied". 

The "Victim Narrative" and Self Centeredness: They find your "difficult times" (illness, surgery, losing a job, getting bullied, your child needing care over an accident) as an inconvenience to them, and may tell you that it's "all your fault" or that you need to get over it. They are also too self centered to care. If they are part of your narrative of why you are going through a difficult time, they blame-shift, refusing to understand or take accountability. Note: blame shifting for narcissists is usually impulsive, rash. It is also incredibly cowardly.

In other words, they do it in most situations where they are being held accountable, not just with their children. They rarely can stop this behavior because they use it as "a primary survival mechanism because their sense of self is too fragile to handle accountability. To them, admitting a mistake is an existential threat to their 'perfect' image" - link to the Google AI article this quote comes from. This makes it hard to solve any problems, or get safety or concern out of a narcissistic parent. 
 
Why They Don't Investigate: It offers no immediate or conceivable pay-off for them or for their ego. They see no advantage to them in investigating. Also: Investigating the truth might expose their own faults or weaknesses, which they are desperate to hide.

Scapegoats of narcissistic families endure a lot more invalidation than other members. That Google AI article has this to say about the phenomenon:
Scapegoats in narcissistic families endure intense invalidation, serving as the "emotional landfill" for family dysfunction to protect the narcissist's image. They are punished with chronic criticism, gaslighting, and blamed for problems they did not cause, leading to profound isolation. Despite this, they often develop greater independence, self-awareness, and resilience compared to other members.

There is a lot more to that article, but you can explore it yourself through the links. 

So while scapegoats are the main object for invalidations of their experiences, feelings and thoughts, other family members can go through this too. I was talking to a Lost Child recently who became the family scapegoat in her later teenage years after her oldest sister left the household. Before becoming "the new scapegoat" she rarely said anything, rarely revealed anything, rarely approached her narcissistic parent for anything, or over anything, and kept her mind away from the family and put it on her school studies instead. 

However, much to her surprise, her school studies were constantly being inerrupted by accusations from the same parent her eldest sister endured. After that original scapegoat left she, the lost child, was the one getting attacked by the other family members instead. Since study and research were her main interests, and since she spent most of her time with her head in books and on the internet looking up subjects, she began to look up some of what she was experiencing: "being called a liar when I'm not", "Trying to make me believe something that's not true", "suddenly being attacked by my family", "What is a scapegoat of a family?", "What is gaslighting?", "Why is my family suddenly gaslighting me?" - and eventually she found out about narcissism and why narcissists scapegoat through those kinds of links. In the process, she discovered that narcissism and scapegoating was the problem in her family. Also, once a scapegoat leaves, the lost child often gets saddled with the role. However, she accused her parent, in this case her father, of being a narcissist (usually not the best idea as that will make most narcissists go ballistic and they can be dangerous). Anyway, the wheels came off of her life and her ability to be left alone (she was attacked constantly), so she moved in with her older original-scapegoat sister.

Narcissists need a scapegoat, and if you're no longer in their presence, or "convenient for scapegoating", they find someone else.

Also they tend to scapegoat and invalidate others who are:
* Truth tellers  
* Children who are independent minded - that link also points to kids who are intelligent, perceptive and seem to challenge the narcissist in some way through their intellect. Narcissists really only want totally obedient children who will believe any story the narcissist tells. A child's independent thoughts are a threat to a narcissistic parent. 
* Children who research and find the parent is off on their facts. 
* Children who are going through a difficult time, whether illness, disease, distress, losing someone, most anything ... again, a child in distess is inconvenient and a nuisance. In fact, the scapegoating and invalidation can increase and amlify. If a child is chronically distressed, they are often ignored or discarded by a narcissistic parent. - that link also says narcissistic parents often punish distressed children. The silent treatment is also brought up in that link. So is increased gaslighting. So are disparaging judgements: "selfish", "weak", "an embarassment", and dismissal of the child's pain with words like "useless", "get over it", "don't bother me", "over-reacting" and "crazy" - all invalidating gaslighting statements to turn the child's focus back on pleasing the parent, focusing their attention on their parent's needs while at the same time giving up on their own needs.
     Obviously this is not possible when a child is in chronic pain, but instead of finally dealing with the issue, as most people who are distracted and self centered might, the parent escalates with neglect, avoidance, rejections, more invalidation. 

And this, folks, is cited as the number one reason for why children from Generation Z become estranged from parents (that link includes not being heard and being dismissed - which is a manifestation of invalidation). When the invalidations, neglect of concerns and distress are ignored, when too many silent treatments are used to solve dire issues, and the gaslighting and smear campaigns and negative "off the wall" judgements continue, expect estrangement from your child (if not right away, eventually). 

And by the way, smear campaigns sound like more invalidation, denial, and blame-shifting. Obviously, it doesn't solve a thing with the child. What it apparently solves for the narcissist is getting really gullible people to believe a parent's false narratives and smear campaigns against their own child. It's not an admirable occupation to have in the world, and once the narcissistis parent is found out, it will create disgust in those same people. 

I think anyone in their right mind can see that being invalidated with all that goes with it (the distress, the negative judgements, the bullying, etc) is an impossible situation to live through, and is the antithesis of parenting.

In fact, many of these children fail, eventually, to look at these kinds of people as parents: there has never been safety, love, concern when distressed - it's only been about the parent trying to put the attention back on themselves whether that's in positive or negative ways. And that's just not the kind of parenting that most people want.  

However, non-narcissists can also use it. 

Years ago I watched a series (I'm pretty sure it was on Amazon Prime or maybe Apple TV - about 12 years ago?) about children who were estranged from their whole family. The genre was documentary in nature, and published as a series - interviews, showing the estranged adult child  in the new life they had adopted, the community they became part of, how dfficult the transition was and what it does to your happiness, psychological health and makeup, and how they felt years after leaving. One of them featured an Amish nuclear family who had decided to separate from their community, and another woman from The Twelve Tribes Commune, and another woman from a Jehovah's Witness background, and many others from the tighter knit communities in American society. 

My opinion is that that they featured tighter knit communities because they are more enmeshed, harder to leave without enduring significant blow-back, and, for victims, harder to assimilate into American society. 

Almost all of them described situations where they were being invalidated by a parent, and many were abused because they wouldn't go along with the invalidation-oriented narrative, even when their parents browbeat them or punished them, sometimes severely, to accept it. They all experienced emotional shunning and ostracism from their family or whole community, and found it so intolerable to stay in their families and communities, that they felt that leaving was the only option, that life with their family would never work again. Many of them had safety issues with their families too (usually some sort of abuse). Either they didn't feel safe, or they didn't think their children were safe. 

It proves to me that if you are going to insist someone did something that you don't approve of, or said something, or is actually who you say they are, you should be absolutely sure you have an awful lot of facts that legitimize your view, that it's not just a theory or heresay, or from another person who may have an agenda, or some kind of vague suspicion or paranoia.

Shaming a person over something they didn't do, didn't think, or didn't feel won't work. Shaming a person over a jedgement about them that has little bearing of the truth won't work either. 

Shaming people over what they didn't do and insisting they did do it is a narcissistic trait (another link) and if you aren't narcissistic in any of the other traits, if you are a parent who is invalidating your child because you grew up with it, maybe it's time to drop behaviors of "invalidation". One reason why is because the newer generations are so much more educated than past generations on what narcissism is, and what the traits of narcissism are, that if you speak in hunches, and vague suspicions, or believe in something someone else said, you may be viewed with suspicion yourself. 

Estrangements, in this day and age are very common. At the time of this writing, 30 percent of Generation Z are estranged from at least one parent. It's become a normalized part of society and of relationships, and definitely accepted and tolerated by younger generations, and becoming more tolerated by older generations, just as divorce became normalized in the 1970s (and my hunch is that estrangements directly or indirectly came out of that movement).

As far as estrangement is concerned, the numbers continue to grow. If you are a parent, trying to figure the estrangement out, and you've given your child a one-time invalidation, it probably is something "big", something the child can't live with: some possibilities include an abusive family member, incest, a sibling bullying them, the other parent abusing them, not taking their adult-hood and decision-making seriously, destructive toxic home environments with lots of down-side issues that the adult child no longer feels safe in or wants to be part of. 

However, if there were constant invalidations while your child as growing up, there's your answer as to one of the most intolerable aspects of their experience of the family. Other reasons for what is causing estrangements, can be found in this post where I go much deeper into the subject - the common reasons, whether your child is a narcissist (includes signs), or whether they are depressed upon leaving- and those signs - isolating, being alone.

As for what childen feel when being chronically invalidated (incudes dealing with a narcissistic parent):
* "My parent doesn't love me."
* "My parent doesn't care about me."
* "Why is everything about them?"
* "Why do they have to control everyone and everything?"
* "I feel like a non-person in this relationship."
* "I feel like I don't matter at all to my parent. I'm just a robot who works or doesn't work the way they want. Is this normal or an anomoly?"
* "They are so terrible at listening. Why?"
* "I am treated much better by most other people compared to my parent. Why?"
* "Other people want to know who I am. My parent just makes assumptions, and the worst part about this is that they stick to the assumptions! So annoying! But why?"
* "Why am I experiencing so many punishments over things that other kids never get punished for?"
* "Why am I not believed when all my friends have parents who listen and want to get the full story?"
* "Why am I not valued? By my own parent? What are they getting out of devaluing me? Why not just give me away to another parent if that's the case?"
* "Why does my parent give me a hard time over leaving them or ignoring them? They never liked me in the first place!"
* "Why do they like provoking me over made up fantasies? What are they getting out of this?"
* "Why do they insist I listen to them when they don't listen to me? Am I just a roboton that is just supposed to take orders from them, and believe stuff that isn't true?"
* "All I feel is frustration talking to my parent. It shouldn't be this hard to grasp their attention or for them to understand. It's like I have to shut up and only talk about what they want to hear. And what they want to hear is just another attempt to make a fantasy out of a reality."
* "Am I supposed to always be silent? If so, I'm nothing to them."
* "I feel like (my father or mother) is just blind. Why?"
* "Why wouldn't my parent want to know what's real? Why are they always trying to cover everything up to enhance their ego, with fantasies that they think will make their ego bigger? And how can a fantasy really make an enlarged ego anyway? I don't get this whole trip they are on."
* "Why does everything for them have to be solved using the silent treatment or shouting me down? Why can't they use the kinds conflict resolution practices that other parents use? Something seems terribly wrong with their method. It doesn't solve anything and is making me feel more invisible." - the silent treatment can be looked at as a sign of invalidation too. 
(Note: this may be of use: What a parent's chronic use of the silent treatment does to a child. A parent's chronic use of the silent treatment can cause C-PTSD in the child. Also note: C-PTSD syptoms can cause children to separate from a parent when they become an adult).
* "Why is the silent treatment being used by my parent to solve an issue where I'm being abused by ________ family member? Isn't this too major for that kind of treatment?" - Again, this can cause C-PTSD and usually does. 
* "Why can't they stop using the silent treatment? Sometimes they promise to stop it, but they usually don't. And I can't see what they are getting out of it. I hardly want to talk to them about anything any more, and I certainly am sick of caving in. Caving in does nothing except that I distrust them more and more."  
* Sometimes: "For some reason my parent wants and enjoys hurting me." - Some parents really can be sadistic when it comes to their children (it's a sign of Malignant Narcissism). 
* "Is my parent a narcissist?"
* experiencing either intense shame (if you believe them, are easily gaslighted, or want to believe in their judgments of others) or hyper independent (if you don't believe them)
* experiencing hypervigilence to attacks and more invalidation
* nightmares about being invalidated over important issues they try to bring up with a parent, or conversely, dreams where they try to bring up a situation with the parent and they listen in the dream, but when awake and the child is inspired to re-enact what they did in the dream, their hopes are shattered once again
* pressure to be silent and not speak about anything except for what the parent wants to talk about
* feeling both invaded and ignored
* feeling both that their thoughts have to be internalized, but hounded by the narcissist for information
* "Why do I have to have a life where I have to protect myself from my own parent?" 

