Don't Narcissists Care About Hurting You?

 

"Mom Does Not Love. The Things Not Said"

Do narcissists care about hurting you? No. 

Is the reason why narcissists don't care about hurting you have to do with their lack of empathy? Yes.

Is the reason why narcissists dont care about hurting you have to do with their inability to form deep connections and sometimes prioritize your feelings over theirs? Yes.

Is the reason for narcissists' inability to have empathy for you have to do with atrophied parts of the brain, particularly the anterior insula and prefrontal cortex? Yes. 

When you feel distressed, do narcissists interpret your feelings as a nuisance for them? Yes (or a burden, an imposition, or inconvenience). What this link reveals is that your distress fails to trigger a comforting response from them, so you often feel alone with your feelings, that they aren't important to the narcissist. 

   What this link also reveals is that they can also respond with anger or invalidation to your pain. Common responses are also dismissal and minimization, blame and playing the victim so that your attention reverts to them. 

Do narcissists sometimes punish you for feeling hurt? Yes. Reasons why include feeling they are being criticized (narcissists are typically emotionally highly dysregulated, often with rage and indignation, when they feel they are being criticized resulting in narcissistic injury), a feeling that they are losing control of what you do, what you say and how you express yourself which can also trigger narcissistic rage in them, especially if they feel it is hurting their ego or challenging their superiority or ego-inflated narrative, and if you feel hurt because of something they did (because narcissists refuse to be held accountable for anything). 

What are types of punishments narcissists indulge in when you are feeling hurt by them? From the link: they escalate hurting you more as opposed to comforting you. They often stonewall or give you the silent treatment. They often gaslight and then blame-shift. They withold affection. They guilt-trip. They bait you to try to get you to react with anger or shame so that they can call you "the problem". 

What are types of punishments that malignant narcissists indulge in when you are feeling hurt by them? From the link: They often escalate abuse to regain dominance. They do the same kinds of things run-of-the-mill narcissists do, but they tend to be much more destructive, weaponizing everything they think they can, to get you to stop talking about being hurt by them. Escalating rage is common and dangerous in the hands of malignant narcissists.  

Do narcissists ever do double-takes later in terms of abusing you because you felt hurt by them? No. From the link: They are not capable of it because they do not make a point of being perceptive of your perspectives and why you might feel the way you do, plus they don't want to consider it because they find remorse and double takes as a weakness which would compromise their feelings of superiority. 

When you feel you can no longer tell a narcissist how you feel, working out resolutions is not possible. What that link reveals: meaningful dialogue about how you feel requires respect from the other person, and narcissists do not respect people who are hurt by them - they will not consider their own accountability, or any form of perspective-taking to understand where you are coming from. You will get blame-shifting, lack of empathy, and a competition where the narcissist will make it clear that they have to win at controlling you and controlling the narrative, and that your being hurt by them is trying to control them to feel guilt, and a "flawed perspective" of their intentions, the former being another "gaslighting attempt". 

Do narcissists understand that they hurt others, even egregiously? Yes, but they just don't care, and they refuse to react to the harm they cause in a way that is helpful or healing. From the link: they justify hurting you. They put up defenses right away, failing to recognize or verbalize any harm they have caused you. They minimize the impact. They often tell you that you are "over-reacting" or are "too sensitive" or that "your perceptions are flawed" (a type of gaslighting). They may rewrite the narrative and blame you for being hurt by their actions. Some narcissists pretend at feeling remorse to hoover you back or to get you from leaving, but most often they don't mean it. In fact, they refuse to feel any remorse if they feel they can get away with it, and instead of feeling remorse, they may escalate abusing you if they think you are trying to make them accountable. "You need to be punished", "the consequences are --" and naming something that will hurt you, threats to take something from you, would be signs, but that tends to be a malignant narcissist's or sociopath's way as run-of-the-mill narcissists are more careful not to label their punishments, threats, consequences, retaliations, abuses, rages, smear campaigns, discards and silent treatments as punishments, or desires to hurt you, so that they can deny they punished you or tried to hurt you at all if they want you back in the future - it is the ultimate gaslighting and hoovering trick: "Why would you ever think I'd want to punish you or hurt you!? Who do you think I am? You must be crazy to think that!"
   They have little to no capacity to respond in a healthy manner to you being hurt by them, and eventually discussing how they treat you becomes unproductive, if not dangerous for you.  What that link reveals: you are never likely to get an apology and any abuse, punishment or retaliation that you are receiving as it relates to them hurting you is likely to escalate. 

How do covert vulnerable narcissists act when you tell them they hurt you? What this link reveals: Covert vulnerable narcissists overreact to criticism to the point where even mild constructive feedback is perceived as a "humiliating, ego-shattering attack". They can also perceive a criticism as an "absolute rejection." However, most people don't know this because narcissists feel so free to criticize others. 
   How they deal with criticism is different from the way grandiose overt narcissists operate. So it becomes impossible to talk to covert vulnerable narcissists about the slightest hurt or issue you've received from them without severe consequences. Some of those consequences include the DARVO tactic, passive aggressive consequences like the silent treatment, deliberately feigning forgetfulness that it's your birthday or other holiday event, or deliberately slacking on promises they made to you, feigned helplessness, feigned victimhood to avoid accountability, guilt-tripping, trying to make you totally responsible for their moods, the attacks they perpetrate, and their well-being.
   Covert vulnerable narcissists operate from a victim mentality, and the more covert narcissists hurt you, the more they play the victim. This manipulation is to get you serving them, just as it is with all narcissists.
   The manipulation tends to work remarkably well, especially since most people are likely to get into "a rescue mode" and are empathetic. However, it does not work long term, especially as you begin to realize they use the victim card any time you have an issue with their behavior. It becomes more like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" (seeing the manipulation behind claiming they are a victim). 
   However, they actually really do feel victimized in the moment when you have trouble with their behavior or put boundaries in place, however if they are highly critical of others, they don't believe they are doing any damage to the other person - or they believe it is justified, a pre-emptive self protection, or a justified retaliation for any resistance you may have to their control. 
   With malignant vulnerable narcissism, there tends to be a marked bully-victim cycle as well as a more sudden shift from "nice" to "punishing", from calm to blinding rage, more sadistic consequences for the slightest sense that you may be criticizing them or putting up a boundary, quite a bit more projection (blaming you for all of the sins they commit), and since many of them are violent, they can go from being violent towards you to victim stances ("Why don't you help me?", "Why don't you care about me?"). Malignant vulnerable narcissists can be dangerous.
   It can be hard to tell the difference between vulnerable narcissism from malignant vulnerable narcissism because they both act covertly, but the differences are spelled out HERE. The main way to tell the difference is that there is an element of cruelty, sadism and a definite punishing retaliatory mindset to the malignant type. At any rate, it can be exhausting trying to figure out what type they are without counseling or without researching the different types. If you feel they are trying to punish you or destroy you in some way (career, financially, self esteem, in belonging to a common family or friendship group, or resorting to crimes to hurt you), you are probably dealing with the malignant type (and no, malignant narcissists do not, and cannot change - the chances for "genuine" change are extremely, extremely  low - if they attend therapy, they are likely to revert back to the way they were before with new tools for more destructive behavior).
   Therefore, talking to any form of covert narcissist about anything interpersonal does not make sense, and especially talking about how you feel, or how they have hurt you. We do make mistakes sometimes because we don't always know we are talking to narcissists, but if you get a strong reaction and a victim mentality, you can usually make a bet it is due to covert vulnerable narcissism or malignant vulnerable narcissism, and decide how you will discuss things going forward. 

If a narcissist cannot hear you or treat you with respect after hurting you, who do you talk to? What the link reveals: Mental health practitioners, specialized support groups, trusted friends or family members. 

Is the only thing that keeps narcissists from hurting you more is their image and reputation? Yes, but it is not the only thing that holds them back. What that link reveals: Image and reputation management often come first and are part of every narcissist's obsession, but they also don't like losing the steady stream of narcissistic supply and the role you supply. If they hurt you too much, they realize they will lose you and the control of what you say and reveal about them, and since they are terrified of shame and the exposure of their abusive rageful side, they often opt to not go too far into hurting you. For some narcissists, fear of legal and financial repurcussions can also be part of the picture. 
   Having hesitations about hurting you is not part of a sociopath's make up however, so if they deeply and swiftly escalate hurting you, they are likely to have some Antipersonality Disorder traits. And note: narcissists can go sociopathic, especially if they are deeply enabled by others. One way you tell if you are dealing with a malignant narcissist (a person with both narcissistic and socopathic traits) is that they get narcissistic supply out of raging, frightening, and threatening you, and they tend to show sadism in either speech or deeds. They also let you know they hate you and that you deserve the worst treatment if you do not follow their orders. 
   In other words, be careful, as not all people who show the major traits of narcissism hold back on hurting you, especially if they feel their reputation, as well as the control and domination they have over you, is at stake. 

Narcissists don't care if they hurt their children either, right? Right. What that link reveals:
   Some of the hurt they cause to their children is intentional, and some of it is unintentional. The unintentional hurt they cause comes from being unempathetic, extremely self centered, and egocentric.
   Affection is given as a reward for compliance, and not for who the child is.
   Children feel they are only loved when they perform duties for their narcissistic parent.
   Narcissists will still balk at accountability when their child is hurt, and the narcissistic parent will still alter reality (gaslight their child), blame-shift, mock or rage at the child for being hurt.
   This often means that a child's safety, emotional needs and a child's milestones and accomplishments are often ignored unless the parent can use the milestones and accomplishments to make themselves look good and infallible to others.
   The consequence for a child being parented by a narcissist is that they often feel their feelings and emotions are invisible to their parent, and that they must sacrifice these parts of themselves to serve to their parent. What this link reveals: children often try hard to suppress their emotions and authentic selves, or adopt a "false self" to feel safe with their parent. Note: adopting a false self or mirroring the narcissist's opinions, abuse tactics, ways of relating, and prejudices can create narcissism in the child.
   Children also often adopt hypervigilence and fawning to keep safe.
   They also often feel trauma bonded with their parent too.
   Chronic attempts to reach the parent's perfection standards in deeds and emotions causes deep anxiety, and if they find they can never please their parent, they can develop CPTSD. Once a child develops CPTSD, suppressing emotional expression effects the nervous system and can produce either dysregulated emotions ("emotional storms"), living with emotions alone, dissociation, or emotional numbing (unreactive). 

