To reference what I'm talking about in this post, I am responding to Peep's article on the "No Contact" issue sweeping the nation that she discusses through this link. She has also written and illustrated a book about why she went "no contact" with her own parent and most of her family and you can buy her book through this link to find out why (the book includes cartoons which helps to lighten a dark subject a bit, kind of the way comedians do it).
However, this does not mean that she feels that all adult children should go "no contact". Far from it ...
Anyway, her article talks about the subject of "no contact". Apparently parents who have had children go "no contact" on them are in an uproar. "No contact" (estrangement from the parent) is having its "backlash moment" where many parents on social media are banding together to complain about how they are being treated and either shaming the act of "no contact" or shaming their children or retaliating against their children because of it.
However, Some of them blame therapists instead.
Many of these parents feel they have been really good parents and that therapists are mistaken in suggesting or supporting "no contact" as an answer to their child's distress.
And some of them are taunting their children too: "Just you wait and see! I'm going to have a perfectly peaceful happy life without you! In fact, I'm going to forget you ever existed! My life is mine going forward and you are never going disrupt it with your complaining and issues ever again!"
I have no problem with parents "finding a way to be happy without their children", but the taunt will never build a bridge should you ever want them back, or to teach them about good "bridge building" or "what reconciliation looks like". Maybe you don't want them back ever again, and that's your choice, but make sure it is a choice that you can live with for the rest of your life as taunting is very unlikely to change the trajectory of "no contact" that your child has initiated.
I also acknowledge the pain that many of you are going through. I have friends who are going through this too (being ghosted by a child) and some of the reasons for it do seem flimsy compared to children who really do have narcissistic or psychopathic parents and have never been treated in a fair, on-going kind, non-painful or equal way. In other words, narcissistic and psychopathic parents enjoy hurting at least one child and using their power to get what they want out of their children (they are also very controlling kinds of parents with little to no empathy ... although narcissists tend to regret hurting their children over time; psychopathic parents never have any regrets hurting anyone, including their own child). And that's how you tell the difference between the children who "go no contact" over real trauma and damage to their health than children who "go no contact" for other reasons.
Parental taunting of your own children or any child is a narcissistic trait, and its another reason why you may not want to use it (it may be used as proof for your child), even if you feel angry and want to lash out. So is retaliatory behavior. It can peg you as a narcissist and give a child proof. Retaliatory behavior against a child is also illegal if they are still a child under the age of 18, and considered to be under the umbrella of instigating more conflict and can escalate to "coercive control" (another link) which is increasingly becoming illegal in the United States and is already illegal in most European countries.
Taunting and retaliation are not likely to give you peace of mind or to make the pain of separation go away anyway. Neither is the attitude that you are an exceptional parent. Shaming will not work either and often reinforces their desire to stay away. All of these tactics are ineffectual to reconciliation.
These are my major gripes with this movement to make children feel accountable and guilty for going "no contact". It just puts both child and parent on their own insular islands, afraid of reconciliation, and of one another, rather than opening up a dialogue to mend fences.
However, I have an open mind and tend to look at situations from both sides - the negatives and positives, the good and bad, the children who are going "no contact" and the parents who are hurt by the trend.
So here is what I think ...
Is there a demand behind "no contact"?
In my opinion, for a lot of Gen Z and Millennials there is. I'll get to it later in the post.
Is it reasonable that 16 - 25 percent of all of America's population is "no contact" with at least one family member and that 30 percent of Gen Zers are estranged from at least one parent?
Probably not. However, it is the reality of the present situation. I think it is important to deal with realities instead of depressive thinking or hopeful thinking.
But what's the best way to deal with it?
When I look at Peep's blog post on this, and the responses of parents going through this, it becomes obvious that it's not going to get better by parents retaliatating against their child (because it is a generational shift after all) and going "no contact" themselves with their children, or indulging in all of the tit-for-tat I'm seeing, is copying what these adult children are doing. It would be hypocritical, right?
It's not going to get better through narcissistic tactics either (even if it is just one of the tactics) - the reality of the situation is that scientifically narcissistic tactics have been shown not to work at ending "no contact". They have very tentative troubling short term success at best, with the final outcome being "a type of destruction" of the child and a "destruction of the relationship with the child".