These are just some of the thoughts and internal struggles that survivors of parental invalidation have, the more common ones. 

HOW ADULTS FEEL IN RELATIONSHIPS
WHERE THEY ARE CHRONICALLY INVALIDATED BY ANOTHER ADULT

In close adult relationships when your experiences, feelings and thoughts are being invalidated, you are likely to feel silenced, alone, going through life without the other person's help or empathy - and if the narcissist tries to isolate you or forbids you to have relationships with other people, you can feel starved of compassion, love and care. 

Narcissists often try to make this your fault, that this is all you deserve, and if you leave, they will tell you that you will experience worse life experiences if you leave them - it's absolutely not true, but they will try hard to get you to believe it. Note: clicking on the Google AI versions will get you better articles and answers and less searching.

With adults in close personal relationships, being invalidated a lot often means divorce, especially in an age where divorce is common. 

Neither relationship can survive without the receiver of invalidation experiencing suppression. It is exceptionally unhealthy and traumatic over time.

The only other route is separation, a new beginning.

Part of invalidating someone else is an unspoken resolve that "I'm not listening to you. You're ---" and then the judgements come out that miss the mark (or character assissanations). "You're exaggerating!", "You're paranoid!", "You'll think of anything to gripe about!", "I don't believe you!", "I really don't care what you have to say! I've never cared!", "You're crazy!", "You're responsible for this!", "You don't do things right, otherwise you wouldn't have been in danger!" 

What you are going through becomes an invitation to attack, at least with invalidaters. Gaslighting is bound to be part of it. 

If this is your husband or wife, all of these invalidations can make you feel as invisible. 

If you are married to an invalidating spouse, your children are probably being invalidated too. So it becomes a dire family issue. If your spouse merely learned to invalidate, and does not seem to have the traits of narcissistic personality disorder, they can probably change out of it. However, it might take some nuance to suggest therapy for it. People who invalidate often feel they are "right", otherwise they wouldn't do it at all. Expect slow progress as it takes a lot of effort to grow out of habits. 

Following are ways that narcissists (and sometimes alcoholic spouses) behave when they want to invalidate:

WHEN THEY ARE HAVING AN AFFAIR OR AFFAIRS:

In this section, I refer to a man cheating, but all of this can be applied to women who cheat too. 

A high majority of narcissists cheat on their partner just so you know. 

How invalidation works when they are cheating: 

"Your suspicions are wrong. I'm a solid guy. I don't cheat. You need to think some other thoughts other than those. Suspcions aren't reality. It's your mind playing with you again. Maybe you're insecure." - for the more covert dark triad kinds of narcissists. 
     Note: the more overt narcissists will usually get angry if you suspect they are having an affair: "Why would you accuse me of that?! You have no right!" is a likely outcome. They may accuse you of having an affair instead.
     You might voice a suspicion that "Something doesn't feel right. There are women calling you on the phone. You take the phone outside a lot to talk to them. And you suddenly go quiet when I go outside." And the reaction you get is: "You're crazy!"

Then they get caught (you saw him kissing a woman on the mouth):
     "You didn't see what you think you saw! It was just a friendly kiss, the kind friends do! What's the matter with you!?" - the gaslighting starts, as well as the invalidation of what you saw. 
     The more you tell him what you saw, the angrier he gets: "You're crazy! I told you the truth, so what's really happening is your mind is going nuts on you! That's not my fault! That's your fault!" - the blame-shifting starts. 
     The covert kinds of narcisists will be a little more calm, telling you need therapy or a psychiatrist to help you recover from your suspicions and decipher reality. 
     Notice how the gaslighting deepens, the escalation of silencing you as he tries to take control of the narrative, and how the invalidating is escalating (discounting her sense that something is "off" in what he is telling her, trying to get her to distrust her own thoughts and feelings). By trying to control the false narrative, this is also a sign of narcissism (they are usually only in relationships for power, control, domination and narcissistic supply and they often try to make untruths into truths - the more they succeed at it, the more they use it). 

Then you catch him french kissing the woman:
     He says: "I told you that we're friends! Did you get some help for your problem?"
     You say: "I don't think I have the problem at this point! French kissing is not a 'friendship kiss'. Why are you trying to get away with all of this lying?" 
     He says: "Okay, so she comes on to me! I didn't initiate it!" 
     You say: "It seemed pretty mutual to me!"
     He says: "You were spying on me! How DARE you spy on me! How DARE you tell me that lying is unethical when you're spying on me! Look at yoursef before you accuse me!" - this is where the blame-shifting starts. 
     You say: "Stop trying to blame me for your infidelity!"
     He is out of control (for overt narcissists): "You know what's wrong with you!? Everything!" - he's trying to create a situation where you are so flawed that he's not going to listen to or care about your complaint. 
     Going silent on you (the silent treatment for covert narcissists): They refuse to speak to you, and go about doin what they want regardless of the commitments, regardless of your feelings, regardless of the lack of morality tey show. They have to direct situations, and insist that you have to do as they say, and if you are refusing to let them by rebelling against their affairs, they are going to keep giving you the silent treatment. 
     Destroying something, stealing something of value, intensely spreading smear campaigns about you, or beating you up (for malignant narcissists): they try to drive fear into you that they will destroy you or your life if you object to what they are doing and will make you pay for resisting their plans for you. Or they will file for divorce and flaunt their lover, or move their lover into your common space and expect you to either compete with the lover or be afraid of them or leave your house and possessions to them. 

Many narcissists insist that you put up with them. If they say, "I'm the best person you ever met! Before me, you were nothing!", which a lot of them do, it does not mean you have to take that grandiose vision of themselves as your reality, and probably shouldn't. A lot of them use "the ungrateful phrase" too. 

All of it started with invalidating your experiences, your feelings, and your person. You become an obstruction to their agenda of having another partner or partners. If they can't push you around, they do see you as useless and very well may say so. 

Narcissists also are "boundary crashers". If you've caught the two of them in your bed, that's one sign. But they keep it up with other boundaries you have to see how much they can get away with, how much you'll tolerate from them.

After awhile you won't feel comfortable or relaxed in your bed or possibly your entire house. All of it is incredibly disrespectful of your peace, sometimes is crafted to be that way, and needs for privacy and stability. Narcissists aren't particularly careful who they get involved with either (they do it to get narcissistic supply primarily, and sometimes types of narcissistic supply that will rock your world and make you more and more vulnerable to manipulation and attack). 

Usually if you stay, there may be some love bombing and hoovering to keep you giving them narcissistic supply, or in the game of putting up with the affair, but it will never last (it's fake love and fake overtures of regret at trying to get you back - narcissists don't love people; they are in relationships to manage and control people).

Being afraid of them, giving into them, being concerned with which lover they are with, being concerned with what false narratives they are spreading about you, being concerned about your boundaries and how they are being violated by them, feeling constantly upset or "put on edge" by their actions, feeling anxious around them, wondering what drama they will conjure up next, allowing yourself to be seduced by them even though you're objecting to their affairs - these are all narcissistic supply to them. Again, they get off on negative narcissistic supply as much as they get off on positive forms of it. They validate that they are important this way, that they are the center of your attention, that they have power, control and domination over what you do, what you think, what you feel and all of this gives them information about your vulnerabilities so they can attack those vulnerabilities when the time is right for them.

Their blackmail, obfuscation, on-going smear campaigns, lying, false narratives, on-going gaslighting, pushing the envelope in terms of what they "can get away with", on-going ignoring of your feelings, breaking every part of your peace of mind can become your everyday experience with them, along with dealing with their constant demands, excuses, grandiosity, extra-marital affairs, the invasiveness of their affair partners into your house, or bed, or childrens' lives, or place of employment, which they may try to normalize: "Everyone has affairs! What's wrong with you?!" - and you can feel that your life is in danger from the lack of boundaries (their allowing lovers into the house, lovers who may be violent or jealous, lovers who may want to destroy you and/or the children to "get the man", their constant intimidation tactics to get you to accept what they are doing at your expense, and so many other unforseen events). 

It's not your fault: narcissists are traumatic to be around, and can present dangerous situations or be a danger to you themselves. 

In terms of extra-marital affairs, one way to tell if you are dealing with a narcissist is that narcissists blame you for their cheating, whereas most other people will not. However, cheating is more likely to happen with people who have narcissistic traits. 

Being cheated on can resemble the trauma of being home invaded, and having things you value stolen from you - again, go to Google AI for the information on this, or go to articles which discuss betrayal trauma by a cheating spouse. 

Being cheated on can also make you feel devalued. Understand that love bomb, *devalue* and discard cycles are a core narcissistic trait, and this trait has nothing to do with you even if they may try to make it about you, or your fault. They will do it to others too, whether co-workers, employees, their siblings and other family members, their present scapegoats, anyone. That is a type of invalidation in that your being, your self esteem, your peace, your thoughts, your feelings, your health, are all invalidated by the rejection (devaluation and discard) itself. 

There is an underlying cause to this however:
What is the major childhood issue that would make narcissists want to cheat?
What that answer reveals:
* profound emotional neglect
* sometimes abandonment of a caretaker 
* Possibly a childhood filled "with abuse, neglect, or unrealistic conditional love". 
* Narcissists may cheat to "avoid being abandoned. By keeping relationships superficial or having multiple partners, they avoid true vulnerability, which they perceive as dangerous due to early life trauma."
* A need for constant attention and validation. "Because their self-esteem is constructed from external validation rather than internal confidence, they require continuous praise. When a long-term partner stops providing intense, constant admiration, the narcissist seeks it elsewhere."
* They are re-enacting childhood neglect. 
* "lt of childhood emA direct resuotional neglect is often an inability to feel empathy for others, making it easier for them to engage in betrayal without remorse." 