How about narcissistic leaders of nations? Do they care if they hurt their own populace and the populations of other nations? Not really. What that link reveals: They look at it as "a necessary byproduct or collateral damage in the pursuit of their personal goals." 

How about if you tell a narcissist that it won't make your relationship better to punish you? Will they think about what you said? No. What that link reveals: It will rarely lead to changed behavior or self reflection. They typically believe you need to do the self reflecting, and change your behavior because they look at themselves as "the superior" in most relationships (i.e. the one who controls, dominates, is in charge of telling you what to do, and defining what the relationship is and what they determine are your responsibilities towards them, and any deviation from that is looked upon by them as "your moments of insanity or incompetence" or insubordination).
   They are not out to build a healthy relationship. They are out to control you, and if you tell them that they will make the relationship worse by punishing you, and the trust you have in them disappear, they will use what they know about you in this regard to inflict more pain. 

If you ask the narcissist kindly not to punish you or hurt you, what do they usually do? What that link reveals: they rarely stop the behavior. Instead they view your request as a vulnerability and will generally use DARVO and gaslighting tactics, plus increase the punishments (they look at the request as a boundary you are trying to set with them, and it can lead to narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury, as they feel entitled to control you - as in the scene above, the superiority complex they have assumes that they have a right to control you and dominate your decisions, even about personal boundaries).
   Obviously this can be a major issue for us if they are a malignant narcissist who is a domestic violence offender, a criminal narcissist, a paranoid narcissist who believes everyone is out to either compete with them or hurt them, and narcissists in public offices. 

What do narcissists think they get or achieve when they hurt other people? What that link reveals: They hurt other people to regain or maintain control of you, and to restore their self esteem.
   However, psychologists Dr. Ramani Durvasula and Dr. Les Carter have remarked in their videos that they hurt you to make themselves feel they are better than you, that by making you feel worse, they feel better in comparison. Narcissists are always in some sort of competitive frame of mind, so if they feel better than you do, even if they had a hand in making you feel worse, they feel they have won a "happiness competition". This is also referred to in psychology circles as a "zero sum game". 

Do narcissists ever put in the effort to stop hurting others? It is extremely rare, so no, on the whole they do not. What that link reveals: If they try, it's never really a genuine and sustained effort. They have litlle motivation to change because of their defense mechanisms, lack of emotional empathy, and because they are often deeply enabled by people around them. They also believe they will always get their own way, and that they have the upper hand in most situations. 

Does a narcissist hurt a lot of people during their life? Yes. What that link reveals in terms of who gets hurt the most: romantic partners and spouses, their children, their siblings, and their co-workers. Most narcissists know they cause pain and distress to others, but their makeup is such that they almost always prioritize their own satisfactions and desires over the well-being of others. 

Is it wise to try to leave narcissists who punish you for feeling hurt by them? Yes. What that link reveals: Even though narcissists cannot communicate about issues regarding their hurting or abusing others without resorting to negative reactions like rage and punishing (narcissists know they hurt others, but they aren't in the habit of ever admitting it), leaving narcissists over issues like this can present dangers.
   Initiating a split takes careful planning (I usually suggest domestic violence services to assess the dangers of the particlar person you are trying to leave, like whether they are the malignant brand, and the types of things you should take with you when you leave, as every person's situation is different). Narcissists can't even admit to themselves that they drove you away because you were continually hurt by them, instead resorting to smear campaigns like: "She left because she's crazy and a constant basket case", or "He left because he's selfish and never cared how I felt" (which is a type of DARVO), or "She left because I got tired of listening to her problems". They will never recognize the pain they caused you verbally, but if you return, they will punish you for leaving over the pain you felt (image preservation takes precedence). In other words, they thought you should "shut up and endure the pain without complaint". 

How about when it comes to narcissists feeling pain over something you did? Do they expect you to care about causing them pain when they don't care about causing you pain? Quote from Google AI: "Yes, narcissists expect you to care about their pain while ignoring yours."  Another quote from the same article: "They often demand that you prioritize their feelings, validate their struggles, and comfort their distress while giving up your own." - says it all.

After I came across the answer to the last question, I personally am done with this section, but you are free to pursue your own questions.

SOME FURTHER REPERCUSSIONS OF
NARCISSISTS NOT CARING IF THEY HURT OTHERS
APART TO WHAT IT DOES TO THEIR REPUTATION
AND THEIR ABILITY TO OBTAIN POSITIVE FORMS OF
NARCISSISTIC SUPPLY

What I have written in the previous section mainly has to do with narcisists in relationships with spouses, partners, and children, but when we take this into other types of human-to-human contact, it presents a serious problem. For instance:

* Let us say that a narcissistic person causes a serious car accident. They may not care enough about the occupants of the other car enough to call an ambulance. They may instead, be focused on trying to make the accident appear to law enforcement to be the occupants of the other car at fault entirely.  

* Another situation: A narcissist with sociopathic traits (a malignant narcissist) rises to power and starts an invasion of a neighboring country. Since he does not care about hurting other people, and since with the sociopathic traits he doesn't particularly care what it does to his reputation either, he commits war crimes by killing civilians, even children and babies. 
   However, he does care a great deal if people want to hurt him, so he kills people who he fantasizes want to kill him.
   He has a bunker built that he and his comrades can hide in. Eventually, the war ends because there are too many casualties. The soldiers either defect to the other side or march home despite what some of their commanders tell them to do. In fact, even the commanders start marching home at some point, refusing to fight for the malignant narcissist. 
   Most of the public wants the malignant narcissist out of power. When he is caught in his bunker, he acts like a victim and cries for mercy. 

* Another manifestation: A narcissistic person in the heat of an argument kills his mate in a rage. He didn't mean to kill her. He just wanted to hurt her (and frankly, he went too far in hurting her because his narcissism means he doesn't care if he hurts her). 
   He feels persecuted when a judge holds him accountable. 

Narcissists aren't just bad for their mates and families. They can be parasitic in society. 

FURTHER READING:

Do Narcissists Feel Guilty About Abusing Loved Ones?

It can be hard for people to realize how shallow narcissistic love is. - by Elinor Greenberg for Psychology Today

3 Phrases Narcissistic Partners Use During Conflicts

Words that let them withhold empathy, inflict guilt, and shift blame. - by Erin Leonard, Ph.D., for Psychology Today

SOME VIDEOS ON THIS TOPIC:

Do narcissists know they hurt you? - by psychologist, Dr. Ramani (You Tube)

Proof narcissists KNOW their behavior is unacceptable - by psychologist, Dr. Ramani (You Tube)

Unbound: Why Narcissists Need to Hurt You - by psychologist, Les Carter for Surviving Narcissism (You Tube)

The next two videos are from a Facebook public account (called "No More Narcissists"), and require you to sign into Facebook to see them, but they explain a lot of the issues you will encounter succinctly: 

4 Reasons Why Narcissists Feel Nothing After Hurting You

5 Insane Behaviors That Instantly Identify a Narcissist

FOUND ON FACEBOOK:

Family Obligation and the Scapegoat. Do You Owe Your Narcissistic Family Anything?

In this post, I ask some questions, link to articles, have a further reading section plus a couple of articles from Google at the bottom of the page. 

Anyway, do you feel you are, or might be, the family scapegoat, and do your family members feel that you owe them a lot? 

If you want to check out if you were the scapegoat of your family you can always get the book, Rejected, Blamed and Shamed by Rebecca C. Mandeville. Does the questionairre in the book describe you? 

If you don't want the book, you can always go to Laura K. Connell's site to decipher if you can relate to the 9 signs of scapegoating. 

Or do you score high on the ACEs test? - that test is on-line, and that test can give you a sense of how you were treated as a child. 

If you were scapegoated by a parent, parents, a step parent, or a sibling (and your parent took your sibling's side) repeatedly, your family may feel that you owe them something, or even a lot more than you can realistically give them, or want to give them, but what, if anything, do you really owe them?

And have you tried to fulfill some of the obligations they thought were owed to them in the past? Did you still feel hurt, exhausted, and as though nothing was enough? 

Being scapegoated is a situation where your family has decided to blame you for what ever dysfunctions exist in the family. Most scapegoating families accuse you of being "crazy", or mentally ill, or "mentally inept", or not "doing things right" repeatedly, and according to them, that makes you the problem for anything and everything that goes wrong in the family. 

Most scapegoating families reject you in one way or another too, whether that means silencing you (and what you went through), invalidating you (and what you went through), giving you the silent treatment, neglecting you, chronic lack of attention while growing up, ignoring you and your needs, showing you a lot of contempt or showing you that they favor your siblings, discarding you or outright rejecting you, hurting you on purpose (whether that is emotionally, psychologically, verbally or physically ... another link on emotional, psychological and verbal abuse and ... another link on physical abuse), ignoring you or raging at you any time you want to compromise or find a solution which satisfies all parties, or when you become withdrawn, sad or emotional. 

Scapegoating families also try to isolate their scapegoats. By calling you crazy, inept, or mentally challenged, they press other members not to listen to you, or engage with you (because if they were to listen to you, you might talk about all of the rejections you've experienced, as in the above paragraph). They want other people to treat you differently too, and if they can't get those family members and friends blaming and shaming you too, they try to convince them why it is necessary. 

By scapegoating you, they get to go around feeling absolved of any faults, short-comings, short-sightedness, fairness, kindness, investigative inclinations, self-blame, psychological issues they have, toxic actions they take, abuses they make towards you and others, thinking beyond the usual "you are at fault" monologue they have always adopted and given you, or frankly, any kind accountability at all.

In my opinion, that's enough service for a lifetime, and if it was on-going and severe, several lifetimes. 

If you feel obligated or indebted to them, perhaps consider they are highly likely to keep scapegoating you. 