And to use narcissistic styles in relationships or tit-for-tat reasons, is teaching both other parents and future children that "no contact" is normal - as normalized as divorce, as normalized as finding a new job, as normalized as hiring and firing workers, and that anyone has a right and privilege to divorce any person at any time, no matter the destruction it causes.
It's also a fact that estrangement in families is increasing, not decreasing.
I feel it is important to deal with these facts. The facts aren't going to go away by themselves or from the drumming of constant complaints from children or from estranged parents.
Who wants children if they are just going to divorce you, right? And who wants parents if they invalidate, don't listen, are so far from understanding a child's personality, thoughts, experiences, feelings and childhood and adult needs, that parents are treating children like their workers who they can fire at any time? What child would want a life like that, right?
Expect a low birth rate, right? Expect every old person for an entire century to be part of a boomer generation that young Americans are paying taxes to keep alive, right?
Does this have a good ending? Can it have a good ending?
So what can you do?
I really think that understanding all of the issues surrounding this trend is paramount. Without understanding the issues, it's like playing baseball in the dark of the night. You are going to miss the ball and never get off the home plate, so the trend is likely to continue and to deepen, not to resolve.
According to the younger generations, many have gone no contact over perceived toxic family dynamics and narcissistic traits in their parents (I suggest reading through the Google AI version and then going to the articles on this). I also cover the major points of both articles towards the end of this post.
Okay, so what is the demand behind the "no contact"?
Not using narcissistic tactics is definitely one of them. If you are inclined to use narcissistic tactics to solve a "no contact" situation, it will just cement the opinion that you are a narcissist. So that obviously can't work in ending "no contact".
If you are using any of the narcissistic tactics and a therapist catches it in a session, the therapist is likely to tell your child that narcissists don't change, so the "no contact" may continue over a lifetime over "that fact".
As far as going "no contact" over toxic family issues, it's complicated, and often "the choice of last resort". But there are reasons why Gen Z is going this way: many of them "just can't take added stress any more", at least where they are at this particular time, with many trying to find good paying jobs, some of them trying to pay off student loans with higher interest rates than their parents had to endure, trying to find adequate living quarters, trying to find a mate, trying to avoid the uptick of viruses since the pandemic hit, and all of the challenges that young adults are facing in today's world.
With 30 percent of the Gen Z and Millennials going "no contact", you aren't going to be able to shame, blame, continually criticize them, go tit-for-tat, or hurt your child out of "no contact" because these are also well known narcissistic tactics and traits. If you are not a narcissist you can stop at least most of these tactics that the "real narcissists" use. And if you're not a narcissist, it will be easy to transition out of these types of responses and behaviors.
As for the real narcissists, it won't be easy at all, or desirable to them, to transition out of these behaviors (it's a serious highly resistant-to-change personality disorder, a disability because they don't feel empathy or understand the perspectives of others, and a brain matter), and they will play the victim for years, decades and a lifetime about "how badly they were mistreated" without ever considering their own contributions to how the estrangement with their child happened. They will not understand others much, if at all. Some of them can recognize the feelings of others cognitively, but even that tends to be limited.
Anyway, understanding narcissistic tactics will hopefully keep you from using the tactics and hopefully help in solving some of the gap that is between you and your child.
You can read this blog as to what the narcissistic traits and tactics are, or go to other writers on the topic.
For the rest of the blog I have two sections, one for parents and one for children who are thinking of going "no contact" with a parent.
One key ingredient is not to make a child always accountable and responsible for reconciliation: If children have always tried to reconcile and cave under pressure to "get along with the parent" it is likely to stop at some point - it's a bad habit that often leads to trauma and a trauma bond.
A trauma bond is exceptionally unhealthy for anyone, especially children. And it does lead to "no contact" after awhile, especially when a child reaches adulthood.
Narcissists always try to make their child accountable for a rift or disagreement between them and their child. You may not want to do what narcissists do in this regard. Also, narcissists are known for trauma bonds with their children - you may not want to go down this road either to avoid estrangement.
If you want to tell a child that you are enjoying life without him or her, that sends a myriad of messages you may not want to send if what you actually want is reconciliation. One of the messages that you send when you say that you are enjoying life without them is that "parent and child estrangements are acceptable, joyful and normal, and I'm enjoying the estrangement." - probably not a good idea if you want a healthy bond.