One thing that this article does not mention is that narcissists attack other people pre-emptively because they think others will attack them, and because they are paranoid or suspicious - this Google AI article goes into more depth about why they think pre-emptive attacks are a "necessary for them". This would include cheating on you. Many narcissists assume that if they are cheating that you are cheating. Even if they know that you're not cheating, they assume you might, especially if you are bucking their control, or they do it to have more ups-man-ship. 

Narcissists are also novelty seekers, even when it comes to finding new partners and ways to cheat. 

WHEN THEY HAVE AN ADDICTION:

Narcissists who have an addiction can be more invalidating and abusive than they would if they were sober - the link in this sentence goes to this Google AI article at this period of time (partial):

Narcissists who struggle with addiction often exhibit more extreme levels of invalidation and abuse, as the addiction exacerbates underlying narcissistic traits such as a lack of empathy, grandiosity, and intense emotional volatility. When a substance use disorder (SUD) co-occurs with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), the individual may become more volatile, reckless, and cruel, using substances to fuel their ego or to cope with deep-seated insecurities.

They become more volitile, exhibiting rapid mood swings, explosive and intense anger, more intensive invalidating tactics, escalated forms of manipulation, more grandiosity than usual, more resistant to treatment where the narcissistic ego cannot admit they have a weakness, and less empathy. - all of this is in the same link. 

But what about malignant narcissists?

It's so much worse. Here is what the present Google AI article says about that (partial):

When malignant narcissism is combined with addiction, the risk of harm to others increases significantly. This "dual diagnosis" creates a volatile environment where the narcissist's existing traits—such as lack of empathy, grandiosity, and a need for control—are amplified by the disinhibiting effects of substance abuse.

Here is a shortened version of the rest of it: gaslighting with devaluation; they try to shift responsibility for the addiction on to others; there is heightened selfishness and belittling the needs of others; there are heightened paranoias, fantasies, lying, and they try to make small disagreements into deep betrayals and conspiracies. 

But the more concerning issue is that "there is a significant risk factor for violence": 

"Substances like alcohol or stimulants can remove the small amount of self-control a malignant narcissist might have, leading to impulsive physical, verbal, or sexual aggression.

The article also outlines heightened sadistic trends as well as heightened resistance to treatment. 

I had to deal with someone with both issues myself, and it was truly a nightmare. You may want to get police and domestic violence counselors involved in safety plans, as well as install a security system if you live apart from them. And not kidding. You can easily under-assess the dangers because of the type of relationship it is, or live on wishes that they will change, or have PTSD where your experiences are broken apart into autonomous episodes, and at the very least believe they won't go any further than they did with the violence, but abuse almost always escalates to worse forms of violence. It very rarely de-escalates, no matter the relationship, and no matter which "good side" they show in public (narcissists try hard to hide their abusive sides by being overly sweet and accommodating in public). 

Malignant narcissists who have substance use disorder often micro-manage you and call you lazy. Watch for this as it is the tell-tale trait of the malignant type. 

As far as how you'll feel being around a substance abuser with either type of narcissism, you'll probably feel like you're in some kind of danger and you would be right to perceive it that way. You'll probably feel a heightened sense of anxiety. You'll probably have restless sleep and nightmares, stomach aches and headaches which are the beginning of trauma symptoms which can turn into PTSD, even within months of their mistreatment.

I decided to go mostly "no contact" with this kind of person myself. You may want to do the same. 

The problem with getting PTSD is that it clouds your thinking (it plays a part of why women go back to their abusers). You can have memory lapses about what happened to you until you can fully get away from them. Then the memories start invading your thinking as you begin to relax, and then become incredibly intrusive, making you relive it over and over again, but in some ways in worse ways because full memory recall is very, very unnerving, painful and can cause so much tension that it will effect all of your muscles. The muscle cramping can be so painful in that it can give you more hypervigilant symptoms than you had during the actual episodes. It's yet another nightmare you'll have to deal with that can make you feel broken and sometimes unable to break the spell of symptoms. 

This is actually a "natural process": it is how the brain works to protect itself. An onslaught of violent and abusive situations (including verbal abuse, emotional abuse and psychological abuses like gaslighting) will mean the brain can't handle it, and the situations break apart into fragments, where as they are happening, some fragments stay, but other fragments break away and on recall seem either dream-like, or dim, or not quite there. Eventually the full recall happens during times when the body relaxes and the mind starts to make the memories very vivid, even maginified, and eventually the "whole" is presented (I'll get into this more for the trauma section of this blog). 

This is part of the reason why people with PTSD want to be alone - the brain is trying to process what happened, and frankly the symptoms exist to keep you away from the person. 

My PTSD over this particular event lasted a full two and a half years without let-up and even got worse a year in (over a four month experience, mind you). It's so not worth dealing with malignant narcissists in my book, especially with drinking problems. I also don't feel anything is worth it, no promise, no promises to change, no money, no great honeymoons or anniversaries or vacations, hanging on to relationships where this person is brainwashing other people (turning them into "flying monkey"- type of enablers), no promises about anything, not even putting up with their tactics just so that you can still be part of a marriage or a family, nothing. And malignant narcissists do not change a bit, no matter what they say (another link from a prominent psychologist). They won't get more empathetic and often get worse. They won't get training on how to treat a person with PTSD to help the PTSD'ed person get better, and if they do, they use the information they get to make people with PTSD feel worse - because they are sadists at heart. 

Malignant narcissists sometimes try to kill you if they think their reputation is at stake.  - again, go directly to the Google AI article and the derivative articles on the right as the search is filled with articles that do not address this particular phenomenon.

The enablers and sycophants make things worse. They can actually be the main instigators of perspecticide and invalidation because they very badly want to believe in what ever the malignant narcissist says and does, and take their side for their own benefit. Apparently many people have to believe in everything a malignant narcissist says whole-heartedly not to be on the chopping block themselves (and for what malignant narcissists do to others, you can see it in plain sight with the despotic tyrants who rule nations that they do a lot of damage or kill sycophants who disagree with them on one issue). 

I think this is really how PTSD symptoms go to levels that cause such strong symptoms of feeling ill, the flying monkey-like people who say, "That never happened", "I can't believe you", "Such a nice charming man! He would never hurt a flea!", "You're not listening right", "You're exaggerating", "You can't be serious", "You must have an agenda," , "You must be afraid of your own shadow", "The way it happened was ______" and they parrot the malignant narcissist's false narratives. 

In my case, they not only did this, but were shaming me over thoughts I didn't have, and experiences that were either totally made up by them or made up by the malignant narcissist. 

The relationship not only died over on-going attempts of pressuring me to adopt the malignant narcissists perspectives, but by:

* giving me the silent treatment - this person had done it before over an earlier incident, and when wanting to re-establish a relationship with me again, said they would never use it again. The fact that she used it again was a betrayal of a promise (meaning I could never trust her again), and the silent treatment seemed, in and of itself, a totally inappropriate response to this kind of an issue. - this is enough to kill any relationship, but there was more ... 

* trying to shame me and blame me for thoughts and experiences I actually did not have. If they had been true, which they were not, they were such tiny issues that in most people's worlds they would not register as anything "awful". But this was the reason this person instigated a silent treatment, and broke a promise about it. I started wondering if she was a narcissist herself because when looking back on her history, she did a lot of over-the-top unethical things in her life. Usually when someone unethical is trying to make a case that you are unethical through invalidations of your thoughts and experiences, it shows narcissistic traits in them - that article actually points to a trait of dark triad individuals - *shudders* (it is probably good we no longer talk to each other any more, considering this)  ... Regardless, the use of the silent treatment is another clue of narcissism and further made the trustworthiness of this person even more pronounced. 

* there were some sadistic remarks by her - very bad sign, and even more of a sign of untrustworthiness and perhaps malignant narcissism - and a definitive killer of any relatonship. Who wants to have dinner with a sadist?

PTSD itself feels really, really bad. In the more severe cases it is considered by the government to be a  disability (in terms of eligibility for SSI disability income). I'd say it is close to the severity of the flu, especially if you have whole body muscle aches, and headaches, and stomach upset, except unlike the flu, the muscle aches are on-going. PTSD can interfere with your everyday life in the same way the flu can. 

Having a disability is something that sadistic-oriented narcissists are likely to enjoy, rather than help you recover from. 

This means that you will have to find peace, safety and healing on your own (or with the help of domestic violence counselors, a therapist specializing in trauma therapy, and often with police).

The more controlling a narcissist is, the more malignancy is present in the person.

In terms of invalidations, I'd bet anything that most of the things that come out of the substance addicted malignant narcissist's mouth will have some form of invalidation. Like: "You're lazy" when you've done a lot more during the day than they have. "You're useless" when you're quite a bit more empathetic than they are. "You can't do anything right" when you have successfully navigated your own life for years without them. 

How invalidation feels for victims of substance addicted narcissists:

* "Why do they blame me for their drinking!?" - although most people with alcohol use disorder will tell someone that they are to blame for their drinking, not just narcissists with a drinking problem as blameshifting is as much of a problem for alcoholics as for narcissists. 
* "When I try my best and feel I'm giving them what they want, they get worse?" - Narcissists with prominent addictions never feel satisfied with how much people do for them.
* "Why are they spreading so many false narratives about me?" - Narcissists with prominent addictions often spread false narratives about other people (see the Google AI article - other articles appear on the right side).
* "I've been diagnosed with PTSD. Why don't they care about me, when I've done so much for them and walked on eggshells so as not to upset them?" - substance addicted narcissists will not care if you have PTSD or are suffering from the symptoms of it.  * "Why is everything in their life about them? They never think about how others are feeling, ever?" - substance addicted narcissists rarely think about other people.
* "I can't be in this relationship any more. Is there something wrong with me that I can't go through any more of this?" - Being in a relationship with an addict is intolerable for most people
* "I can't be in a this relationship any more. Their narcissism is getting worse and I've reached my level of tolerance. Is that wrong? After all, they are a big part of my family." - Being in a relationship with a narcissist is traumatic and intolerable for most people - see the Google AI article on this with other articles on the right side. 
* "Why can't I cope? I feel frozen, but also deeply sad." - PTSD from narcissistic abuse can make you feel frozen and sad - very common as the link suggests. 
* "I've given up. I can't take any more. What happened to my capacity to deeply and endlessly care how others feel?" - This is actually normal. There is such a thing as "Empathy burnout" and "Compassion fatigue" especially when dealing with narcissists (very common) and addicts (also very common). 
* "I'm tired of fighting to be heard. I feel like I don't exist in this relationship." - It is comon to feel you are a non-entity,that you don't exist to a narcissist or an addict - both of these are found in Google AI and the articles provided on the right side. Here is a video on the subject. 
* "I can't seem to handle this situation. I used to be so resilient and thought I could handle anything. But I'm feeling like I don't have the capacity to handle much of anything with this situation." - It's extremely common to feel you are losing your resilience when you are in a relationship with a narcissist. Again, look into the Google AI part of the link and the articles on the side. The issues it brings up: feeling completely exhausted, identity loss, physical burnout, "walking on eggshells", symptoms of trauma, what the stress does to your nervous system. It is also common to feel like your resilience is slipping when dealing with an addict too. When the narcissist is an addict, your ability to keep strong and resilient is definitely going to feel compromised. You may also feel sick or weak. Long term exposure can give you an autoimmune disease or increase the symptoms if you already have one. And note: narcissists do not have the capacity to care aout any of this. They don't even have the capacity to understand even, and will most likely invalidate or minimize what you are going through mentally, emotionally and physically. If you feel you must withdraw from them, they can increasingly be more dangerous (and that's how invalidation can feel dangerous, what this post is about). They make big bones about how they don't like you, or approve of you, or how you're flawed, but they also want to trap you and not let you leave. Cognitively, it is hard to figure out why, but it has to do with narcissistic supply and not wanting to fill the role they assigned you with another person.