Here are also some links as to why you don't owe them anything:

How to recover from being the family scapegoat - by Laura K. Connell (her own website)

Signs of toxic people and how to deal with them - by Laura K. Connell (her own website)

The Hidden Trauma of Neglect in the Narcissistic Family.
Neglect is the most common form of abuse. - by Julie Hall, reviewed by Gary Drevitch for Psychology Today

The Narcissist's 5 Parenting Rules
Narcissistic parents often share common behaviors. - by Jamie Cannon, MS, reviewed by 
Jessica Schrader for Psychology Today

Narcissistic Parents: Everyday Things They Twist Into Guilt Trips - by Jerry Wise, MA, MS, CLC (You Tube)

Narcissistic Parents: The Most Personal Choices You Should Never Debate With Them - by Jerry Wise, MA, MS, CLC (You Tube)

Why Scapegoat Survivors Might Want to Question the “Angel” on Their Shoulders - by psychotherapist, Jay Reid (You Tube)

Ungrateful Children: Overcoming The Debt Your Parents Believe You Owe Them
Understanding and dealing with the false sense of duty - by Anastasia Summersault for Medium

In Panic, We Human Sacrifice, Scapegoat - by Professor Sam Vaknin (note: Professor Sam Vaknin was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, so he talks with the perspective of someone who has the disorder, as well as citing research on the disorder) (You Tube)

Mimetic Scapegoating in Narcissistic Households (Mimetic Desire, Violence) - by Professor Sam Vaknin (see above) (You Tube)

You don't owe your narcissistic parents! - by Jerry Wise, MA, MS, CLC (You Tube)

Narcissistic parents tend to treat their children as if they owe them - Mental Healness (You Tube)

If you are a parent and want to make up with your child, you can go to my post HERE where I talk about actions that may work. 

"Why do narcissistic parents feel children owe them?": Google AI (in blue):
   Narcissistic parents feel their children owe them lifelong obedience, attention, and care because they view parenting as a transactional investment rather than an unconditional responsibility. They fundamentally believe the child exists to serve their ego, validate their self-worth, and fulfill unachieved personal ambitions.
   The expectation of this "payback" stems from a few core psychological dynamics:
   * The "Gift of Life" Fallacy: Narcissistic parents often use the mere fact of bringing a child into the world as an ultimate, unpayable debt. They use this to demand unending gratitude, disregarding that the child did not ask to be born and that parents are legally and morally obligated to provide care.
   * Transactional Affection: In their minds, every basic need met—such as food, shelter, or clothing—is framed as an extraordinary sacrifice rather than a baseline duty. They use this "generosity" as leverage to induce guilt and demand subservience.
   * Narcissistic Supply: Narcissists require constant external validation to maintain their fragile self-esteem. They view their children as captive audiences and extensions of themselves. When a child asserts independence, the parent feels robbed of this required attention and views it as an act of betrayal.
   * Projection of Regret: These parents often view their children as do-overs for their own missed opportunities. When a child pursues their own path, the parent subconsciously projects their own feelings of loss and expects the child to forfeit their freedom to make up for the parent's regrets.
   Understanding these dynamics can help in recognizing that the expectation of indebtedness is a manipulation tactic meant to retain control. For resources and support regarding this type of family dynamic, you can explore the Out of the FOG  network or find peer support on communities like the Reddit Raised by Narcissists forum.

"Owing narcissistic parents": Google AI (excerpt, partial, in blue):
   Children do not owe narcissistic parents anything for raising them. You did not consent to be born, and providing basic necessities like food, housing, and schooling is a parent's legal and moral obligation, not a favor.
   Narcissistic parents manipulate this dynamic to create artificial, lifelong debt.
   Understanding the dynamics of this, and how to unburden yourself from the guilt, involves several key areas:
   * The "Debt" Trap: Narcissistic parents often weaponize the sacrifices they made to keep you subservient.
   * Basic Needs vs. Gifts: Providing a roof over your head and food to eat are minimum legal requirements to avoid charges of child neglect. These are not "gifts" you are required to pay back.
   * Control Tactics: They often use guilt, obligation, and emotional enmeshment to maintain their "narcissistic supply," acting as if your mere existence is a service they provided.
   What You Actually "Owe" Them
   * In a healthy, functional relationship, love and respect are freely given and earned, not extorted. With narcissistic parents, your primary responsibility is to your own health and well-being. You do not owe them obedience, unlimited access to your life, or the sacrifice of your own happiness.

"Do you owe a family anything if you were scapegoated by them?" Google AI (excerpt, partial, in blue):
   You do not owe your family anything. When you are scapegoated, you are subjected to emotional abuse and unfair blame to protect the family's dysfunction. You have no moral or ethical obligation to maintain contact, provide support, or endure further harm from people who mistreat you.
   Navigating the emotional aftermath of family scapegoating requires prioritizing your own well-being. Several factors can help you process your situation:
   * Unconditional Obligation is a Myth: Children do not owe their parents or family members anything just for being raised or provided with basic necessities. Healthy family dynamics are built on mutual respect, safety, and love—not on a transactional debt for taking care of you.
   * No Contact is a Valid Choice: Stepping away, also known as going "no contact," is a completely valid and often necessary tool to heal from chronic scapegoating. You are allowed to protect your mental health by removing yourself from toxic or abusive environments.

FOUND ON FACEBOOK

A Domestic Violence Situation and Tale - from a well known Canadian Musician.

Hi everyone. Today I thought I'd share a video by J.P. Cormier. J.P. Cormier is a traveling musician from Canada and I've seen him in concert six times. Two of those times were with another musician by the name of Dave Gunning. You can catch a little of their music from a video on You Tube (Place: Celtic Colours International Festival. Song: Kate O’ The Gowrie. Arrangement: Dave Gunning and J.P. Cormier. Year: 2019).   

J.P. Cormier is a fantastic guitar player, and has admirable arrangements, songwriting skills, and does You Tube videos reviewing guitars, teaching various styles of playing, interviews and jam sessions with other musicians, and anything else he can think of. He's a highly acclaimed and well known musician in Canada. He is not as well-known in the USA, but frequently crosses the border to perform. 

Anyway, my husband, who also plays the guitar and is a multi-instrumentalist, likes to watch J.P.'s videos from time to time. And sometimes we watch them together. And was he surprised to come across a video from four years ago where J.P. Cormier discusses domestic violence and child abuse!

He had me sit down and watch it.  

So I thought I'd share that video with all of you too.

I appreciate J.P.'s candor and ability to talk about this subject without fear. I have a few comments following the video. 

See it here directly on You Tube:
"A Life in Music Ep. 69 - Showdown at the FU Corral"
or below:

Some of my comments:

People who commit domestic violence "often make themselves appear to be victimized by the partner they are actually abusing". - that quote and link is from Google AI. 

Victims of domestic violence can minimize the threat to themselves. - that link goes to DomesticShelters.org. 

Domestic violence victims can feel guilty for seeing their partner in jail. - that link also goes to DomesticShelters.org 

There are reasons why so few abusers change:

It is not very likely they will change - check this article from the National Abuse Hotline

Can Abusers Change? 5 Almost Impossible Obstacles Explained - by The Mend Project
- this article explains why:
* Perpetrators are in relationships to control the other person.  
* There is entitlement and double standards (i.e. "What's okay for me to do, isn't okay for you to do.")
* Family System bias (I usually call this "family prejudice", whether it be about choice of spouse, political leanings, weight, race, sex of person such as misogyny, disabilities, cultural leanings - usually there is something they've learned to be prejudiced about from their family of origin that is often multi-generational)
* Image control (undermining others to uphold status) - other articles refer to this as "efforts to achieve grandiosity at others' expense". 
* Low emotional IQ: "disinterest in others' emotions, resulting in controlling behaviors, lack of empathy, and defensiveness." - quote from the article. However, low emotional IQ can also be the result of brain chemistry in some perpetrators. 

My personal view on why narcissists tend not to change is all of these things, but I'll also add that when a person is mainly out to control others, dominate others and have power over others, they are not thinking about "how to treat others better", or "how to make up with others so that the relationship can grow and thrive", or even about "how to get along with others better". In other words, they are going after people and relationships for a totally different reason than the rest of us are. 

I also think part of the problem is that society is machine, utility, tool and toy oriented. We "use things" constantly to "make our lives easier and better". Somewhere in a budding abuser's brain, he or she got the idea that they can use people in the same way as they use a toy, a utility, a tool or a machine. If they see that it will work to a greater rather than lesser extent, they keep using people. 

People who use people to make their lives easier and better aren't looking at this "machine-person" or "toy-person", and trying to decipher its feelings. They are either thinking, "This toy or machine is working" or "not working". The person is either a useful toy or machine, or not a useful one.

They are either going to fix the toy-person or machine-person that works best for them, or in a way that "puts them back together the way they used to be." If they feel that the machine-person or toy-person will no longer work in the way they want it to again, or in the way that it used to, they have to make another choice. In fact, they are forced to make another choice.

And how do people treat toys and machines when they don't work the way want them to, or they used to, or are "supposed to"? Maybe they don't understand the mechanisms that make this toy or machine work or rebel. Someone who is rage-driven, control-driven and antagonistically driven as many perpetrators tend to be usually either gets mad at the machine or toy and stomps all over it, or throws it away in a fit of anger. And so: "Welcome to the world of domestic violence!" and for people in power who act like this, "Welcome to dictatorship!" too. 

Some questions/ruminations I have ... 

J.P. talks about pulling back from playing music performances with his wife (now ex), and playing with "guys" instead. "Pulling back" could have meant she was no longer making money, or that the music partnership was dissolving and that she didn't know what to do, or how to resolve it, or how to react, or what to do with her own music career. Maybe she couldn't think, and just found that her anger was building.

"Pulling back" might also mean, to some women, "fear of being abandoned, of marriage failure, of marriage dissolution, of marital money being only controlled by him, of marital harmony only controlled by him, of marital status only being controlled by him".

For someone who might be controlling, having the partner in control instead might have been interpreted as "deeply threatening", "deeply unnerving", "deeply provoking", or "of feeling threatened". Even if it is a "phantom threat", or a "possible threat", or a "threat of possibilities" of more withdrawal, an insecure person might lash out? Might turn a "phantom threat" into a "real threat" in her own mind?

Is it possible that this was the main impetus for "the scenes" in the room where he was sleeping? 

Granted, it's hard to figure out as he never really knew either. I'm making a few hypotheses based on what I know about "perpetrator behaviors", and the fact that these behaviors are often based on "control" of another person, or feeling "out of control" or "not controlling enough" when it comes to other people. 