If life is truly better without him or her in your world, make sure you want to send this message - it will be taken as rejection by almost all children, even adult children and will cause trauma.
If it causes a trauma bond, most therapists encourage patients to break trauma bonds so that they can live without trauma - this is also good to realize.
Children who are rejected in this way can struggle with panic ("Should I go back to my parent?") for a little while, maybe, but for the most part, they will not want to go back. If you understand what rejection feels like, you would not want to go back either.
Remember, you were their "first teacher" and they still listen, and more importantly see what you mean by your actions.
In order to keep a child in your life, avoid these other kinds of actions that narcissistic parents are know for too:
* Don't play games with rejection. Don't do fake discards. Here is another link to a discussion on fake discards. If you're going to reject them, mean it, i.e. don't turn it into a manipulation or punishment over unfavorable behavior from them - only do it because you really don't ever want to see them or be in a relationship with them again for the rest of your life.
For an underage child, bring them to your local hospital and tell the social workers there that you no longer want your child and that you are dropping him or her off to be parented by someone else.
If your child is an adult, tell them that you no longer want to talk to them or be in their presence again, and mean it.
If you do fake discards it will most likely turn into an estrangement anyway because discards, even fake ones, are traumatizing and deeply unsettling to any child, even an adult child. They will no longer trust you as a teacher or that you will put their well being and safety as a priority.
Don't reject them and then turn around to give them positive reinforcement once they are doing what you want. This does not work with adult children. This includes silencing your adult child, giving them the silent treatment, telling them that they are "useless", periods of real rejections followed by honeymoons, micro-rejections and neglect. The cycle of abuse that narcissists use is about rejections with honeymoon periods (positive reinforcements after rejection) and a dangerous game of manipulation that narcissists are known for. Rejections to play head games to hurt a child (punish them without regret or remorse) is more of an Antisocial Personality Disorder trait (note narcissists can have both Narcssistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder resulting in malignant narcissism).
If you don't use discards or rejection and you feel confident that you will never use them when angry, you are way ahead of narcissists and psychopaths who use this tactic religiously and destructively.
Children are not going to look to parents who use discards, fake discards, rejections, silent treatments to get parental approval. While it may work for awhile, especially when they are very young, it won't last and even underage children are more likely to "be more and more independent minded", and not want to be influenced by you, which can mean eventual "no contact".
Also make sure you are not using rejection as a retaliatory measure against your child when they go "no contact" as it just reinforces that "no contact" is good for interpersonal problems. If you are angry or heartbroken over "no contact", or don't believe "no contact" is good for relationships, don't retaliate with a "no contact" response.
* Don't "toot your own horn" or act arrogant if you want reconciliation. Arrogance is also a narcissistic trait and what it shows is "I am right and you are wrong, and as long as I think I'm the best parent in the world, nothing will change between us. It's all your fault and it's your burden to make up with me." - it doesn't work.
* Constant shaming and criticizing doesn't work in terms of reconciliation and is also a narcissistic trait. It also can teach a child that constant shaming and criticizing is normal and okay to practice - even when it comes to shaming and criticizing you. It is also one of the four horseman of the apocolypse (relationships that don't last). If you want tolerance for yourself, practice tolerance towards others.
* Don't put your children in contests with each other for your love and approval. It doesn't work, and it is also a narcissistic trait. Again, what does that teach them? To put you on notice when they are an adult that you have to work hard for their approval and care too?
It tends to teach lessons about empathy too. "I don't have to have empathy for you when I disapprove of you!" - that sends a bad message.
If one child is always getting the approval and another child isn't - that is a sign of scapegoating which is also a narcissistic trait. After awhile the child who does not get approval gets used to it, stops trying, doesn't seek it and gets the message that they are "odd man out" and that they have to seek a life of independence, which can mean "independent from you". This happens on a "brain level" in a young child, by the way, especially if the child experiences scapegoating at an early age, which most scapegoats do - usually by age 4 and lasting a lifetime. This "brain change" cannot be changed back into caring what your opinions of them are.
Some of this will be discussed more in another post about why scapegoats will never be, and can never be sycophants or approval seekers - at least without faking it (some scapegoats fake it so that they aren't rejected, since most of them know that their parent wants admiration so badly, even if they do not really care if their parent admires them or not).