They also blame you and shame you in order to get their way and control you (not to make you leave), and so do addicts, but if these tactics no longer work for them, they tend to resort to destructive solutions, including all kinds of abuse, and some even turn to crime against you, which can also translate into more danger, and more invalidation of your worth. 

I've never found it useful to discuss what I'm going through personally with anyone with narcissitic characteristics myself, although I've tried. Generally what I see with just about everyone who is in a relationship with a narcissist is that you usually have to take steps for your own self care, and give up on them caring about you, or even treating you with dignity and respect. It doesn't matter what you are going through; they do not have the empathy to care or even the capacity to have an inkling for why they traumatize others, and for malignant narcissists they like traumatizing others.

Most people find that it is best to greatly minimize contact with narcissists with addictions in order to recover. Most doctors and therapists know the facts that I've brought up in this section of the post, and should be able to help you get your life back together again. Note: recovery is slow, and narcissists will often try to sabotage it, but it can be done if you give it a lot of time, and do all of the exercises they precribe. 

WHEN THE NARCISSIST IS PARANOID OR HAVING A NARCISSISTIC COLLAPSE:

Note: Narcissists become more invalidating when they are paranoid or having a narcissistic collapse. Narcissists can also become much more dangerous during a narcissistic collapse - significantly so. For instance, many school shooters are young men who are experiencing a narcissistic collapse.

In terms of narcissists with Paranoid Personality Disorder (35.9% of narcissists have this comorbidity), they can become significantly more dangerous when their paranoia is acting up (for this link, look to Google AI and accpompanying articles). 

You can see that with Paranoid Personality Disorder mixed with significant narcissistic traits, they are going to be living on conspiracy theories about others. People with Paranoid Personality tend to endorse other people's conspiracy theories, and people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder tend to make up conspiracy theories and insist that others believe them. 

This combination is very difficult for any partner or any child to live with. Their assessment of others tend to be total fantasy, and if they are confronted or proven wrong, they can and do get danerous. If you don't know them very well, or they are spreading false rumors against you, the danger can take you by total surprise. 

Also, narcissists can slowly develop paranoid traits over time, meaning they might not be that dangerous at 20 years old, but become dangerous when they are 40, say. The fact that their paranoia and clandestine smear campaigns with conspiracies grow and evolve, means again, that you won't necessarily be prepared to face the danger they present to you or your common children, and their destructions can come as a total surprise and be devastating. 

How people with Paranoid Personality Disorder invalidate others (from a Google AI article - partial):

People with paranoid personality disorder (PPD) invalidate others by constantly questioning their motives, accusing them of disloyalty, and misinterpreting innocent actions as hostile. They create a tense, defensive environment by dismissing others' intentions, holding grudges, and reacting with anger or counterattacks to perceived slights.

When the two traits of narcissism and paranoia come together, it can, and often creates Malignant Narcissicism.  

When narcissists assume malicious intent and misinterpret neutral actions, watch out! - especially when they also exhibit narcissistic traits.

Since the combination is hard to decipher, and it can be clandestine for many years, and can be quite a bit more injurious and deadly, it is also why so many therapists and psychologists suggest "no contact" with their clients even when they are only hearing narcissistic traits coming up in discussion. Since Paranoid Personality Disorder is so common in narcissists, in terms of a safety plan, it makes the most sense to them, anyway, for you to begin to separate.

Feelings you may have:

* You may feel unsafe, or you may not.
* You may have nightmares about them, or you may not.
* You may have symptoms of trauma or hypervigilence, or you may not.
* Your major feeling around them is fear, walking on eggshells and high amounts of anxiety and significantly more frustration when talking to them than you do with other people. You may also feel that trying to please them makes no sense and is a constant drain without a good resolution. 

What is more important is to pay attention to signs you are seeing in them (especially collapsed narcissists and narcissists with paranoid personality disorder):
How much control are they trying to exert over you? How much do they withdraw affection from you to get their own way? Is their life and attention focused more on themselves, and not on the both of you? Are they gaslighting you at all? Are they insulting you at all? How much diminishing and invalidating are they doing of your feelings, experiences and thoughts? Do they like to argue and insist that you adopt their perspectives? Do they rage a lot, especially if you complain about anything? Do they make up things they cannot verify about other people? Are they haughty and arrogant? - these would be the better questions to ask yourself about the level and kind of narcissism they have. 

Detecting collapsed narcissism: Are they being held accountable for something they obviously did, and they are reacting with on-going rage or have a pronounced victim mentality about it? Are they blaming you for not caring and for not getting them out of the mess they are in? Have they fallen from grace publicly? Do they count on others to make excuses for them? Have they failed their courses in college and blame it on their professors? Have they been fired from a job and blame it totally on their boss and cannot seem to get over it?  

Detecting Paranoid Personality Disorder: Go HERE. When combined with narcissism, they believe in a lot of conspiracy theories, or if their primary actions and main beliefs are conspiracy-oriented, that is a sign. Hunches, fixed opinions, and suspicions without clear evidence is another sign. Making up a lot of stuff that is damning about other people, is another big red flag. 

Some well-known people who are considered to have these dual personality disorders are (again, from Google AI):

Adolf Hitler

Joseph Stalin

Saddam Hussein

Mao Zedong

Pol Pot

I would add in King Henry the VIII too. 

Who are the well known figures who have had a narcissistic collapse? Google AI only listed a few people: John List, Elizabeth Holmes and Bernie Madoff. However the article does a great job of describing what collapsed narcissism looks like and acts like. If for nothing else, check out the link for that kind of information.

FOUND ON FACEBOOK

Peep's Article on Adult Children and the "No Contact" Trend With Parents in the USA. Is Narcissism Really Behind It?

To reference what I'm talking about in this post, I am responding to Peep's article on the "No Contact" issue sweeping the nation that she discusses through this link. She has also written and illustrated a book about why she went "no contact" with her own parent and most of her family and you can buy her book through this link to find out why (the book includes cartoons which helps to lighten a dark subject a bit, kind of the way comedians do it). 

However, this does not mean that she feels that all adult children should go "no contact". Far from it ...

Anyway, her article talks about the subject of "no contact". Apparently parents who have had children go "no contact" on them are in an uproar. "No contact" (estrangement from the parent) is having its "backlash moment" where many parents on social media are banding together to complain about how they are being treated and either shaming the act of "no contact" or shaming their children or retaliating against their children because of it. Some of them blame therapists instead.

Many of these parents feel they have been really good parents and that therapists are mistaken in suggesting or supporting "no contact" as an answer to their child's distress. 

And some of them are taunting their children too: "Just you wait and see! I'm going to have a perfectly peaceful happy life without you! In fact, I'm going to forget you ever existed! My life is mine going forward and you are never going disrupt it with your complaining and issues ever again!" 

I have no problem with parents "finding a way to be happy without their children", but the taunt will never build a bridge should you ever want them back, or to teach them about good "bridge building" or "what reconciliation looks like". Maybe you don't want them back ever again, and that's your choice, but make sure it is a choice that you can live with for the rest of your life as taunting is very unlikely to change the trajectory of "no contact" that your child has initiated. 

I also acknowledge the pain that many of you are going through. I have friends who are going through this too (being ghosted by a child) and some of the reasons for it do seem flimsy compared to children who really do have narcissistic or psychopathic parents and have never been treated in a fair, on-going kind, non-painful or equal way. In other words, narcissistic and psychopathic parents enjoy hurting at least one child and using their power to get what they want out of their children (they are also very controlling kinds of parents with little to no empathy ... although narcissists tend to regret hurting their children over time; psychopathic parents never have any regrets hurting anyone, including their own child). And that's how you tell the difference between the children who "go no contact" over real trauma and damage to their health than children who "go no contact" for other reasons. 

Parental taunting of your own children or any child is a narcissistic trait, and its another reason why you may not want to use it (it may be used as proof for your child), even if you feel angry and want to lash out. So is retaliatory behavior. It can peg you as a narcissist and give a child proof. Retaliatory behavior against a child is also illegal if they are still a child under the age of 18, and considered to be under the umbrella of instigating more conflict and can escalate to "coercive control" (another link) which is increasingly becoming illegal in the United States and is already illegal in most European countries. 

Taunting and retaliation are not likely to give you peace of mind or to make the pain of separation go away anyway. Neither is the attitude that you are an exceptional parent. Shaming will not work either and often reinforces their desire to stay away. All of these tactics are ineffectual to reconciliation. 

These are my major gripes with this movement to make children feel accountable and guilty for going "no contact". It just puts both child and parent on their own insular islands, afraid of reconciliation, and of one another, rather than opening up a dialogue to mend fences.

I'm not diminishing the pain this is causing to a lot of you, especially if you really are not narcissistic and care about the welfare of your child and never thought they'd follow a trend just to manipulate you into a kind of relationship they want to have, whether that is to control discussions, to silence your perspectives and feelings, or to endlessly hammer you with their grievances. 

However, I have an open mind and tend to look at situations from both sides - the negatives and positives, the good and bad, the children who are going "no contact" and the parents who are hurt by the trend. 

So here is what I think ... 

Is there a demand behind "no contact"? 

In my opinion, for a lot of Gen Z and Millennials there is. I'll get to it later in the post. 

Is it reasonable that 16 - 25 percent of all of America's population is "no contact" with at least one family member  and that 30 percent of Gen Zers are estranged from at least one parent? 

Probably not. However, it is the reality of the present situation. I think it is important to deal with realities instead of depressive thinking or hopeful thinking.