Also, he was allegedly a victim of child abuse. And as a child, he learned to be afraid, and to walk away, as he saw that nothing was to be gained by violence, or sticking around to fight back. "Staying, getting mad, and fighting back can kill a person" because the body is fragile, and you can't be sure you are "saving someone" when you are fighting them at the same time, even in self defense.

He also says that guns and knives were pointed at him when he was a child. He admits in the video that his mind was filled with panic and fear, which was, perhaps, why his first instinct was to "get safe" by locking the door on his wife when she was trying to get back in the room. 

It sounds like his mind went wild, possibly envisioning guns and knives and other weapons pointed at him, similar to what he went through in childhood. 

Childhood memories and childhood trauma can have a big impact on how we react when we are adults - having guns and knives pointed at you, and being a victim of violence as a child, can impact the way you deal with scenes that might seem similar in adulthood. 

Anyway, those are some of my own thoughts on the matter ... 

Here are some more links:

Am I likely to be abused no matter what, i.e. be a victim of domestic violence again? Abuse escalates; it's very rare for it to de-escalate, whether that's physical abuse or emotional abuse or both. In other words, it tends increase in danger and in introduction to other types of abuses, not decrease.

Forgiving abusers is often not suggested (from Google AI):

Forgiving abusers is not required for healing and is often not suggested, as it can hinder recovery by enabling continued abuse, reducing necessary consequences for the abuser, and forcing premature closure. Trauma recovery focuses on the survivor’s safety and needs, making forgiveness a personal choice rather than a necessity, say Psychology Today. 

Key reasons why forgiving an abuser is often not recommended include:

* Risk of Further Abuse: Premature or forced forgiveness can lead to safety risks, enabling continued abuse.

* Lack of Accountability: Forgiving too quickly, especially without genuine repentance from the abuser, can remove necessary consequences for their actions.

* Hindering Healing: It may interrupt the necessary process of dealing with emotions like anger and grief, acting as a form of self-betrayal, notes YouTube.

* Not an Obligation: Survivors are not obligated to forgive to heal, and doing so should not be seen as a mandatory step in therapy.

The Truth About Forgiving Abuse With Valerie Hudson

Have you been told to forgive an emotionally abusive husband? Here's what you need to know. - by Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast

Going back to abusers and living in a cycle of constant reconciliations after abuse are often not suggested by therapists. 

Do a lot of adult children who have been abused or assalted during childhood end up being the victim of domestic violence or domestic abuse in adulthood? Yes. Abuse was normalized in the childhood home, so victims of child abuse tend to stay in relationships that are abusive in adulthood longer than most people do. 

Do a lot of adult children of child abuse end up in the arts? Yes. What the Google AI article reveals (partial):
Yes, research and anecdotal evidence suggest a significant link between childhood adversity—including abuse, neglect, and family dysfunction—and a higher likelihood of individuals pursuing careers in the arts. Studies indicate that traumatic childhoods can drive individuals to channel their pain into intense creativity, using art as a vehicle for emotional expression, recovery, and control.

What is Battered Wife Syndrome? (however this can manifest in men too). 

Anyway, I feel bad about what happened to him. It doesn't surprise me that he turned to the guitar and to performing considering all of what he endured. There are things in life that relieve trauma better than others, and the rhythms, modes of practice and time alone have something in common with trauma therapies. Even the most common therapy, EMDR, has a very rhythmic element to it. I think this is why, in part, people who have gone through abuse turn to arts professions. Some of it also has to do with acceptance based on competence, and even "perfectionism". And some of it has to do with social elements like being part of a tribe of other people in the arts. 

I find a lot of former victims are "nature bugs" too: hikers, photographers of nature, animal caretakers, people who enjoy being outdoors more than indoors, world or country travelers, traveling salesmen, farmers who enjoy farming the old way with horses, people who work in wildlife professions, etc. Again, there are elements of this that may have some resemblence to trauma therapy too. 

At some point I will share some of my findings about this phenomenon. I'm probably not going to be able to bring up individual names, but there is no harm in bringing up the subject in ways that may be really helpful to others. 

Thank you, J.P. for being so open. May it help others. 

Peep's Article on Adult Children and the "No Contact" Trend With Parents in the USA. Is Narcissism Really Behind It?

To reference what I'm talking about in this post, I am responding to Peep's article on the "No Contact" issue sweeping the nation that she discusses through this link. She has also written and illustrated a book about why she went "no contact" with her own parent and most of her family and you can buy her book through this link to find out why (the book includes cartoons which helps to lighten a dark subject a bit, kind of the way comedians do it). 

However, this does not mean that she feels that all adult children should go "no contact". Far from it ...

Anyway, her article talks about the subject of "no contact". Apparently parents who have had children go "no contact" on them are in an uproar. "No contact" (estrangement from the parent) is having its "backlash moment" where many parents on social media are banding together to complain about how they are being treated and either shaming the act of "no contact" or shaming their children or retaliating against their children because of it. 

However, Some of them blame therapists instead.

Many of these parents feel they have been really good parents and that therapists are mistaken in suggesting or supporting "no contact" as an answer to their child's distress. 

And some of them are taunting their children too: "Just you wait and see! I'm going to have a perfectly peaceful happy life without you! In fact, I'm going to forget you ever existed! My life is mine going forward and you are never going disrupt it with your complaining and issues ever again!" 

I have no problem with parents "finding a way to be happy without their children", but the taunt will never build a bridge should you ever want them back, or to teach them about good "bridge building" or "what reconciliation looks like". Maybe you don't want them back ever again, and that's your choice, but make sure it is a choice that you can live with for the rest of your life as taunting is very unlikely to change the trajectory of "no contact" that your child has initiated. 

I also acknowledge the pain that many of you are going through. I have friends who are going through this too (being ghosted by a child) and some of the reasons for it do seem flimsy compared to children who really do have narcissistic or psychopathic parents and have never been treated in a fair, on-going kind, non-painful or equal way. In other words, narcissistic and psychopathic parents enjoy hurting at least one child and using their power to get what they want out of their children (they are also very controlling kinds of parents with little to no empathy ... although narcissists tend to regret hurting their children over time; psychopathic parents never have any regrets hurting anyone, including their own child). And that's how you tell the difference between the children who "go no contact" over real trauma and damage to their health than children who "go no contact" for other reasons. 

Parental taunting of your own children or any child is a narcissistic trait, and its another reason why you may not want to use it (it may be used as proof for your child), even if you feel angry and want to lash out. So is retaliatory behavior. It can peg you as a narcissist and give a child proof. Retaliatory behavior against a child is also illegal if they are still a child under the age of 18, and considered to be under the umbrella of instigating more conflict and can escalate to "coercive control" (another link) which is increasingly becoming illegal in the United States and is already illegal in most European countries. 

Taunting and retaliation are not likely to give you peace of mind or to make the pain of separation go away anyway. Neither is the attitude that you are an exceptional parent. Shaming will not work either and often reinforces their desire to stay away. All of these tactics are ineffectual to reconciliation. 

These are my major gripes with this movement to make children feel accountable and guilty for going "no contact". It just puts both child and parent on their own insular islands, afraid of reconciliation, and of one another, rather than opening up a dialogue to mend fences.

I'm not diminishing the pain this is causing a lot of you, especially if you really are not narcissistic and care about the welfare of your child and never thought they'd follow a trend just to manipulate you into a kind of relationship they want to have, whether that is to control discussions, to silence your perspectives and feelings, or to endlessly hammer you with their grievances. 

However, I have an open mind and tend to look at situations from both sides - the negatives and positives, the good and bad, the children who are going "no contact" and the parents who are hurt by the trend. 

So here is what I think ... 

Is there a demand behind "no contact"? 

In my opinion, for a lot of Gen Z and Millennials there is. I'll get to it later in the post. 

Is it reasonable that 16 - 25 percent of all of America's population is "no contact" with at least one family member  and that 30 percent of Gen Zers are estranged from at least one parent? 

Probably not. However, it is the reality of the present situation. I think it is important to deal with realities instead of depressive thinking or hopeful thinking.

But what's the best way to deal with it?

When I look at Peep's blog post on this, and the responses of parents going through this, it becomes obvious that it's not going to get better by parents retaliatating against their child (because it is a generational shift after all) and going "no contact" themselves with their children, or indulging in all of the tit-for-tat I'm seeing, is copying what these adult children are doing. It would be hypocritical, right?

It's not going to get better through narcissistic tactics either (even if it is just one of the tactics) - the reality of the situation is that scientifically narcissistic tactics have been shown not to work at ending "no contact". They have very tentative troubling short term success at best, with the final outcome being "a type of destruction" of the child and a "destruction of the relationship with the child". 

And to use narcissistic styles in relationships or tit-for-tat reasons, is teaching both other parents and future children that "no contact" is normal - as normalized as divorce, as normalized as finding a new job, as normalized as hiring and firing workers, and that anyone has a right and privilege to divorce any person at any time, no matter the destruction it causes. 

It's also a fact that estrangement in families is increasing, not decreasing.

I feel it is important to deal with these facts. The facts aren't going to go away by themselves or from the drumming of constant complaints from children or from estranged parents. 

Who wants children if they are just going to divorce you, right? And who wants parents if they invalidate, don't listen, are so far from understanding a child's personality, thoughts, experiences, feelings and childhood and adult needs, that parents are treating children like their workers who they can fire at any time? What child would want a life like that, right?

Expect a low birth rate, right? Expect every old person for an entire century to be part of a boomer generation that young Americans are paying taxes to keep alive, right? 

Does this have a good ending? Can it have a good ending?  

So what can you do? 

I really think that understanding all of the issues surrounding this trend is paramount. Without understanding the issues, it's like playing baseball in the dark of the night. You are going to miss the ball and never get off the home plate, so the trend is likely to continue and to deepen, not to resolve. 

According to the younger generations, many have gone no contact over perceived toxic family dynamics and narcissistic traits in their parents (I suggest reading through the Google AI version and then going to the articles on this). I also cover the major points of both articles towards the end of this post.

Okay, so what is the demand behind the "no contact"? 

Not using narcissistic tactics is definitely one of them. If you are inclined to use narcissistic tactics to solve a "no contact" situation, it will just cement the opinion that you are a narcissist. So that obviously can't work in ending "no contact".

If you are using any of the narcissistic tactics and a therapist catches it in a session, the therapist is likely to tell your child that narcissists don't change, so the "no contact" may continue over a lifetime over "that fact".