If you can tolerate a child who is not an approval-seeker, then you can probably reconcile, but if you can't, the "no contact" is much more likely to never end.
Narcissists are approval seekers (they seek approval from external sources - called narcissistic supply - an opposite of what scapegoats usually seek), and they can never give up narcissistic supply seeking, and are therefore not good candidates for reconciliation from children they have hurt, or scapegoated.
If you aren't a narcissist and can give up on "looking superior" (which also won't work with non-approval seekers) and you can share the power equally with your child, then you are closer to reconciliation than any narcissist will ever be.
Some of the other traits that defines reasons for narcissistic supply includes arrogance, needing validation they are superior to others, needing constant admiration, needing on-going good and bad attention, and needing constant flattery even when exploiting or threatening others.
It should all be left behind in favor of what is really happening moment to moment and hearing clearly what is really going on. If you can watch a heartbreaking movie and cry because you are identifying with the character, you can listen to your own child in the same way.
In fact, giving up narcissistic supply needs is preferable, and if you are not a narcissist, it should come easy. If you are a narcissist, you won't even want to read this suggestion. To real narcissists, others should want accolades, approval, attention at all times, constant validations and admiration just like they crave. It seems unfathomable to any narcissist that narcissistic supply isn't necessary to function.
But if narcissistic supply needs are such a necessity, why are so many narcissists estranged from children, divorced from spouse(s), estranged or disliked by siblings, fired so often from jobs? And most of them are. I can't see that narcissistic supply is a route to a happy life. And neither do most children who see all of this.
The narcissistic supply they give and get is very, very temporary, and can be downright annoying (as annoying as narcissists in the public eye - as well as exhausting and irritating in terms of their latest schemes to supply themselves with more of it).
Leaving behind a need for any kind or source of narcissistic supply for the rest of us I would think would be very free-ing as well as "dealing with the reality of situations instead of being hopeful or rejecting of situations." Perhaps feelings of "never-enoughness" go away too.
You're also able to approach difficult emotional situations with humility, and the desire for deep understanding and knowledge (as again, it's about dealing with realities, not beliefs, not hopes, not dreams, not disappointments, not boredom). You are enjoying a type of intimacy rather than "future illusions" of what can and can't be. And most of all, you aren't putting a child in a role or expecting something from them - you are letting reality be what it is.
It puts you in a much better position for reconciliation among equals - which is really what Millennials and Gen Z tend to demand from their relationships in general, from both parents and peers.
You would be way ahead of narcissistic parents if narcissistic supply is not on your mind and agenda when thinking about reconciliation with a child.
Other things to avoid that look and sound narcissistic:
* Don't gaslight your kids, call them crazy, or spread smear campaigns about them in order to get support from others. This is true especially in trying to force a child to give up "no contact". It won't won't work and it is likely to widen the rift.
* Don't call your kids stupid or inept, or insinuate it. Again, it's a sign of contempt and contempt is a sure predictor of a relationship that will fail.
* Don't assume you know what your child is feeling, thinking and experiencing. If you stick to opinions on this, it can mean you will be wrong about half the time at least. It's not good to be wrong that much. It will mean your child won't have respect for your opinions. Going "no contact" over parental perpecticide is often one of the top reasons for "no contact" among adult children in today's "estrangement revolution" in the USA.
Perspecticide is an excuse for not listening, not understanding, not engaing, and it is destructive. Children can use it on you too when they get to the point that it is no longer worth it to explain themselves "to deaf ears".
When perspecticide is used a lot by a parent, it doesn't seem like a "real relationship" to a child. It becomes an anxiety ridden painful endurance test instead.
Another reason not to use it: narcissists use it in spades. They are exceptionally tethered to unchanging beliefs, a severe form of confirmation bias, instead of exploring the realities of what their child is experiencing.
That just doesn't work for any child - there is, in essence, a turning away by both parent and child over constant misunderstandings. In order to avoid "no contact", confirmation bias should not be used or taught to children either verbally or through one's own actions.
Openness to perspectives should be the guiding light.
* Don't play financial games and favoritism games with children. This is also a narcissistic trait you may want to avoid.
You are not their boss and they are not your subordinate worker.
If your children go insubordinate on you, what message does this send? "You're fired?" - the sign of rejection?
What happens to bosses who are cruel, or humiliate, and fire their workers? Either the worker makes promises and buckles down for awhile, or they look for another job while working for you or they quit on their own terms, or they get another job right away.