But what's the best way to deal with it?

When I look at Peep's blog post on this, and the responses of parents going through this, it becomes obvious that it's not going to get better by parents retaliatating against their child (because it is a generational shift after all) and going "no contact" themselves with their children, or indulging in all of the tit-for-tat I'm seeing, is copying what these adult children are doing. It would be hypocritical, right?

It's not going to get better through narcissistic tactics either (even if it is just one of the tactics) - the reality of the situation is that scientifically narcissistic tactics have been shown not to work at ending "no contact". They have very tentative troubling short term success at best, with the final outcome being "a type of destruction" of the child and a "destruction of the relationship with the child". 

And to use narcissistic styles in relationships or tit-for-tat reasons, is teaching both other parents and future children that "no contact" is normal - as normalized as divorce, as normalized as finding a new job, as normalized as hiring and firing workers, and that anyone has a right and privilege to divorce any person at any time, no matter the destruction it causes. 

It's also a fact that estrangement in families is increasing, not decreasing.

I feel it is important to deal with these facts. The facts aren't going to go away by themselves or from the drumming of constant complaints from children or from estranged parents. 

Who wants children if they are just going to divorce you, right? And who wants parents if they invalidate, don't listen, are so far from understanding a child's personality, thoughts, experiences, feelings and childhood and adult needs, that parents are treating children like their workers who they can fire at any time? What child would want a life like that, right?

Expect a low birth rate, right? Expect every old person for an entire century to be part of a boomer generation that young Americans are paying taxes to keep alive, right? 

Does this have a good ending? Can it have a good ending?  

So what can you do? 

I really think that understanding all of the issues surrounding this trend is paramount. Without understanding the issues, it's like playing baseball in the dark of the night. You are going to miss the ball and never get off the home plate, so the trend is likely to continue and to deepen, not to resolve. 

According to the younger generations, many have gone no contact over perceived toxic family dynamics and narcissistic traits in their parents (I suggest reading through the Google AI version and then going to the articles on this). I also cover the major points of both articles towards the end of this post.

Okay, so what is the demand behind the "no contact"? 

Not using narcissistic tactics is definitely one of them. If you are inclined to use narcissistic tactics to solve a "no contact" situation, it will just cement the opinion that you are a narcissist. So that obviously can't work in ending "no contact".

If you are using any of the narcissistic tactics and a therapist catches it in a session, the therapist is likely to tell your child that narcissists don't change, so the "no contact" may continue over a lifetime over "that fact".

As far as going "no contact" over toxic family issues, it's complicated, and often "the choice of last resort". But there are reasons why Gen Z is going this way: many of them "just can't take added stress any more", at least where they are at this particular time, with many trying to find good paying jobs, some of them trying to pay off student loans with higher interest rates than their parents had to endure, trying to find adequate living quarters, trying to find a mate, trying to avoid the uptick of viruses since the pandemic hit, and all of the challenges that young adults are facing in today's world. 

With 30 percent of the Gen Z and Millennials going "no contact", you aren't going to be able to shame, blame, continually criticize them, go tit-for-tat, or hurt your child out of "no contact" because these are also well known narcissistic tactics and traits. If you are not a narcissist you can stop at least most of these tactics that the "real narcissists" use. And if you're not a narcissist, it will be easy to transition out of these types of responses and behaviors.

As for the real narcissists, it won't be easy at all, or desirable to them, to transition out of these  behaviors (it's a serious highly resistant-to-change personality disorder, a disability because they don't feel empathy or understand the perspectives of others, and a brain matter), and they will play the victim for years, decades and a lifetime about "how badly they were mistreated" without ever considering their own contributions to how the estrangement with their child happened. They will not understand others much, if at all. Some of them can recognize the feelings of others cognitively, but even that tends to be limited.  

Anyway, understanding narcissistic tactics will hopefully keep you from using the tactics and hopefully help in solving some of the gap that is between you and your child. 

You can read this blog as to what the narcissistic traits and tactics are, or go to other writers on the topic. 

For the rest of the blog I have two sections, one for parents and one for children who are thinking of going "no contact" with a parent. 

FOR PARENTS

One key ingredient is not to make a child always accountable and responsible for reconciliation: If children have always tried to reconcile and cave under pressure to "get along with the parent" it is likely to stop at some point - it's a bad habit that often leads to trauma and a trauma bond. 

A trauma bond is exceptionally unhealthy for anyone, especially children. And it does lead to "no contact" after awhile, especially when a child reaches adulthood. 

Narcissists always try to make their child accountable for a rift or disagreement between them and their child. You may not want to do what narcissists do in this regard. Also, narcissists are known for trauma bonds with their children - you may not want to go down this road either to avoid estrangement. 

If you want to tell a child that you are enjoying life without him or her, that sends a myriad of messages you may not want to send if what you actually want is reconciliation. One of the messages that you send when you say that you are enjoying life without them is that "parent and child estrangements are acceptable, joyful and normal, and I'm enjoying the estrangement." - probably not a good idea if you want a healthy bond. 
     If life is truly better without him or her in your world, make sure you want to send this message - it will be taken as rejection by almost all children, even adult children and will cause trauma.
     If it causes a trauma bond, most therapists encourage patients to break trauma bonds so that they can live without trauma - this is also good to realize.  
     Children who are rejected in this way can struggle with panic ("Should I go back to my parent?") for a little while, maybe, but for the most part, they will not want to go back. If you understand what rejection feels like, you would not want to go back either. 
 
Remember, you were their "first teacher" and they still listen, and more importantly see what you mean by your actions. 

In order to keep a child in your life, avoid these other kinds of actions that narcissistic parents are know for too:

* Don't play games with rejection. Don't do fake discards. Here is another link to a discussion on fake discards. If you're going to reject them, mean it, i.e. don't turn it into a manipulation or punishment for unfavorable behavior from them - only do it because you really don't ever want to see them or be in a relationship with them again for the rest of your life.
     For an underage child, bring them to your local hospital and tell the social workers there that you no longer want your child and that you are dropping him or her off to be parented by someone else.
     If your child is an adult, tell them that you no longer want to talk to them or be in their presence again, and mean it. 
     If you do fake discards it will most likely turn into an estrangement anyway because discards, even fake ones, are traumatizing and deeply unsettling to any child, even an adult child. They will no longer trust you as a teacher or that you will put their well being and safety as a priority.
     Don't reject them and then turn around to give them positive reinforcement once they are doing what you want. This does not work with adult children. This includes silencing your adult child, giving them the silent treatment, telling them that they are "useless", periods of real rejections followed by honeymoons, micro-rejections and neglect. The cycle of abuse that narcissists use is about rejections with honeymoon periods (positive reinforcements after rejection) and a dangerous game of manipulation that narcissists are known for. Rejections to play head games to hurt a child (punish them without regret or remorse) is more of an Antisocial Personality Disorder trait (note narcissists can have both Narcssistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder resulting in malignant narcissism). 
     If you don't use discards or rejection and you feel confident that you will never use them when angry, you are way ahead of narcissists and psychopaths who use this tactic religiously and destructively.
     Children are not going to look to parents who use discards, fake discards, rejections, silent treatments to get parental approval. While it may work for awhile, especially when they are very young, it won't last and even underage children are more likely to "be more and more independent minded", not want to be influenced by you, which can mean eventual "no contact". 
     Also make sure you are not using rejection as a retaliatory measure against your child when they go  "no contact" as it just reinforces that "no contact" is good for interpersonal problems. If you are angry or heartbroken over "no contact", or don't believe "no contact" is good for relationships, don't retaliate with a "no contact" response. 

* Don't "toot your own horn" or act arrogant if you want reconciliation. Arrogance is also a narcissistic trait and what it shows is "I am right and you are wrong, and as long as I think I'm the best parent in the world, nothing will change between us. It's all your fault and it's your burden to make up with me." - it doesn't work. 

* Constant shaming and criticizing doesn't work in terms of reconciliation and is also a narcissistic trait. It also can teach a child that constant shaming and criticizing is normal and okay to practice - even when it comes to shaming and criticizing you. It is also one of the four horseman of the apocolypse (relationships that don't last). If you want tolerance for yourself, practice tolerance towards others. 

* Don't put your children in contests with each other for your love and approval. It doesn't work, and it is also a narcissistic trait. Again, what does that teach them? To put you on notice when they are an adult that you have to work hard for their approval and care too? 
     It tends to teach lessons about empathy too. "I don't have to have empathy for you when I disapprove of you!" - that sends a bad message. 
     If one child is always getting the approval and another child isn't - that is a sign of scapegoating which is also a narcissistic trait. After awhile the child who does not get approval gets used to it, stops trying, doesn't seek it and gets the message that they are "odd man out" and that they have to seek a life of independence, which can mean "independent from you". This happens on a "brain level" in a young child, by the way, especially if the child experiences scapegoating at an early age, which most scapegoats do - usually by age 4 and lasting a lifetime. This "brain change" cannot be changed back into caring what your opinions of them are.
     Some of this will be discussed more in another post about why scapegoats will never be, and can never be sycophants or approval seekers - at least without faking it (some scapegoats fake it so that they aren't rejected, since most of them know that their parent wants admiration so badly, even if they do not really care if their parent admires them or not). 
     If you can tolerate a child who is not an approval-seeker, then you can probably reconcile, but if you can't, the "no contact" is much more likely to never end. 
     Narcissists are approval seekers (they seek approval from external sources - called narcissistic supply - an opposite of what scapegoats usually seek), and they can never give up narcissistic supply seeking, and are therefore not good candidates for reconciliation from children they have hurt, or scapegoated.
     If you aren't a narcissist and can give up on "looking superior" (which also won't work with non-approval seekers) and you can share the power equally with your child, then you are closer to reconciliation than any narcissist will ever be.
     Some of the other traits that defines reasons for narcissistic supply includes arrogance, needing validation they are superior to others, needing constant admiration, needing on-going good and bad attention, and needing constant flattery even when exploiting or threatening others.
     It should all be left behind in favor of what is really happening moment to moment and hearing clearly what is really going on. If you can watch a heartbreaking movie and cry because you are identifying with the character, you can listen to your own child in the same way. 
     In fact, giving up narcissistic supply needs is preferable, and if you are not a narcissist, it should come easy. If you are a narcissist, you won't even want to read this suggestion. To real narcissists, others should want accolades, approval, attention at all times, constant validations and admiration just like they crave. It seems unfathomable to any narcissist that narcissistic supply isn't necessary to function. 
     But if narcissistic supply needs are such a necessity, why are so many narcissists estranged from children, divorced from spouse(s), estranged or disliked by siblings, fired so often from jobs? And most of them are. I can't see that narcissistic supply is a route to a happy life. And neither do most children who see all of this.
     The narcissistic supply they give and get is very, very temporary, and can be downright annoying (as annoying as narcissists in the public eye - as well as exhausting and irritating in terms of their latest schemes to supply themselves with more of it).
     Leaving behind a need for any kind or source of narcissistic supply for the rest of us I would think would be very free-ing as well as "dealing with the reality of situations instead of being hopeful or rejecting of situations." Perhaps feelings of "never-enoughness" go away too. 
     You're also able to approach difficult emotional situations with humility, and the desire for deep understanding and knowledge (as again, it's about dealing with realities, not beliefs, not hopes, not dreams, not disappointments, not boredom). You are enjoying a type of intimacy rather than "future illusions" of what can and can't be. And most of all, you aren't putting a child in a role or expecting something from them - you are letting reality be what it is. 
     It puts you in a much better position for reconciliation among equals - which is really what Millennials and Gen Z tend to demand from their relationships in general, from both parents and peers. 
     You would be way ahead of narcissistic parents if narcissistic supply is not on your mind and agenda when thinking about reconciliation with a child. 