As far as going "no contact" over toxic family issues, it's complicated, and often "the choice of last resort". But there are reasons why Gen Z is going this way: many of them "just can't take added stress any more", at least where they are at this particular time, with many trying to find good paying jobs, some of them trying to pay off student loans with higher interest rates than their parents had to endure, trying to find adequate living quarters, trying to find a mate, trying to avoid the uptick of viruses since the pandemic hit, and all of the challenges that young adults are facing in today's world. 

With 30 percent of the Gen Z and Millennials going "no contact", you aren't going to be able to shame, blame, continually criticize them, go tit-for-tat, or hurt your child out of "no contact" because these are also well known narcissistic tactics and traits. If you are not a narcissist you can stop at least most of these tactics that the "real narcissists" use. And if you're not a narcissist, it will be easy to transition out of these types of responses and behaviors.

As for the real narcissists, it won't be easy at all, or desirable to them, to transition out of these  behaviors (it's a serious highly resistant-to-change personality disorder, a disability because they don't feel empathy or understand the perspectives of others, and a brain matter), and they will play the victim for years, decades and a lifetime about "how badly they were mistreated" without ever considering their own contributions to how the estrangement with their child happened. They will not understand others much, if at all. Some of them can recognize the feelings of others cognitively, but even that tends to be limited.  

Anyway, understanding narcissistic tactics will hopefully keep you from using the tactics and hopefully help in solving some of the gap that is between you and your child. 

You can read this blog as to what the narcissistic traits and tactics are, or go to other writers on the topic. 

For the rest of the blog I have two sections, one for parents and one for children who are thinking of going "no contact" with a parent. 

FOR PARENTS

One key ingredient is not to make a child always accountable and responsible for reconciliation: If children have always tried to reconcile and cave under pressure to "get along with the parent" it is likely to stop at some point - it's a bad habit that often leads to trauma and a trauma bond. 

A trauma bond is exceptionally unhealthy for anyone, especially children. And it does lead to "no contact" after awhile, especially when a child reaches adulthood. 

Narcissists always try to make their child accountable for a rift or disagreement between them and their child. You may not want to do what narcissists do in this regard. Also, narcissists are known for trauma bonds with their children - you may not want to go down this road either to avoid estrangement. 

If you want to tell a child that you are enjoying life without him or her, that sends a myriad of messages you may not want to send if what you actually want is reconciliation. One of the messages that you send when you say that you are enjoying life without them is that "parent and child estrangements are acceptable, joyful and normal, and I'm enjoying the estrangement." - probably not a good idea if you want a healthy bond. 
     If life is truly better without him or her in your world, make sure you want to send this message - it will be taken as rejection by almost all children, even adult children and will cause trauma.
     If it causes a trauma bond, most therapists encourage patients to break trauma bonds so that they can live without trauma - this is also good to realize.  
     Children who are rejected in this way can struggle with panic ("Should I go back to my parent?") for a little while, maybe, but for the most part, they will not want to go back. If you understand what rejection feels like, you would not want to go back either. 
 
Remember, you were their "first teacher" and they still listen, and more importantly see what you mean by your actions. 

In order to keep a child in your life, avoid these other kinds of actions that narcissistic parents are know for too:

* Don't play games with rejection. Don't do fake discards. Here is another link to a discussion on fake discards. If you're going to reject them, mean it, i.e. don't turn it into a manipulation or punishment over unfavorable behavior from them - only do it because you really don't ever want to see them or be in a relationship with them again for the rest of your life.
     For an underage child, bring them to your local hospital and tell the social workers there that you no longer want your child and that you are dropping him or her off to be parented by someone else.
     If your child is an adult, tell them that you no longer want to talk to them or be in their presence again, and mean it. 
     If you do fake discards it will most likely turn into an estrangement anyway because discards, even fake ones, are traumatizing and deeply unsettling to any child, even an adult child. They will no longer trust you as a teacher or that you will put their well being and safety as a priority.
     Don't reject them and then turn around to give them positive reinforcement once they are doing what you want. This does not work with adult children. This includes silencing your adult child, giving them the silent treatment, telling them that they are "useless", periods of real rejections followed by honeymoons, micro-rejections and neglect. The cycle of abuse that narcissists use is about rejections with honeymoon periods (positive reinforcements after rejection) and a dangerous game of manipulation that narcissists are known for. Rejections to play head games to hurt a child (punish them without regret or remorse) is more of an Antisocial Personality Disorder trait (note narcissists can have both Narcssistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder resulting in malignant narcissism). 
     If you don't use discards or rejection and you feel confident that you will never use them when angry, you are way ahead of narcissists and psychopaths who use this tactic religiously and destructively.
     Children are not going to look to parents who use discards, fake discards, rejections, silent treatments to get parental approval. While it may work for awhile, especially when they are very young, it won't last and even underage children are more likely to "be more and more independent minded", and not want to be influenced by you, which can mean eventual "no contact". 
     Also make sure you are not using rejection as a retaliatory measure against your child when they go  "no contact" as it just reinforces that "no contact" is good for interpersonal problems. If you are angry or heartbroken over "no contact", or don't believe "no contact" is good for relationships, don't retaliate with a "no contact" response. 

* Don't "toot your own horn" or act arrogant if you want reconciliation. Arrogance is also a narcissistic trait and what it shows is "I am right and you are wrong, and as long as I think I'm the best parent in the world, nothing will change between us. It's all your fault and it's your burden to make up with me." - it doesn't work. 

* Constant shaming and criticizing doesn't work in terms of reconciliation and is also a narcissistic trait. It also can teach a child that constant shaming and criticizing is normal and okay to practice - even when it comes to shaming and criticizing you. It is also one of the four horseman of the apocolypse (relationships that don't last). If you want tolerance for yourself, practice tolerance towards others. 

* Don't put your children in contests with each other for your love and approval. It doesn't work, and it is also a narcissistic trait. Again, what does that teach them? To put you on notice when they are an adult that you have to work hard for their approval and care too? 
     It tends to teach lessons about empathy too. "I don't have to have empathy for you when I disapprove of you!" - that sends a bad message. 
     If one child is always getting the approval and another child isn't - that is a sign of scapegoating which is also a narcissistic trait. After awhile the child who does not get approval gets used to it, stops trying, doesn't seek it and gets the message that they are "odd man out" and that they have to seek a life of independence, which can mean "independent from you". This happens on a "brain level" in a young child, by the way, especially if the child experiences scapegoating at an early age, which most scapegoats do - usually by age 4 and lasting a lifetime. This "brain change" cannot be changed back into caring what your opinions of them are.
     Some of this will be discussed more in another post about why scapegoats will never be, and can never be sycophants or approval seekers - at least without faking it (some scapegoats fake it so that they aren't rejected, since most of them know that their parent wants admiration so badly, even if they do not really care if their parent admires them or not). 
     If you can tolerate a child who is not an approval-seeker, then you can probably reconcile, but if you can't, the "no contact" is much more likely to never end. 
     Narcissists are approval seekers (they seek approval from external sources - called narcissistic supply - an opposite of what scapegoats usually seek), and they can never give up narcissistic supply seeking, and are therefore not good candidates for reconciliation from children they have hurt, or scapegoated.
     If you aren't a narcissist and can give up on "looking superior" (which also won't work with non-approval seekers) and you can share the power equally with your child, then you are closer to reconciliation than any narcissist will ever be.
     Some of the other traits that defines reasons for narcissistic supply includes arrogance, needing validation they are superior to others, needing constant admiration, needing on-going good and bad attention, and needing constant flattery even when exploiting or threatening others.
     It should all be left behind in favor of what is really happening moment to moment and hearing clearly what is really going on. If you can watch a heartbreaking movie and cry because you are identifying with the character, you can listen to your own child in the same way. 
     In fact, giving up narcissistic supply needs is preferable, and if you are not a narcissist, it should come easy. If you are a narcissist, you won't even want to read this suggestion. To real narcissists, others should want accolades, approval, attention at all times, constant validations and admiration just like they crave. It seems unfathomable to any narcissist that narcissistic supply isn't necessary to function. 
     But if narcissistic supply needs are such a necessity, why are so many narcissists estranged from children, divorced from spouse(s), estranged or disliked by siblings, fired so often from jobs? And most of them are. I can't see that narcissistic supply is a route to a happy life. And neither do most children who see all of this.
     The narcissistic supply they give and get is very, very temporary, and can be downright annoying (as annoying as narcissists in the public eye - as well as exhausting and irritating in terms of their latest schemes to supply themselves with more of it).
     Leaving behind a need for any kind or source of narcissistic supply for the rest of us I would think would be very free-ing as well as "dealing with the reality of situations instead of being hopeful or rejecting of situations." Perhaps feelings of "never-enoughness" go away too. 
     You're also able to approach difficult emotional situations with humility, and the desire for deep understanding and knowledge (as again, it's about dealing with realities, not beliefs, not hopes, not dreams, not disappointments, not boredom). You are enjoying a type of intimacy rather than "future illusions" of what can and can't be. And most of all, you aren't putting a child in a role or expecting something from them - you are letting reality be what it is. 
     It puts you in a much better position for reconciliation among equals - which is really what Millennials and Gen Z tend to demand from their relationships in general, from both parents and peers. 
     You would be way ahead of narcissistic parents if narcissistic supply is not on your mind and agenda when thinking about reconciliation with a child. 

Other things to avoid that look and sound narcissistic:

* Don't gaslight your kids, call them crazy, or spread smear campaigns about them in order to get support from others. This is true especially in trying to force a child to give up "no contact". It won't won't work and it is likely to widen the rift. 

* Don't call your kids stupid or inept, or insinuate it. Again, it's a sign of contempt and contempt is a sure predictor of a relationship that will fail. 