Is this what you really want a relationship with your child to be like?
And what message does it send? That it's okay to treat family members as workers? And what if other family members, or neighbors, or other authoritarians want your child to work for them too? It opens the door to exploitation, which opens yet another door to trauma.
It's better to leave work in the workplace where there are rules and regulations with legal protections.
* Even if you are deeply hurt by the estrangement, I would avoid the very common narcissistic phrase, "ungrateful". I can see how parents who have put a lot of energy, time, money, thought, and consideration into parenting, only to see their child run off and avoid them at all cost. Where is the reciprocality, the acknowledgement that you did good things for them?
But I would avoid it because it's a word most narcissistic parents use about at least one of their children. That link categorizes that narcissistic phrase as a guilt-inducing manipulation to get a child compliant. And what's more, most children know why it's being used, and most therapists know that it is used to sidestep the real issues.
It's also an aggressive form of perspecticide where the parent doesn't have to listen or deal with the real issues, or the difficult ones, that probably led to "no contact".
Adult children who are dealing with this side-stepping of real issues and are traumatized by it also will not listen to how ungrateful they are. It achieves absolutely nothing of value. At best it achieves nothing except deaf ears from the adult child and from the parent - neither want to hear what the other has to say.
Most likely the issues don't have to do with ingratitude anyway. Your child may be perfectly grateful, and in ways you prefer, but he or she may be bullied by a sibling and you never did anything to stop the tajectory of violence, and when they've endured enough, you tell them to apologize to the violent sibling.
Or your child may feel unnaturally controlled and invalidated by you and feel you are not able to address it (real narcissists aren't able to address it - but if you aren't a narcissist it may be to your benefit to tell your child that you will address it when they are ready to break "no contact").
Or he or she may have gotten a terrible illness and felt no empathy or concern from you about it.
Real narcissistic parents will never get beyond thinking "ingratitude" about their child because narcissists are chronic guilt-inducers who get stuck in it. It's like they sink in it too. They must believe that nothing is their fault and that all problems and issues are someone else's fault, especially a child who has gone "no contact".
If you can get beyond getting stuck in an "ingratitude" thinking style and want to meet halfway to solve the relationship issues between you, again, you are way ahead of real narcissists who most often get stuck for life on this one merry-go-round style of thought and never think beyond it.
* Do you have a lack of empathy? Do you feel you have to pretend to feel empathetic? The reason I ask is because it is a narcissistic trait.
I'm not sure what can be done about it, but it may cause estrangement with people in your life and probably has already - a lot.
I'm not sure what the answer is here except to try to understand what people are going through cognitively and imagining yourself in the situations they are going through.
In fact, imagine yourself going through those same situations over and over again. Do it a lot and often, especially if your child is estranged and you don't want the estrangement to continue. Even partial understanding is a kind of bridge, or a prevention from a widening rift.
If you can't do it, or don't want to do it, there is your answer as to how much you'll understand and what kind of knowledge you are going to receive, if any.
Children aren't toys, and if you have estranged children, you know they don't want to be toys.
Other reasons for why children go "no contact":
Why do children set boundaries with their parents?
What is stated through that link is that children set boundaries with their parents to "establish autonomy, protect their mental health, and foster mutual respect. These limits, common in adulthood, often arise from a need to manage toxic behaviors, such as overprotecting or controlling, and to navigate differing values or past hurt."
If they are retreating because they feel the need for more autonomy, or to protect their mental health, because they are hurt from past traumas or abuse (isolating), or they simply want to manage their own lives, or because they have different values and opinions than you do, or because there are shifting priorities and that most their attention needs to go to their spouse and children, crashing through these boundaries is not going to make them loosen boundaries; it is going to make them toughen up the boundaries. It is a sign of disrespect to push against boundaries.
Respect is a two-way street. The more you sow respect for a child, the more respect they will show you - usually.
Since narcissists make it their agenda to crash through as many boundaries as possible even to the point of stealing from their children for malignant narcissists, it's just not a good idea to disrespect boundaries. Reconciling over broken boundaries becomes impossible when too many boundaries are broken.
* Lifestyle reasons. They feel you will reject them over a lifestyle, and they really identify with people in that lifestyle.