Other things to avoid that look and sound narcissistic:

* Don't gaslight your kids, call them crazy, or spread smear campaigns about them in order to get support from others. This is true especially in trying to force a child to give up "no contact". It won't won't work and it is likely to widen the rift. 

* Don't call your kids stupid or inept, or insinuate it. Again, it's a sign of contempt and contempt is a sure predictor of a relationship that will fail. 

* Don't assume you know what your child is feeling, thinking and experiencing. If you stick to opinions on this, it can mean you will be wrong about half the time at least. It's not good to be wrong that much. It will mean your child won't have respect for your opinions. Going "no contact" over parental perpecticide is often one of the top reasons for "no contact" among adult children in today's "estrangement revolution" in the USA.
     Perspecticide is an excuse for not listening, not understanding, not engaing, and it is destructive. Children can use it on you too when they get to the point that it is no longer worth it to explain themselves "to deaf ears".
     When perspecticide is used a lot by a parent, it doesn't seem like a "real relationship" to a child. It becomes an anxiety ridden painful endurance test instead. 
     Another reason not to use it: narcissists use it in spades. They are exceptionally tethered to unchanging beliefs, a severe form of confirmation bias, instead of exploring the realities of what their child is experiencing. 
     That just doesn't work for any child - there is, in essence, a turning away by both parent and child over constant misunderstandings. In order to avoid "no contact", confirmation bias should not be used or taught to children either verbally or through one's own actions.
     Openness to perspectives should be the guiding light.

* Don't play financial games and favoritism games with children. This is also a narcissistic trait you may want to avoid.
     You are not their boss and they are not your subordinate worker.
     If your children go insubordinate on you, what message does this send? "You're fired?" - the sign of rejection? 
     What happens to bosses who are cruel, or humiliate, and fire their workers? Either the worker makes promises and buckles down for awhile, or they look for another job while working for you or they quit on their own terms, or they get another job right away. 
     Is this what you really want a relationship with your child to be like? 
     And what message does it send? That it's okay to treat family members as workers? And what if other family members, or neighbors, or other authoritarians want your child to work for them too? It opens the door to exploitation, which opens yet another door to trauma. 
     It's better to leave work in the workplace where there are rules and regulations with legal protections. 

* Even if you are deeply hurt by the estrangement, I would avoid the very common narcissistic phrase, "ungrateful". I can see how parents who have put a lot of energy, time, money, thought, and consideration into parenting, only to see their child run off and avoid them at all cost. Where is the reciprocality, the acknowledgement that you did good things for them? 
     But I would avoid it because it's a word most narcissistic parents use about at least one of their children. That link categorizes that narcissistic phrase as a guilt-inducing manipulation to get a child compliant. And what's more, most children know why it's being used, and most therapists know that it is used to sidestep the real issues.
     It's also an aggressive form of perspecticide where the parent doesn't have to listen or deal with the real issues, or the difficult ones, that probably led to "no contact".
     Adult children who are dealing with this side-stepping of real issues and are traumatized by it also will not listen to how ungrateful they are. It achieves absolutely nothing of value. At best it achieves nothing except deaf ears from the adult child and from the parent - neither want to hear what the other has to say. 
     Most likely the issues don't have to do with ingratitude anyway. Your child may be perfectly grateful, and in ways you prefer, but he or she may be bullied by a sibling and you never did anything to stop the tajectory of violence, and when they've endured enough, you tell them to apologize to the violent sibling.
     Or your child may feel unnaturally controlled and invalidated by you and feel you are not able to address it (real narcissists aren't able to address it - but if you aren't a narcissist it may be to your benefit to tell your child that you will address it when they are ready to break "no contact").
     Or he or she may have gotten a terrible illness and felt no empathy or concern from you about it. 
     Real narcissistic parents will never get beyond thinking "ingratitude" about their child because narcissists are chronic guilt-inducers who get stuck in it. It's like they sink in it too. They must believe that nothing is their fault and that all problems and issues are someone else's fault, especially a child who has gone "no contact". 
     If you can get beyond getting stuck in an "ingratitude" thinking style and want to meet halfway to solve the relationship issues between you, again, you are way ahead of real narcissists who most often  get stuck for life on this one merry-go-round style of thought and never think beyond it. 

* Do you have a lack of empathy? Do you feel you have to pretend to feel empathetic? The reason I ask is because it is a narcissistic trait. 
     I'm not sure what can be done about it, but it may cause estrangement with people in your life and probably has already - a lot. 
     I'm not sure what the answer is here except to try to understand what people are going through cognitively and imagining yourself in the situations they are going through.
     In fact, imagine yourself going through those same situations over and over again. Do it a lot and often, especially if your child is estranged and you don't want the estrangement to continue. Even partial understanding is a kind of bridge, or a prevention from a widening rift. 
     If you can't do it, or don't want to do it, there is your answer as to how much you'll understand and what kind of knowledge you are going to receive, if any. 
     Children aren't toys, and if you have estranged children, you know they don't want to be toys. 

     
Other reasons for why children go "no contact":

* Disrespect for boundaries. No always means no. You may be accused of being a narcissist because of crashing through boundaries even if that's the only trait of narcissism you have. 
     Why do children set boundaries with their parents? 
     What is stated through that link is that children set boundaries with their parents to "establish autonomy, protect their mental health, and foster mutual respect. These limits, common in adulthood, often arise from a need to manage toxic behaviors, such as overprotecting or controlling, and to navigate differing values or past hurt."
     If they are retreating because they feel the need for more autonomy, or to protect their mental health, because they are hurt from past traumas or abuse (isolating), or they simply want to manage their own lives, or because they have different values and opinions than you do, or because there are shifting priorities and that most their attention needs to go to their spouse and children, crashing through these boundaries is not going to make them loosen boundaries; it is going to make them toughen up the boundaries. It is a sign of disrespect to push against boundaries.
     Respect is a two-way street. The more you sow respect for a child, the more respect they will show you - usually. 
     Since narcissists make it their agenda to crash through as many boundaries as possible even to the point of stealing from their children for malignant narcissists, it's just not a good idea to disrespect boundaries. Reconciling over broken boundaries becomes impossible when too many boundaries are broken. 

* Lifestyle reasons. They feel you will reject them over a lifestyle, and they really identify with people in that lifestyle. 

* Moving: if they move far away, you aren't going to be the center of their world. Again, this is a fact, rather than something to try to change. Pressure to live closer can create more distance. 

* Broken promises.

* Political reasons. A lot of people in America are experiencing estrangements over politics. That link points to 1 in 5 Americans reporting being estranged from a family member due to politics. Political perspectives at the moment are becoming very divisive. Politicians are also promoting, going along with, or enabling the divisiveness. Realize that constantly contrasting themselves to other politicians is a "get the vote tactic" and does not need to be in your livingroom, diningroom, or any room. 
     But it is being recreated in livingrooms now. Many liberals and people of color feel punished and distrustful, and most conservatives feel elated and empowered (that may be waning a bit at the present time).
     Does a personal relationship need to be like what politicians do to each other?
     While I think, generally, that silencing family members is not a good idea, perhaps tolerance is. No one has your personality and brain and because of that there are always going to be differences between people when it comes to politics. Some families have reached the consesus that politics should not be discussed in the home so that relationships between them aren't infected by it. 
     Politics may be the main reason there are family rifts. 1 in 5 is 20% as a reason for being estranged from a family member. It is close to the 30% of Gen Z going "no contact" with a parent. So who knows. It isn't clear whether politics figures into one of the reason for going "no contact", but it may actually be a bigger reason than other reasons, including narcissists in the family, or maybe some families with deep devotion or deep disgust are narcissistic enough that they cannot tolerate a child of a different political persuasion in their midst. 

Sometimes chidren can be the ones who are narcissistic.
It's common for narcissistic children to name their parents as narcissists since projection is part of the narcissist's game. 
     Narcissists will also discard their parents when they are no longer useful to them. 
     Narcissistic children will also put parents through honeymoon and rejection cycles just like any narcissist will do. 
     Here are the more common ways that children adopt narcissistic traits:

* Growing up with shaming is at the head of "how" they become narcissists. It doesn't mean that this particular child is shamed. It can, and most often means, they are listening to shaming statements of other people, or siblings, or from one of their parents, or other children. If there is a scapegoat child in the midst of the family, there is likely to be a profusion of shaming going on. If parents have prejudices and put other people down, it adds to it. 
     Hearing adults shame others is likely to picked up by a child. If they see that an adult gets what he wants out of shaming, or raging, they will think that's a good way to get what they want too. And then the empathy for others goes away, and eventually that adult child puts their focus on what they can get out of shaming. 
     If they see an adult shaming someone by discarding someone else, and then the other person comes back pleading, they may think that "no contact" will have those same results: that people will come back pleading and they will get everything they want. After awhile discarding becomes a bad habit, and they use it on their parent too. 
     It is one reason why discards and shaming should not be used in family relationships - these are the number one ways that children become unempathetic narcissists who discard others when they aren't getting what they want. They will discard their parents, siblings and children if they feel they are not getting enough narcissistic supply. With parents it can mean "not getting enough money", "not getting enough flattery","not getting enough privileges", "not coming first" (narcissists believe they are superior to others), "not getting something they expected".
     Children most often become narcissistic from contact with narcissistic adults. It can sometimes be a much older brother or sister, or a close friend with narcissistic qualities, but usually it's parents, and secondarily, grandparents, uncles, aunts, or a much older sibling
     Narcissistic adults who are shaming others in the ear shot of children, can't deal with shame themselves without becoming highly dysregulated emotionally, even lashing out at their children, but dish it out in copious ways. If they are dishing out constant shaming to a child, children aren't capaple of dealing with it, and either become deaf and independent to it, or freeze and dissociate when they hear it, or learn to fawn and shapeshift into different "admirable", "acceped" or scheming personality styles to deal with it all - and it is the fawners and shapesifters who are the most likely to become future narcissists.
     There is a lot more to this subject, but those are "the basics".   
     This can create entitlement and feelings of being special, spared, loved exclusively, getting loyalty and the bulk of family resources, and arrogance. Empathy in this case, is not being encouraged in this child, or by this child. When someone else, especially another child, is being shamed aggessively and constantly, and the narcissist-to-be is not receiving the same treatment, it often means a child who is being molded into a budding narcissist with the false sense that they are better and superior in comparison to shamed children. 
     Comparing themselves to others is very much a part of a narcissist's inner world, and it becomes part of the budding narcissist's world too.
     Even if the narcissism is detected before the child becomes an adult, it is often too late to turn these traits around. Children learn empathy early on, and if they are never encouraged to have empathy, and to compete instead, they probably never will have empathy. If they don't have empathy as a young child, or it disappears during childhood, it's pretty much a given that they will never have it.
     This narcissism eventually can be turned on the parents as "no contact" or a discard that is hard to understand. Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a psychologist and expert on narcissism, has made the statement that shaming has no place in a child's life or in child rearing. 
     Instead of shaming, understand what children are feeling and why, soothe and de-escalate, teach siblings co-operation and empathy as they play together - it is a much better way to avoid having a narcissistic child. 
     Some other things that create a budding narcissist:
* Seeing or hearing adults bully children.
* Seeing or hearing adults talk haughtily about the exploitation of others. 
* Seeing or hearing adults be elated and celebratory when they hurt other people
* Seeing or hearing another child receiving gaslighting from an adult (the budding narcissistic child learns to manipulate others when they observe gaslighting) 
* Seeing or hearing elation about an adult giving someone the silent treatment and how they got their way when the silence was broken
* Seeing or hearing adults reject/discrard their own children
* Seeing or hearing an adults who are unethical and reveling in getting away with being unethical
* Seeing or hearing how adults feel after they have gotten a divorce and the destructive arguments around issues of divorce
* Seeing or hearing adults deal with cheating in a marriage (shows children how to get away with things, shows how much empathy is required of people who hurt other people, shows a child what is reasonable for a break-up with another person, shows what fighting fairly and unfairly looks like and what the repurcussions are, and what to adopt)
* Seeing or hearing adults not being empathetic of people who they have hurt
* Latch key kids or neglected children often do not have the ability to self regulate or know what proper behavior is (they are left alone to figure all of this out for themselves, and are even expected to guess their way through it). Children are naturally narcissistic, and they may very well be narcissistic as they deal with their siblings alone in a house. And since they get used to being so alone without adults around, they can live without parents when they become adults too. 
     Children tend to be taught by actions rather than by lectures. However, there can't be hypocrisy in lectures to be effective learning experiences for the child. 
     When narcisistic adult children go "no contact" with a parent, it will often feel like a manipulation rather than a "I can't deal with the pain from being in this relationship."
     The narcissistic child after discarding a parent will often turn to a "high lifestyle of partying", or extreme sports, and often focus on money, building wealth, competing, drinking, drugging, travel, sex, power, control and getting narcissistic supply, and feel superior, on top of the world, bullet proof, and arrogant, whereas the latter "suffering kind of child" who goes "no contact" with a parent because they are in pain, will be dealing with unsolved emotional issues, getting a lot of counseling, will go through a period of cognitive dissonance (and perhaps some pleading before giving up on you), and will be traumatized, depressed, isolating themselves from you or the entire family, and become more withdrawn, introverted and choosy about who they get close to. They become more closed to communication, insulated, and they batten down the hatches, finding refuge in their own home.
     Narcissistic children can be a parent's worst nightmare. A child whose focus is on money, power, exploiting others, partying, a high lifestyle, and narcissistic supply, is not really into taking care of older people or solving relationship problems. "Everything that my parent is going through is their fault" will be the attitude.
     Knowing that you have a narcissistic child without empathy can be a shock to your system and traumatizing. Narcissistic children do their discards and love bombing repeatedly, and get distracted by "better narcissistic supply" often.
     In this case, counseling may be the best option in terms of help in finding the best ways to heal from it, and deal with it. 

FOR CHILDREN:
IS YOUR FAMILY REALLY TOXIC
AND ARE YOUR PARENTS REALLY NARCISSISTS?

Discussion about narcissistic parents:

First of all, do your parents really fit the official diagnoses in the DSM 5?

Or is it just a few traits? If it is just a few traits, some progress can probably be made in terms of understanding, comprehension and reconciliation. 

However, going through this list is often not enough. 

Here is what a lot of children of narcissists go through:
* Trauma symptoms
* Hightened anxiety, jumpiness, heightened hypervigilance, fear of seeing or having to deal with their parent
* Disturbed sleep, profound lack of sleep, jumpy and awake at the slightest sound
* Nightmares about their narcissistic parent hurting them or who seem elated at seeing them hurt
* Nightmares about their narcissistic parent stalking them
* Nightmares about adverse situations they want to forget
* Intrusive vivid memories about a traumatic event or events at inconvenient times
* Easily triggered by sights and sounds of traumatic events that featured their parent in the past
* Easily triggered by being around other family members that remind them of their narcissistic parent
* Easily triggered by hearing or seeing arguments, shouting, swearing, name-calling, loud voices, rage, belligerence, goading, taunting, threats, blackmail, gaslighting, arguments that are intensifying
* Easily triggered by love bombing (people coming on too strong, flatterers) 
* Easily triggered and depressed being around people who threaten abandonment of others (often resulting in the freeze trauma response)
* Easily triggered by people telling others to shut up or to stop talking
* Easily triggered by commanding, demanding, bossy people
* Easily trigered by individuals who show profound confirmation bias
* Easily triggered by people who pretend to be a victim
* Easily triggered by violence, violent movies, wars, war footage, thrillers
* Easily triggered by controlling, antagonistic, raging, arrogant people
* Sometimes triggered by competitions and games
* Sometimes triggered by triangulation
* Sometimes triggered by fireworks, loud banging noises, loud pops, fizzles
* Sometimes triggered by dangerous sports
* A profound sense that they need to heal the hurt and constant intrusive memories that they can't seem to stop on their own, and that seems to follow them around. Most victims of narcissists go to a counselor, psychologist or psychiatrist (and yes, many of them will suggest going "no contact" to keep your child from further slides into more trauma)
* A desperate need for peace in private life and in the world at large (peace being "the great healer")
* Severe cases: A profound feeling that you should be alone, that you can no longer deal with human beings
* Sometimes: body aches - all of the muscles of the body can freeze up, be effected, but otherwise it feels like the kind of body aches you get when you get the flu except they are there all of the time
* Often: Stomach aches, stomach upset, IBS, celiacs, and in extreme cases: nausea, vomiting with an inability to calm nerves enough to stop it
* Severe cases: Involuntary body movements (jerking, shivering, mimicing restless leg syndrome)
* Severe cases: Involuntary body freeze responses where you can't move, the body stiffens like a corpse, and can barely breathe (can get worse with someone shouting or making commands - there has been a lot of research into this trauma response lately - I'll be talking about this when I get to the trauma section of this blog)
* Severe cases: Suicide ideation, hopelessness
* Severe cases: Inability to ask for help or trust people in the helping professions
* Often: Heart problems: palpitations, pressure and tightness in the chest, heart rhythm problems. Heart disease is very common among victims of narcissistic abuse. Heart problems also include light-headedness, faintness, dizziness and respiratory distress. 
* Often: Headaches. In severe cases: Headaches that never go away, that go on day after day, week after week, month after month. Stress headaches and tension headaches are the most common and often come with tenderness in the scalp, neck and shoulders with fatigue. Can come with ocular symptoms such as sensitivity to light, eye strain, and eye pain. It can also mean the symptoms worsen when triggered. Doctors treating headache sometimes also suggest "no contact" to minimize the issues setting off the headaches, especially if a mental health counselor has also suggested it. 
* Extremely common: Autoimmune diseases. The most common are IBS, IBD, Crohn's, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Lupus, Asthma, Celiacs, and Thyroiditis.  
* Common: Increased risk for cancer. Most prevalent are gastrointenstinal cancers, female cancers, and skin cancers. More here and here. 
* Often when anxious or afraid: pacing, walking fast, repetetive motions
* Sometimes (moderate to severe cases): problems talking: stuttering, repetetive words, slurred speech, hoarseness, weak voice from shallow breathing, getting emotional or teary while talking because of the frustaration of getting their point across, difficulty finding the right words, losing train of thought, inability to speak (freeze response) about certain subjects. Trauma specialists can also suggest "no contact" when speech impediments show up in their patients.
* A desperate feeling that they need to heal from physical symptoms associated with trauma and PTSD 
 
Note: this is not a full list.

This list also doesn't necessarily mean your parent is a narcissist, so I have another answer for that. 

There are alot of other narcissistic traits that are not in the DSM, so I took the time to list the more important traits (with links) to be aware of, especially in close personal relationships, to help you decipher whether your parent really is a narcissist. 

Some other traits of narcissists are: 

* Tendendecy to become prejudiced. 
* They enjoy creating drama and chaos
* They often rage if they detect any criticism or difference of opinion from theirs - in other words they tend to think they are right all of the time and will not tolerate being shown they are wrong.
* They enjoy arguments that have no resolution. They turn arguments into personal attacks instead.
* They tend to have destructive arguing styles. 
* They tend to blame shift.
* They have a tendency to be cruel. 
* Narcissists will insist that they chronically have to have their own way
* As far as they are concerned, there is no place for compromise, co-operation or understanding; they have to have their own way. 
* They often play the victim if they aren't getting their way. 
* You may tend to feel invisible around them because narcissists are often too self centered, self focused, and self involved to notice that you are a different person with different traits.
* They tend to have extra-marital affairs and to be disloyal in general.
* Narcissists tend to be highly manipulative and controlling.
* They tend to feel more superior in comparison to other people.
* They cannot fathom that they are not superior to other human beings (delusions of grandeur)
* Narcissists feel that arguing gets them their way by wearing down the other person (zero-sum game, chronically dominant oriented)
* Narcissists feel that being dominant at all times is the only way they feel emotionally regulated
* Narcissists feel they must be dominant in order to enjoy a relationship.
* They tend to feel threatened by the success of others. 
* They tend to feel more jealousy and envy than other people do. 
* They tend to be intolerant of others except sycophants.
* Narcissists tend to be exploitive. 
* Narcissists tend to silence others or talk over them to control the narrative. 
* Narcissists tend to lie (a lot) to serve their reputation. They have no commitment to the truth. 
* Narcissists have no moral or ethical convictions, but tend to appear to have them to serve their reputation. They also display moral hypocrisy, i.e., holding others to saint-like ethical standards that they never practice themselves. 
* Narcissists tend to express more ingratitude about their relationships than satisfaction.
* When narcissists don't get their way, they tend to run smear campaigns on you.
* Narcissists tend to use the silent treatment on people closest to them to get their own way.
* They gaslight.
* Narcissists practice love bomb, devalue, discard - the cycle of abuse in close relationships and with at least one child.
* Narcissists can become highly retaliatory and vengeful. 
* Narcissists can turn to crime if they don't get their way.