* Don't assume you know what your child is feeling, thinking and experiencing. If you stick to opinions on this, it can mean you will be wrong about half the time at least. It's not good to be wrong that much. It will mean your child won't have respect for your opinions. Going "no contact" over parental perpecticide is often one of the top reasons for "no contact" among adult children in today's "estrangement revolution" in the USA.
     Perspecticide is an excuse for not listening, not understanding, not engaing, and it is destructive. Children can use it on you too when they get to the point that it is no longer worth it to explain themselves "to deaf ears".
     When perspecticide is used a lot by a parent, it doesn't seem like a "real relationship" to a child. It becomes an anxiety ridden painful endurance test instead. 
     Another reason not to use it: narcissists use it in spades. They are exceptionally tethered to unchanging beliefs, a severe form of confirmation bias, instead of exploring the realities of what their child is experiencing. 
     That just doesn't work for any child - there is, in essence, a turning away by both parent and child over constant misunderstandings. In order to avoid "no contact", confirmation bias should not be used or taught to children either verbally or through one's own actions.
     Openness to perspectives should be the guiding light.

* Don't play financial games and favoritism games with children. This is also a narcissistic trait you may want to avoid.
     You are not their boss and they are not your subordinate worker.
     If your children go insubordinate on you, what message does this send? "You're fired?" - the sign of rejection? 
     What happens to bosses who are cruel, or humiliate, and fire their workers? Either the worker makes promises and buckles down for awhile, or they look for another job while working for you or they quit on their own terms, or they get another job right away. 
     Is this what you really want a relationship with your child to be like? 
     And what message does it send? That it's okay to treat family members as workers? And what if other family members, or neighbors, or other authoritarians want your child to work for them too? It opens the door to exploitation, which opens yet another door to trauma. 
     It's better to leave work in the workplace where there are rules and regulations with legal protections. 

* Even if you are deeply hurt by the estrangement, I would avoid the very common narcissistic phrase, "ungrateful". I can see how parents who have put a lot of energy, time, money, thought, and consideration into parenting, only to see their child run off and avoid them at all cost. Where is the reciprocality, the acknowledgement that you did good things for them? 
     But I would avoid it because it's a word most narcissistic parents use about at least one of their children. That link categorizes that narcissistic phrase as a guilt-inducing manipulation to get a child compliant. And what's more, most children know why it's being used, and most therapists know that it is used to sidestep the real issues.
     It's also an aggressive form of perspecticide where the parent doesn't have to listen or deal with the real issues, or the difficult ones, that probably led to "no contact".
     Adult children who are dealing with this side-stepping of real issues and are traumatized by it also will not listen to how ungrateful they are. It achieves absolutely nothing of value. At best it achieves nothing except deaf ears from the adult child and from the parent - neither want to hear what the other has to say. 
     Most likely the issues don't have to do with ingratitude anyway. Your child may be perfectly grateful, and in ways you prefer, but he or she may be bullied by a sibling and you never did anything to stop the tajectory of violence, and when they've endured enough, you tell them to apologize to the violent sibling.
     Or your child may feel unnaturally controlled and invalidated by you and feel you are not able to address it (real narcissists aren't able to address it - but if you aren't a narcissist it may be to your benefit to tell your child that you will address it when they are ready to break "no contact").
     Or he or she may have gotten a terrible illness and felt no empathy or concern from you about it. 
     Real narcissistic parents will never get beyond thinking "ingratitude" about their child because narcissists are chronic guilt-inducers who get stuck in it. It's like they sink in it too. They must believe that nothing is their fault and that all problems and issues are someone else's fault, especially a child who has gone "no contact". 
     If you can get beyond getting stuck in an "ingratitude" thinking style and want to meet halfway to solve the relationship issues between you, again, you are way ahead of real narcissists who most often  get stuck for life on this one merry-go-round style of thought and never think beyond it. 

* Do you have a lack of empathy? Do you feel you have to pretend to feel empathetic? The reason I ask is because it is a narcissistic trait. 
     I'm not sure what can be done about it, but it may cause estrangement with people in your life and probably has already - a lot. 
     I'm not sure what the answer is here except to try to understand what people are going through cognitively and imagining yourself in the situations they are going through.
     In fact, imagine yourself going through those same situations over and over again. Do it a lot and often, especially if your child is estranged and you don't want the estrangement to continue. Even partial understanding is a kind of bridge, or a prevention from a widening rift. 
     If you can't do it, or don't want to do it, there is your answer as to how much you'll understand and what kind of knowledge you are going to receive, if any. 
     Children aren't toys, and if you have estranged children, you know they don't want to be toys. 

     
Other reasons for why children go "no contact":

* Disrespect for boundaries. No always means no. You may be accused of being a narcissist because of crashing through boundaries even if that's the only trait of narcissism you have. 
     Why do children set boundaries with their parents? 
     What is stated through that link is that children set boundaries with their parents to "establish autonomy, protect their mental health, and foster mutual respect. These limits, common in adulthood, often arise from a need to manage toxic behaviors, such as overprotecting or controlling, and to navigate differing values or past hurt."
     If they are retreating because they feel the need for more autonomy, or to protect their mental health, because they are hurt from past traumas or abuse (isolating), or they simply want to manage their own lives, or because they have different values and opinions than you do, or because there are shifting priorities and that most their attention needs to go to their spouse and children, crashing through these boundaries is not going to make them loosen boundaries; it is going to make them toughen up the boundaries. It is a sign of disrespect to push against boundaries.
     Respect is a two-way street. The more you sow respect for a child, the more respect they will show you - usually. 
     Since narcissists make it their agenda to crash through as many boundaries as possible even to the point of stealing from their children for malignant narcissists, it's just not a good idea to disrespect boundaries. Reconciling over broken boundaries becomes impossible when too many boundaries are broken. 

* Lifestyle reasons. They feel you will reject them over a lifestyle, and they really identify with people in that lifestyle. 

* Moving: if they move far away, you aren't going to be the center of their world. Again, this is a fact, rather than something to try to change. Pressure to live closer can create more distance. 

* Broken promises.

* Political reasons. A lot of people in America are experiencing estrangements over politics. That link points to 1 in 5 Americans reporting being estranged from a family member due to politics. Political perspectives at the moment are becoming very divisive. Politicians are also promoting, going along with, or enabling the divisiveness. Realize that constantly contrasting themselves to other politicians is a "get the vote tactic" and does not need to be in your livingroom, diningroom, or any room. 
     But it is being recreated in livingrooms now. Many liberals and people of color feel punished and distrustful, and most conservatives feel elated and empowered (that may be waning a bit at the present time).
     Does a personal relationship need to be like what politicians do to each other?
     While I think, generally, that silencing family members is not a good idea, perhaps tolerance is. No one has your personality and brain and because of that there are always going to be differences between people when it comes to politics. Some families have reached the consesus that politics should not be discussed in the home so that relationships between them aren't infected by it. 
     Politics may be the main reason there are family rifts. 1 in 5 is 20% as a reason for being estranged from a family member. It is close to the 30% of Gen Z going "no contact" with a parent. So who knows. It isn't clear whether politics figures into one of the reason for going "no contact", but it may actually be a bigger reason than other reasons, including narcissists in the family, or maybe some families with deep devotion or deep disgust are narcissistic enough that they cannot tolerate a child of a different political persuasion in their midst. 

Sometimes chidren can be the ones who are narcissistic.
It's common for narcissistic children to name their parents as narcissists since projection is part of the narcissist's game. 
     Narcissists will also discard their parents when they are no longer useful to them. 
     Narcissistic children will also put parents through honeymoon and rejection cycles just like any narcissist will do. 
     Here are the more common ways that children adopt narcissistic traits:

* Growing up with shaming is at the head of "how" they become narcissists. It doesn't mean that this particular child is shamed. It can, and most often means, they are listening to shaming statements of other people, or siblings, or from one of their parents, or other children. If there is a scapegoat child in the midst of the family, there is likely to be a profusion of shaming going on. If parents have prejudices and put other people down, it adds to it. 
     Hearing adults shame others is likely to picked up by a child. If they see that an adult gets what he wants out of shaming, or raging, they will think that's a good way to get what they want too. And then the empathy for others goes away, and eventually that adult child puts their focus on what they can get out of shaming. 
     If they see an adult shaming someone by discarding someone else, and then the other person comes back pleading, they may think that "no contact" will have those same results: that people will come back pleading and they will get everything they want. After awhile discarding becomes a bad habit, and they use it on their parent too. 
     It is one reason why discards and shaming should not be used in family relationships - these are the number one ways that children become unempathetic narcissists who discard others when they aren't getting what they want. They will discard their parents, siblings and children if they feel they are not getting enough narcissistic supply. With parents it can mean "not getting enough money", "not getting enough flattery","not getting enough privileges", "not coming first" (narcissists believe they are superior to others), "not getting something they expected".
     Children most often become narcissistic from contact with narcissistic adults. It can sometimes be a much older brother or sister, or a close friend with narcissistic qualities, but usually it's parents, and secondarily, grandparents, uncles, aunts, or a much older sibling
     Narcissistic adults who are shaming others in the ear shot of children, can't deal with shame themselves without becoming highly dysregulated emotionally, even lashing out at their children, but dish it out in copious ways. If they are dishing out constant shaming to a child, children aren't capaple of dealing with it, and either become deaf and independent to it, or freeze and dissociate when they hear it, or learn to fawn and shapeshift into different "admirable", "acceped" or scheming personality styles to deal with it all - and it is the fawners and shapesifters who are the most likely to become future narcissists.
     There is a lot more to this subject, but those are "the basics".   
     This can create entitlement and feelings of being special, spared, loved exclusively, getting loyalty and the bulk of family resources, and arrogance. Empathy in this case, is not being encouraged in this child, or by this child. When someone else, especially another child, is being shamed aggessively and constantly, and the narcissist-to-be is not receiving the same treatment, it often means a child who is being molded into a budding narcissist with the false sense that they are better and superior in comparison to shamed children. 
     Comparing themselves to others is very much a part of a narcissist's inner world, and it becomes part of the budding narcissist's world too.
     Even if the narcissism is detected before the child becomes an adult, it is often too late to turn these traits around. Children learn empathy early on, and if they are never encouraged to have empathy, and to compete instead, they probably never will have empathy. If they don't have empathy as a young child, or it disappears during childhood, it's pretty much a given that they will never have it.
     This narcissism eventually can be turned on the parents as "no contact" or a discard that is hard to understand. Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a psychologist and expert on narcissism, has made the statement that shaming has no place in a child's life or in child rearing. 
     Instead of shaming, understand what children are feeling and why, soothe and de-escalate, teach siblings co-operation and empathy as they play together - it is a much better way to avoid having a narcissistic child. 
     Some other things that create a budding narcissist:
* Seeing or hearing adults bully children.
* Seeing or hearing adults talk haughtily about the exploitation of others. 
* Seeing or hearing adults be elated and celebratory when they hurt other people
* Seeing or hearing another child receiving gaslighting from an adult (the budding narcissistic child learns to manipulate others when they observe gaslighting) 
* Seeing or hearing elation about an adult giving someone the silent treatment and how they got their way when the silence was broken
* Seeing or hearing adults reject/discard their own children
* Seeing or hearing adults who are unethical and reveling in getting away with being unethical
* Seeing or hearing how adults feel after they have gotten a divorce and the destructive arguments around issues of divorce
* Seeing or hearing adults deal with cheating in a marriage (shows children how to get away with things, shows how much empathy is required of people who hurt other people, shows a child what is reasonable for a break-up with another person, shows what fighting fairly and unfairly looks like and what the repurcussions are, and what to adopt)
* Seeing or hearing adults not being empathetic of people who they have hurt
* Latch key kids or neglected children often do not have the ability to self regulate or know what proper behavior is (they are left alone to figure all of this out for themselves, and are even expected to guess their way through it). Children are naturally narcissistic, and they may very well be narcissistic as they deal with their siblings alone in a house. And since they get used to being so alone without adults around, they can live without parents when they become adults too. 
     Children tend to be taught by actions rather than by lectures. However, there can't be hypocrisy in lectures to be effective learning experiences for the child. 
     When narcisistic adult children go "no contact" with a parent, it will often feel like a manipulation rather than a "I can't deal with the pain from being in this relationship."
     The narcissistic child after discarding a parent will often turn to a "high lifestyle of partying", or extreme sports, and often focus on money, building wealth, competing, drinking, drugging, travel, sex, power, control and getting narcissistic supply, and feel superior, on top of the world, bullet proof, and arrogant, whereas the latter "suffering kind of child" who goes "no contact" with a parent because they are in pain, will be dealing with unsolved emotional issues, getting a lot of counseling, will go through a period of cognitive dissonance (and perhaps some pleading before giving up on you), and will be traumatized, depressed, isolating themselves from you or the entire family, and become more withdrawn, introverted and choosy about who they get close to. They become more closed to communication, insulated, and they batten down the hatches, finding refuge in their own home.
     Narcissistic children can be a parent's worst nightmare. A child whose focus is on money, power, exploiting others, partying, a high lifestyle, and narcissistic supply, is not really into taking care of older people or solving relationship problems. "Everything that my parent is going through is their fault" will be the attitude.
     Knowing that you have a narcissistic child without empathy can be a shock to your system and traumatizing. Narcissistic children do their discards and love bombing repeatedly, and get distracted by "better narcissistic supply" often.
     In this case, counseling may be the best option in terms of help in finding the best ways to heal from it, and deal with it. 