* Moving: if they move far away, you aren't going to be the center of their world. Again, this is a fact, rather than something to try to change. Pressure to live closer can create more distance.
* Broken promises.
* Political reasons. A lot of people in America are experiencing estrangements over politics. That link points to 1 in 5 Americans reporting being estranged from a family member due to politics. Political perspectives at the moment are becoming very divisive. Politicians are also promoting, going along with, or enabling the divisiveness. Realize that constantly contrasting themselves to other politicians is a "get the vote tactic" and does not need to be in your livingroom, diningroom, or any room.
But it is being recreated in livingrooms now. Many liberals and people of color feel punished and distrustful, and most conservatives feel elated and empowered (that may be waning a bit at the present time).
Does a personal relationship need to be like what politicians do to each other?
While I think, generally, that silencing family members is not a good idea, perhaps tolerance is. No one has your personality and brain and because of that there are always going to be differences between people when it comes to politics. Some families have reached the consesus that politics should not be discussed in the home so that relationships between them aren't infected by it.
Politics may be the main reason there are family rifts. 1 in 5 is 20% as a reason for being estranged from a family member. It is close to the 30% of Gen Z going "no contact" with a parent. So who knows. It isn't clear whether politics figures into one of the reason for going "no contact", but it may actually be a bigger reason than other reasons, including narcissists in the family, or maybe some families with deep devotion or deep disgust are narcissistic enough that they cannot tolerate a child of a different political persuasion in their midst.
Sometimes chidren can be the ones who are narcissistic.
It's common for narcissistic children to name their parents as narcissists since projection is part of the narcissist's game.
Narcissists will also discard their parents when they are no longer useful to them.
Narcissistic children will also put parents through honeymoon and rejection cycles just like any narcissist will do.
Here are the more common ways that children adopt narcissistic traits:
Hearing adults shame others is likely to picked up by a child. If they see that an adult gets what he wants out of shaming, or raging, they will think that's a good way to get what they want too. And then the empathy for others goes away, and eventually that adult child puts their focus on what they can get out of shaming.
If they see an adult shaming someone by discarding someone else, and then the other person comes back pleading, they may think that "no contact" will have those same results: that people will come back pleading and they will get everything they want. After awhile discarding becomes a bad habit, and they use it on their parent too.
It is one reason why discards and shaming should not be used in family relationships - these are the number one ways that children become unempathetic narcissists who discard others when they aren't getting what they want. They will discard their parents, siblings and children if they feel they are not getting enough narcissistic supply. With parents it can mean "not getting enough money", "not getting enough flattery","not getting enough privileges", "not coming first" (narcissists believe they are superior to others), "not getting something they expected".
Children most often become narcissistic from contact with narcissistic adults. It can sometimes be a much older brother or sister, or a close friend with narcissistic qualities, but usually it's parents, and secondarily, grandparents, uncles, aunts, or a much older sibling
Narcissistic adults who are shaming others in the ear shot of children, can't deal with shame themselves without becoming highly dysregulated emotionally, even lashing out at their children, but dish it out in copious ways. If they are dishing out constant shaming to a child, children aren't capaple of dealing with it, and either become deaf and independent to it, or freeze and dissociate when they hear it, or learn to fawn and shapeshift into different "admirable", "acceped" or scheming personality styles to deal with it all - and it is the fawners and shapesifters who are the most likely to become future narcissists.
There is a lot more to this subject, but those are "the basics".
This can create entitlement and feelings of being special, spared, loved exclusively, getting loyalty and the bulk of family resources, and arrogance. Empathy in this case, is not being encouraged in this child, or by this child. When someone else, especially another child, is being shamed aggessively and constantly, and the narcissist-to-be is not receiving the same treatment, it often means a child who is being molded into a budding narcissist with the false sense that they are better and superior in comparison to shamed children.
Comparing themselves to others is very much a part of a narcissist's inner world, and it becomes part of the budding narcissist's world too.
Even if the narcissism is detected before the child becomes an adult, it is often too late to turn these traits around. Children learn empathy early on, and if they are never encouraged to have empathy, and to compete instead, they probably never will have empathy. If they don't have empathy as a young child, or it disappears during childhood, it's pretty much a given that they will never have it.
This narcissism eventually can be turned on the parents as "no contact" or a discard that is hard to understand. Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a psychologist and expert on narcissism, has made the statement that shaming has no place in a child's life or in child rearing.