These are "the basics" of how most narcissists relate to other human beings they are close to.

If your parent can compromise, and discuss issues without insisting they get their way, and they can argue points fairly and equitably, and still have empathy and consideration for your feelings, you may not want to close the door on them (they are likely to go through trauma by your "no contact"). 

Assuming your parent is not a narcissist, once trauma symptoms take hold, the nervous system goes into survival mode. The body and brain go into shock, the sympathetic nervous system releases cortisol and adrenaline, and the person finds themselves eventually "on guard" and hypervigilant to attacks. The initial phases may mean a freeze trauma response, a fight trauma response, a flee trauma response or less likely with a child a fawn trauma response.

The "fight trauma response" can have some controlling aspects to it, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are a narcissist unless they are in that mode most of the time. ... In other words, if their major traits are these: aggression, highly critical of you or others, argumentative, antagonistic, micro-managing or exceptionally controlling, disrespectful, lying, unempathetic ... all with an inability to take criticism or complaint without raging and/or threatening, but fighting back with a plethora of criticisms themselves - the latter being an important marker for narcissism since narcissism is primarily an "I can do what I want, but I'm going to make you miserable if you think you can do what you want. I'm going to control you and dominate you and call all of the shots - or else." - they may not say it exactly this way, but they'll say it in other ways. It is a major part of their personality disorder. 

Assuming they aren't a narcissist, in the beginning they try to avoid people and places as they try to absorb the loss. 

Then the grieving starts. And the confusion. Then persistent longing, distress, grief that has no closure, often social stigmas (usually for both parent and child, depending on the social circles), and high levels of stress and depression. Sometimes these set of symptoms, if they don't let up, mean gettting PTSD. 

PTSD often comes with triggers (which are a short hand way of saying panic attacks and anxiety). This can mean that if they are ever in your company again, they will likely feel highly anxious and distrusting. They may be barely be able to speak. They may feel they can't speak, that they are walking on eggshells. They may cry and walk away from you. They may feel frozen and unresponsive. 

However, the opposite can happen too, where they want to talk issues out with you. They may suggest therapy for both of you. They may show that they are up for resolution, compromise, accomodation, short visits or a long term commitment to healing wounds each has inflicted on the other, openness to understanding your point of view - Note: narcissists can't do any of these things. 

In fact, if you tell a non-narcissistic parent that you need a break, they will understand and sometimes tell you that they'd like to resolve issues with you at what ever future date you'd like to schedule something.

If you never do it, even though the door is open, what do you want, if anything, that is causing this rift to be on-going? 

Because if it's control over your parent, it won't work, and in general, most therapists will say there is no room for parents to have a major agenda to control an adult child, or for an adult child to control a parent once both people are adults. 

Part of a parent understanding an adult child is letting go of control and expectation, and part of a child understanding who their parent is letting go of control and expectation too. If you have children and  you're too controlling, your child may be controlling too (they've learned it from you), so letting go of control has a better chance of mending a rift than increasing control. An agenda to control can also make you blind to who the other person is. 

In general, agendas get in the way of truly knowing and understanding a person. If other reasons over-take, a relationship will never be satisfying. 

If it's a toxic family matter where your uncle is a pedophile and you are not getting support and safety from your parent (or are blamed for the incidents instead), it's another matter which I bring up in the next section.  

It is hard to re-establish a relationship or reconcile after "no contact", especially if your parent went through trauma after your "no contact". The bond between parent and child is usually strong, so strong that breaches to it will usually cause trauma symptoms. 

In contrast, a true narcissisic parent can get over relationships by the usual mechanisms they use of "induce guilt first, and when realizing the relationship is over, deny wrong-doing, blame the other person 100 percent, and then run smear campaigns on them" (even if nothing they say is true). It's the default way all narcissists deal with relationships that split apart.

They also aren't invested in relationships. They are in relationships to control and dominate other people which makes it easy for them to reject people they can't control, or to get over them if the other person goes "no contact" on them. They are blind to who other people are mostly, and what their thoughts and feelings are because relationships are nothing more than power grabs and projections - it's what relationships have always been for them. 

Most likely in their smear campaigns you will get projections of how they behave (in other words, they tell you that you and others that you have their worst qualities because they do not know you). It's a defense mechanism that works very well for them and keeps them shielded from most feelings of heartbreak. 

And they will also think that your "no contact" is the way they do their "discards" of other people, to manipulate people and get more power over them. 

One big difference between narcissists and non-narcissists is that narcissists seem to get over relationships really fast, being haughty and calloused afterward, have attitudes like "blech, I never liked him or her anyway!" (even when it comes to their own child), and they party or indulge themselves with spending, cruises, parties, drinking and drugging, clothes, and covorting with your enemies or with people who have hurt you - all another sign of narcissism. 

In contrast, parents who are not narcissists will be going through a tremendous amount of grief and trauma. 

If you want to reconcile with a narcissist, they often think you want to have domination or power over them (that's because that is what they do when they try to get others back in their life). So they are likely to reject you. 

If they let you back, they may appreciate the narcissistic supply for awhile, but from knowing the stories of adult children of narcissists, the adult children were pretty severely punished soon afterward for going "no contact" in the first place. Their parent's retaliation became the major theme of their life shortly afterwards, which of course, usually means the adult child is dealing with more abuse which mostly turns into a life long rift or a lot more trauma. 

If they pursue or sweet talk you, it's often to get you back in role serving them (the roles are discussed in this post) or to punish you. 

Real child abuse survivors often find themselves wanting to get away from arrogant people, aggressive hostile people, conflict oriented people, argumentative types, controlling personalities, micro-managers, people who threaten other people to get their way, and antagonistic oriented people. They just want peace and safety, and that's their real reason for "no contact" - not to punish the parent.

And who is at the top for threatening, hostile, arrogant, antagonistic traits? Narcissists. In fact, even if you don't have many of trauma symptoms (yet), with enough exposure to narcissists, you will start to feel some of them gradually and it can get to the point of a disability. That's the other legitimate reason for "no contact". 

Most people do not want either a parent's control or their need for a role, and it's why a lot of adult children go "no contact" too, with the real narcissistic parents at the advice of a therapist (trauma therapists especially advise it because you cannot heal when narcissists are in your life - narcissists cause trauma in most people via the traits they have, the most difficult traits I listed above). 

Discussion about toxic dysfunctional families:

What are toxic families? According to Google AI these are some of the ingredients that make up a toxic family (copied in dark red): 

A toxic family is a system of relationships characterized by consistent, dysfunctional behaviors—such as manipulation, emotional or physical abuse, and control—that harm members' well-being and mental health. Instead of offering support, these families often create environments of fear, guilt, and stress, frequently causing members to feel drained, belittled, or trapped.

Some other things discussed in the article are lack of boundaries, manipulation and gaslighting, emotional/verbal abuse, conditional love, constant conflict, substance use/addiction, triangulation, scapegoat/golden child roles are evident. 

This is the definition of a dysfunctional family according to another Goole AI article:

A dysfunctional family is a family unit characterized by chronic conflict, poor communication, neglect, or abuse, where relationships are impaired and members cannot find support or safety. Such families often lack healthy boundaries, feature rigid roles, and exhibit behaviors like addiction, emotional unavailability, or excessive control. 

Some other things discussed in the article are poor communication, neglect and abuse, unhealthy boundaries, lack of empathy, rigid roles, substance abuse or mental illness, poor emotional regulation. 

If I had my druthers, I'd switch the definitions as I personally tend to think of toxic extended families as full of members who are dealing with rigid roles and extremely unhealthy emotional dynamics in their own special way: through drinking and drugging, having a mental illness or personality disorder, PTSD or C-PTSD, full of both sycophants and rebellious members, incest or pedophilia, members who avoid their family, insufficient parenting, toxic emotional passtimes like making a laughing stock out of a member, hate speech, marked by more extra-marital affairs than loyalty to a partner, marked by more divorces than "sticking together", parents estranged from children, sibling estrangement, criminal behaviors, kids with conduct disorder, lots of poor conflict resolution skills, kids with debilitating auto-immune diseases, members who steal from other members, way too much conflict and drama, lots of unreasonable expectations, more arguing and unsolicited advice than pleasant conversation, lots of silencing of members, way too much "walking on eggshells", an entitled cruel older generation only concerned with outside appearances, marked by very little morality if any at all - basically families that are a mess and traumatizing. 

I know at least two families with all of these issues going on in their family, personally and in depth, and the family in the movie, August Osage County, is so very, very tame compared to these two families. One stands out with many estranged daughters (women and underage girls), and the other with incest and a murder in it. They are both generationally wealthy families, so what does that tell you? 

If your parent can deal with you being an ex-member of such a family and having just a relationship with you without other family members present, then that's a step in the right direction and an acknowledgement of why you want to back off and navigate your own life without the family's  interference and influence. Insisting you get along with abusive, or criminal, or incestuous members is never okay.

I have no problem, personally, with withdrawing from families like these. They are very hard on members, especially children. And who needs, as an adult, to expose one's own children to this and make a mess of their lives and mental health too? - this becomes the more important reason to go very, very low contact or no contact at all. If you have parents who emotionally abuse you and treat you like dirt under their feet, that can teach your children and other family members to treat you this way too. 

You can, of course, try to keep contact with a few members, but often families like this are so enmeshed and deeply enabling of criminal and cruel behaviors that it can mean "no contact" in the end, with all of them (except, perhaps, other estranged members).  

Also families with this much toxicity and dysfunctionality in them, usually have, at their core, the worst members sticking together and condoning each other's child abuse, or pretending there is no alcoholism or incest in the family, or making the family unsafe by excusing and enabling members for committing crimes. 

The worst part of it all is that these are usually the members who retaliate and plan revenges for  members who are in pain from family members' actions, and can no longer tolerate the egregious illegalities or cruelties, excuses, and enabling of the bad actors in their family. 

If adult children cannot find support, peace, love, affection, reasonable expectations in terms of tolerance and are controlled in negative ways, and every step of the way about fulfilling perfectly normal aspirations and decisions about their own life, they have a right to divorce their families and find it elsewhere. 

That's the way I feel about it. 

Upcoming: 

In another post I'll be talking about the positives and negatives of what I call "The No Contact Revolution" with Millennials and Gen Z leading the way on it.

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