FOR CHILDREN:
IS YOUR FAMILY REALLY TOXIC
AND ARE YOUR PARENTS REALLY NARCISSISTS?

Discussion about narcissistic parents:

First of all, do your parents really fit the official diagnoses in the DSM 5?

Or is it just a few traits? If it is just a few traits, some progress can probably be made in terms of understanding, comprehension and reconciliation. 

However, going through this list is often not enough. 

Here is what a lot of children of narcissists go through:
* Trauma symptoms
* Hightened anxiety, jumpiness, heightened hypervigilance, fear of seeing or having to deal with their parent
* Disturbed sleep, profound lack of sleep, jumpy and awake at the slightest sound
* Nightmares about their narcissistic parent hurting them or who seem elated at seeing them hurt
* Nightmares about their narcissistic parent stalking them
* Nightmares about adverse situations they want to forget
* Intrusive vivid memories about a traumatic event or events at inconvenient times
* Easily triggered by sights and sounds of traumatic events that featured their parent in the past
* Easily triggered by being around other family members that remind them of their narcissistic parent
* Easily triggered by hearing or seeing arguments, shouting, swearing, name-calling, loud voices, rage, belligerence, goading, taunting, threats, blackmail, gaslighting, arguments that are intensifying
* Easily triggered by love bombing (people coming on too strong, flatterers) 
* Easily triggered and depressed being around people who threaten abandonment of others (often resulting in the freeze trauma response)
* Easily triggered by people telling others to shut up or to stop talking
* Easily triggered by commanding, demanding, bossy people
* Easily trigered by individuals who show profound confirmation bias
* Easily triggered by people who pretend to be a victim
* Easily triggered by violence, violent movies, wars, war footage, thrillers
* Easily triggered by controlling, antagonistic, raging, arrogant people
* Sometimes triggered by competitions and games
* Sometimes triggered by triangulation
* Sometimes triggered by fireworks, loud banging noises, loud pops, fizzles
* Sometimes triggered by dangerous sports
* A profound sense that they need to heal the hurt and constant intrusive memories that they can't seem to stop on their own, and that seems to follow them around. Most victims of narcissists go to a counselor, psychologist or psychiatrist (and yes, many of them will suggest going "no contact" to keep your child from further slides into more trauma)
* A desperate need for peace in private life and in the world at large (peace being "the great healer")
* Severe cases: A profound feeling that they should be alone, that they can no longer deal with human beings
* Sometimes: body aches - all of the muscles of the body can freeze up, be effected, but otherwise it feels like the kind of body aches you get when you get the flu except they are there all of the time
* Often: Stomach aches, stomach upset, IBS, celiacs, and in extreme cases: nausea, vomiting with an inability to calm nerves enough to stop it
* Severe cases: Involuntary body movements (jerking, shivering, mimicing restless leg syndrome)
* Severe cases: Involuntary body freeze responses where you can't move, the body stiffens like a corpse, and can barely breathe (can get worse with someone shouting or making commands - there has been a lot of research into this trauma response lately - I'll be talking about this when I get to the trauma section of this blog)
* Severe cases: Suicide ideation, hopelessness
* Severe cases: Inability to ask for help or trust people in the helping professions
* Often: Heart problems: palpitations, pressure and tightness in the chest, heart rhythm problems. Heart disease is very common among victims of narcissistic abuse. Heart problems also include light-headedness, faintness, dizziness and respiratory distress. 
* Often: Headaches. In severe cases: Headaches that never go away, that go on day after day, week after week, month after month. Stress headaches and tension headaches are the most common and often come with tenderness in the scalp, neck and shoulders with fatigue. Can come with ocular symptoms such as sensitivity to light, eye strain, and eye pain. It can also mean the symptoms worsen when triggered. Doctors treating headache sometimes also suggest "no contact" to minimize the issues setting off the headaches, especially if a mental health counselor has also suggested it. 
* Extremely common: Autoimmune diseases. The most common are IBS, IBD, Crohn's, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Lupus, Asthma, Celiacs, and Thyroiditis.  
* Common: Increased risk for cancer. Most prevalent are gastrointenstinal cancers, female cancers, and skin cancers. More here and here. 
* Often when anxious or afraid: pacing, walking fast, repetetive motions
* Sometimes (moderate to severe cases): problems talking: stuttering, repetetive words, slurred speech, hoarseness, weak voice from shallow breathing, getting emotional or teary while talking because of the frustaration of getting their point across, difficulty finding the right words, losing train of thought, inability to speak (freeze response) about certain subjects. Trauma specialists can also suggest "no contact" when speech impediments show up in their patients.
* A desperate feeling that they need to heal from physical symptoms associated with trauma and PTSD 
 
Note: this is not a full list.

This list also doesn't necessarily mean your parent is a narcissist, so I have another answer for that. 

There are alot of other narcissistic traits that are not in the DSM, so I took the time to list the more important traits (with links) to be aware of, especially in close personal relationships, to help you decipher whether your parent really is a narcissist. 

Some other traits of narcissists are: 

* Tendendecy to become prejudiced. 
* They enjoy creating drama and chaos
* They often rage if they detect any criticism or difference of opinion from theirs - in other words they tend to think they are right all of the time and will not tolerate being shown they are wrong.
* They enjoy arguments that have no resolution. They turn arguments into personal attacks instead.
* They tend to have destructive arguing styles. 
* They tend to blame shift.
* They have a tendency to be cruel. 
* Narcissists will insist that they chronically have to have their own way
* As far as they are concerned, there is no place for compromise, co-operation or understanding; they have to have their own way. 
* They often play the victim if they aren't getting their way. 
* You may tend to feel invisible around them because narcissists are often too self centered, self focused, and self involved to notice that you are a different person with different traits.
* They tend to have extra-marital affairs and to be disloyal in general.
* Narcissists tend to be highly manipulative and controlling.
* They tend to feel more superior in comparison to other people.
* They cannot fathom that they are not superior to other human beings (delusions of grandeur)
* Narcissists feel that arguing gets them their way by wearing down the other person (zero-sum game, chronically dominant oriented)
* Narcissists feel that being dominant at all times is the only way they feel emotionally regulated
* Narcissists feel they must be dominant in order to enjoy a relationship.
* They tend to feel threatened by the success of others. 
* They tend to feel more jealousy and envy than other people do. 
* They tend to be intolerant of others except sycophants.
* Narcissists tend to be exploitive. 
* Narcissists tend to silence others or talk over them to control the narrative. 
* Narcissists tend to lie (a lot) to serve their reputation. They have no commitment to the truth. 
* Narcissists have no moral or ethical convictions, but tend to appear to have them to serve their reputation. They also display moral hypocrisy, i.e., holding others to saint-like ethical standards that they never practice themselves. 
* Narcissists tend to express more ingratitude about their relationships than satisfaction.
* When narcissists don't get their way, they tend to run smear campaigns on you.
* Narcissists tend to use the silent treatment on people closest to them to get their own way.
* They gaslight.
* Narcissists practice love bomb, devalue, discard - the cycle of abuse in close relationships and with at least one child.
* Narcissists can become highly retaliatory and vengeful. 
* Narcissists can turn to crime if they don't get their way.

These are "the basics" of how most narcissists relate to other human beings they are close to.

If your parent can compromise, and discuss issues without insisting they get their way, and they can argue points fairly and equitably, and still have empathy and consideration for your feelings, you may not want to close the door on them (they are likely to go through trauma by your "no contact"). 