Instead of shaming, understand what children are feeling and why, soothe and de-escalate, teach siblings co-operation and empathy as they play together - it is a much better way to avoid having a narcissistic child.
Some other things that create a budding narcissist:
* Seeing or hearing adults bully children.
* Seeing or hearing adults talk haughtily about the exploitation of others.
* Seeing or hearing adults be elated and celebratory when they hurt other people
* Seeing or hearing another child receiving gaslighting from an adult (the budding narcissistic child learns to manipulate others when they observe gaslighting)
* Seeing or hearing elation about an adult giving someone the silent treatment and how they got their way when the silence was broken
* Seeing or hearing adults reject/discard their own children
* Seeing or hearing adults who are unethical and reveling in getting away with being unethical
* Seeing or hearing how adults feel after they have gotten a divorce and the destructive arguments around issues of divorce
* Seeing or hearing adults deal with cheating in a marriage (shows children how to get away with things, shows how much empathy is required of people who hurt other people, shows a child what is reasonable for a break-up with another person, shows what fighting fairly and unfairly looks like and what the repurcussions are, and what to adopt)
* Seeing or hearing adults not being empathetic of people who they have hurt
* Latch key kids or neglected children often do not have the ability to self regulate or know what proper behavior is (they are left alone to figure all of this out for themselves, and are even expected to guess their way through it). Children are naturally narcissistic, and they may very well be narcissistic as they deal with their siblings alone in a house. And since they get used to being so alone without adults around, they can live without parents when they become adults too.
Children tend to be taught by actions rather than by lectures. However, there can't be hypocrisy in lectures to be effective learning experiences for the child.
When narcisistic adult children go "no contact" with a parent, it will often feel like a manipulation rather than a "I can't deal with the pain from being in this relationship."
The narcissistic child after discarding a parent will often turn to a "high lifestyle of partying", or extreme sports, and often focus on money, building wealth, competing, drinking, drugging, travel, sex, power, control and getting narcissistic supply, and feel superior, on top of the world, bullet proof, and arrogant, whereas the latter "suffering kind of child" who goes "no contact" with a parent because they are in pain, will be dealing with unsolved emotional issues, getting a lot of counseling, will go through a period of cognitive dissonance (and perhaps some pleading before giving up on you), and will be traumatized, depressed, isolating themselves from you or the entire family, and become more withdrawn, introverted and choosy about who they get close to. They become more closed to communication, insulated, and they batten down the hatches, finding refuge in their own home.
Narcissistic children can be a parent's worst nightmare. A child whose focus is on money, power, exploiting others, partying, a high lifestyle, and narcissistic supply, is not really into taking care of older people or solving relationship problems. "Everything that my parent is going through is their fault" will be the attitude.
Knowing that you have a narcissistic child without empathy can be a shock to your system and traumatizing. Narcissistic children do their discards and love bombing repeatedly, and get distracted by "better narcissistic supply" often.
In this case, counseling may be the best option in terms of help in finding the best ways to heal from it, and deal with it.
IS YOUR FAMILY REALLY TOXIC
AND ARE YOUR PARENTS REALLY NARCISSISTS?
First of all, do your parents really fit the official diagnoses in the DSM 5?
Or is it just a few traits? If it is just a few traits, some progress can probably be made in terms of understanding, comprehension and reconciliation.
However, going through this list is often not enough.