Assuming your parent is not a narcissist, once trauma symptoms take hold, the nervous system goes into survival mode. The body and brain go into shock, the sympathetic nervous system releases cortisol and adrenaline, and the person finds themselves eventually "on guard" and hypervigilant to attacks. The initial phases may mean a freeze trauma response, a fight trauma response, a flee trauma response or less likely with a child a fawn trauma response.

The "fight trauma response" can have some controlling aspects to it, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are a narcissist unless they are in that mode most of the time. ... In other words, if their major traits are these: aggression, highly critical of you or others, argumentative, antagonistic, micro-managing or exceptionally controlling, disrespectful, lying, unempathetic ... all with an inability to take criticism or complaint without raging and/or threatening, but fighting back with a plethora of criticisms themselves - the latter being an important marker for narcissism since narcissism is primarily an "I can do what I want, but I'm going to make you miserable if you think you can do what you want. I'm going to control you and dominate you and call all of the shots - or else." - they may not say it exactly this way, but they'll say it in other ways. It is a major part of their personality disorder. 

Assuming they aren't a narcissist, in the beginning they try to avoid people and places as they try to absorb the loss. 

Then the grieving starts. And the confusion. Then persistent longing, distress, grief that has no closure, often social stigmas (usually for both parent and child, depending on the social circles), and high levels of stress and depression. Sometimes these set of symptoms, if they don't let up, mean gettting PTSD. 

PTSD often comes with triggers (which are a short hand way of saying panic attacks and anxiety). This can mean that if they are ever in your company again, they will likely feel highly anxious and distrusting. They may be barely be able to speak. They may feel they can't speak, that they are walking on eggshells. They may cry and walk away from you. They may feel frozen and unresponsive. 

However, the opposite can happen too, where they want to talk issues out with you. They may suggest therapy for both of you. They may show that they are up for resolution, compromise, accomodation, short visits or a long term commitment to healing wounds each has inflicted on the other, openness to understanding your point of view - Note: narcissists can't do any of these things. 

In fact, if you tell a non-narcissistic parent that you need a break, they will understand and sometimes tell you that they'd like to resolve issues with you at what ever future date you'd like to schedule something.

If you never do it, even though the door is open, what do you want, if anything, that is causing this rift to be on-going? 

Because if it's control over your parent, it won't work, and in general, most therapists will say there is no room for parents to have a major agenda to control an adult child, or for an adult child to control a parent once both people are adults. 

Part of a parent understanding an adult child is letting go of control and expectation, and part of a child understanding who their parent is means letting go of control and expectation too. If you have children and you're too controlling, your child may be controlling too (they've learned it from you), so letting go of control has a better chance of mending a rift than increasing control. An agenda to control can also make you blind to who the other person is. 

In general, agendas get in the way of truly knowing and understanding a person. If other reasons over-take, a relationship will never be satisfying. 

If it's a toxic family matter where your uncle is a pedophile and you are not getting support and safety from your parent (or are blamed for the incidents instead), it's another matter which I bring up in the next section.  

It is hard to re-establish a relationship or reconcile after "no contact", especially if your parent went through trauma after your "no contact". The bond between parent and child is usually strong, so strong that breaches to it will usually cause trauma symptoms. 

In contrast, a true narcissisic parent can get over relationships by the usual mechanisms they use of "induce guilt first, and when realizing the relationship is over, deny wrong-doing, blame the other person 100 percent, and then run smear campaigns on them" (even if nothing they say is true). It's the default way all narcissists deal with relationships that split apart.

They also aren't invested in relationships. They are in relationships to control and dominate other people which makes it easy for them to reject people they can't control, or to get over them if the other person goes "no contact" on them. They are blind to who other people are mostly, and what their thoughts and feelings are because relationships are nothing more than power grabs and projections - it's what relationships have always been for them. 

Most likely in their smear campaigns you will get projections of how they behave (in other words, they tell you that you and others that you have their worst qualities because they do not know you). It's a defense mechanism that works very well for them and keeps them shielded from most feelings of heartbreak. 

And they will also think that your "no contact" is the way they do their "discards" of other people, to manipulate people and get more power over them. 

One big difference between narcissists and non-narcissists is that narcissists seem to get over relationships really fast, being haughty and calloused afterward, have attitudes like "blech, I never liked him or her anyway!" (even when it comes to their own child), and they party or indulge themselves with spending, cruises, parties, drinking and drugging, clothes, and covorting with your enemies or with people who have hurt you - all another sign of narcissism. 

In contrast, parents who are not narcissists will be going through a tremendous amount of grief and trauma. 

If you want to reconcile with a narcissist, they often think you want to have domination or power over them (that's because that is what they do when they try to get others back in their life). So they are likely to reject you. 

If they let you back, they may appreciate the narcissistic supply for awhile, but from knowing the stories of adult children of narcissists, the adult children were pretty severely punished soon afterward for going "no contact" in the first place. Their parent's retaliation became the major theme of their life shortly afterwards, which of course, usually means the adult child is dealing with more abuse which mostly turns into a life long rift or a lot more trauma. 

If they pursue or sweet talk you, it's often to get you back in role serving them (the roles are discussed in this post) or to punish you. 

Real child abuse survivors often find themselves wanting to get away from arrogant people, aggressive hostile people, conflict oriented people, argumentative types, controlling personalities, micro-managers, people who threaten other people to get their way, and antagonistic oriented people. They just want peace and safety, and that's their real reason for "no contact" - not to punish the parent.

And who is at the top for threatening, hostile, arrogant, antagonistic traits? Narcissists. In fact, even if you don't have many of trauma symptoms (yet), with enough exposure to narcissists, you will start to feel some of them gradually and it can get to the point of a disability. That's the other legitimate reason for "no contact". 

Most people do not want either a parent's control or their need for a role, and it's why a lot of adult children go "no contact" too, with the real narcissistic parents at the advice of a therapist (trauma therapists especially advise it because you cannot heal when narcissists are in your life - narcissists cause trauma in most people via the traits they have, the most difficult traits I listed above). 

Discussion about toxic dysfunctional families:

What are toxic families? According to Google AI these are some of the ingredients that make up a toxic family (copied in dark red): 

A toxic family is a system of relationships characterized by consistent, dysfunctional behaviors—such as manipulation, emotional or physical abuse, and control—that harm members' well-being and mental health. Instead of offering support, these families often create environments of fear, guilt, and stress, frequently causing members to feel drained, belittled, or trapped.

Some other things discussed in the article are lack of boundaries, manipulation and gaslighting, emotional/verbal abuse, conditional love, constant conflict, substance use/addiction, triangulation, scapegoat/golden child roles are evident. 

This is the definition of a dysfunctional family according to another Goole AI article:

A dysfunctional family is a family unit characterized by chronic conflict, poor communication, neglect, or abuse, where relationships are impaired and members cannot find support or safety. Such families often lack healthy boundaries, feature rigid roles, and exhibit behaviors like addiction, emotional unavailability, or excessive control. 

Some other things discussed in the article are poor communication, neglect and abuse, unhealthy boundaries, lack of empathy, rigid roles, substance abuse or mental illness, poor emotional regulation. 

If I had my druthers, I'd switch the definitions as I personally tend to think of toxic extended families as full of members who are dealing with rigid roles and extremely unhealthy emotional dynamics in their own special way: through drinking and drugging, having a mental illness or personality disorder, PTSD or C-PTSD, full of both sycophants and rebellious members, incest or pedophilia, members who avoid their family, insufficient parenting, toxic emotional passtimes like making a laughing stock out of a member, hate speech, marked by more extra-marital affairs than loyalty to a partner, marked by more divorces than "sticking together", parents estranged from children, sibling estrangement, criminal behaviors, kids with conduct disorder, lots of poor conflict resolution skills, kids with debilitating auto-immune diseases, members who steal from other members, way too much conflict and drama, lots of unreasonable expectations, more arguing and unsolicited advice than pleasant conversation, lots of silencing of members, way too much "walking on eggshells", an entitled cruel older generation only concerned with outside appearances, marked by very little morality if any at all - basically families that are a mess and traumatizing. 

I know at least two families with all of these issues going on in their family, personally and in depth, and the family in the movie, August Osage County, is so very, very tame compared to these two families. One stands out with many estranged daughters (women and underage girls), and the other with incest and a murder in it. They are both generationally wealthy families, so what does that tell you? 

If your parent can deal with you being an ex-member of such a family and having just a relationship with you without other family members present, then that's a step in the right direction and an acknowledgement of why you want to back off and navigate your own life without the family's  interference and influence. Insisting you get along with abusive, or criminal, or incestuous members is never okay.

I have no problem, personally, with withdrawing from families like these. They are very hard on members, especially children. And who needs, as an adult, to expose one's own children to this and make a mess of their lives and mental health too? - this becomes the more important reason to go very, very low contact or no contact at all. If you have parents who emotionally abuse you and treat you like dirt under their feet, that can teach your children and other family members to treat you this way too. 

You can, of course, try to keep contact with a few members, but often families like this are so enmeshed and deeply enabling of criminal and cruel behaviors that it can mean "no contact" in the end, with all of them (except, perhaps, other estranged members).  

Also families with this much toxicity and dysfunctionality in them, usually have, at their core, the worst members sticking together and condoning each other's child abuse, or pretending there is no alcoholism or incest in the family, or making the family unsafe by excusing and enabling members for committing crimes. 

The worst part of it all is that these are usually the members who retaliate and plan revenges for  members who are in pain from family members' actions, and can no longer tolerate the egregious illegalities or cruelties, excuses, and enabling of the bad actors in their family. 

If adult children cannot find support, peace, love, affection, reasonable expectations in terms of tolerance and are controlled in negative ways, and every step of the way about fulfilling perfectly normal aspirations and decisions about their own life, they have a right to divorce their families and find it elsewhere. 

That's the way I feel about it. 

Upcoming:

In another post I'll be talking about the positives and negatives of what I call "The No Contact Revolution" with Millennials and Gen Z leading the way on it.

Post script on 2/19/26: Instead of responding to this post in the comments section below, Peep wrote a whole post as a comment HERE. Perhaps the two of us will continue to post about this issue as new information becomes available on this trend. At this moment I don't see it as much different than the trend of high divorce rates in the 1970s, but perhaps it is. Does it hurt more than the trend from the 1970s? Maybe, maybe not, so I'll look into this subject more. 

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