Here is what a lot of children of narcissists go through:
* Trauma symptoms
* Hightened anxiety, jumpiness, heightened hypervigilance, fear of seeing or having to deal with their parent
* Disturbed sleep, profound lack of sleep, jumpy and awake at the slightest sound
* Nightmares about their narcissistic parent hurting them or who seem elated at seeing them hurt
* Nightmares about their narcissistic parent stalking them
* Nightmares about adverse situations they want to forget
* Intrusive vivid memories about a traumatic event or events at inconvenient times
* Easily triggered by sights and sounds of traumatic events that featured their parent in the past
* Easily triggered by being around other family members that remind them of their narcissistic parent
* Easily triggered by hearing or seeing arguments, shouting, swearing, name-calling, loud voices, rage, belligerence, goading, taunting, threats, blackmail, gaslighting, arguments that are intensifying
* Easily triggered by love bombing (people coming on too strong, flatterers)
* Easily triggered and depressed being around people who threaten abandonment of others (often resulting in the freeze trauma response)
* Easily triggered by people telling others to shut up or to stop talking
* Easily triggered by commanding, demanding, bossy people
* Easily trigered by individuals who show profound confirmation bias
* Easily triggered by people who pretend to be a victim
* Easily triggered by violence, violent movies, wars, war footage, thrillers
* Easily triggered by controlling, antagonistic, raging, arrogant people
* Sometimes triggered by competitions and games
* Sometimes triggered by triangulation
* Sometimes triggered by fireworks, loud banging noises, loud pops, fizzles
* Sometimes triggered by dangerous sports
* A profound sense that they need to heal the hurt and constant intrusive memories that they can't seem to stop on their own, and that seems to follow them around. Most victims of narcissists go to a counselor, psychologist or psychiatrist (and yes, many of them will suggest going "no contact" to keep your child from further slides into more trauma)
* A desperate need for peace in private life and in the world at large (peace being "the great healer")
* Severe cases: A profound feeling that they should be alone, that they can no longer deal with human beings
* Sometimes: body aches - all of the muscles of the body can freeze up, be effected, but otherwise it feels like the kind of body aches you get when you get the flu except they are there all of the time
* Often: Stomach aches, stomach upset, IBS, celiacs, and in extreme cases: nausea, vomiting with an inability to calm nerves enough to stop it
* Severe cases: Involuntary body movements (jerking, shivering, mimicing restless leg syndrome)
* Severe cases: Involuntary body freeze responses where you can't move, the body stiffens like a corpse, and can barely breathe (can get worse with someone shouting or making commands - there has been a lot of research into this trauma response lately - I'll be talking about this when I get to the trauma section of this blog)
* Severe cases: Suicide ideation, hopelessness
* Severe cases: Inability to ask for help or trust people in the helping professions
* Often: Heart problems: palpitations, pressure and tightness in the chest, heart rhythm problems. Heart disease is very common among victims of narcissistic abuse. Heart problems also include light-headedness, faintness, dizziness and respiratory distress.
* Often: Headaches. In severe cases: Headaches that never go away, that go on day after day, week after week, month after month. Stress headaches and tension headaches are the most common and often come with tenderness in the scalp, neck and shoulders with fatigue. Can come with ocular symptoms such as sensitivity to light, eye strain, and eye pain. It can also mean the symptoms worsen when triggered. Doctors treating headache sometimes also suggest "no contact" to minimize the issues setting off the headaches, especially if a mental health counselor has also suggested it.
* Extremely common: Autoimmune diseases. The most common are IBS, IBD, Crohn's, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Lupus, Asthma, Celiacs, and Thyroiditis.
* Common: Increased risk for cancer. Most prevalent are gastrointenstinal cancers, female cancers, and skin cancers. More here and here.
* Often when anxious or afraid: pacing, walking fast, repetetive motions
* Sometimes (moderate to severe cases): problems talking: stuttering, repetetive words, slurred speech, hoarseness, weak voice from shallow breathing, getting emotional or teary while talking because of the frustaration of getting their point across, difficulty finding the right words, losing train of thought, inability to speak (freeze response) about certain subjects. Trauma specialists can also suggest "no contact" when speech impediments show up in their patients.
* A desperate feeling that they need to heal from physical symptoms associated with trauma and PTSD
Note: this is not a full list.
This list also doesn't necessarily mean your parent is a narcissist, so I have another answer for that.
There are alot of other narcissistic traits that are not in the DSM, so I took the time to list the more important traits (with links) to be aware of, especially in close personal relationships, to help you decipher whether your parent really is a narcissist.
Some other traits of narcissists are:
* Tendendecy to become prejudiced.
* They enjoy creating drama and chaos
* They often rage if they detect any criticism or difference of opinion from theirs - in other words they tend to think they are right all of the time and will not tolerate being shown they are wrong.
* They enjoy arguments that have no resolution. They turn arguments into personal attacks instead.
* They tend to have destructive arguing styles.
* They tend to blame shift.
* They have a tendency to be cruel.
* Narcissists will insist that they chronically have to have their own way
* As far as they are concerned, there is no place for compromise, co-operation or understanding; they have to have their own way.
* They often play the victim if they aren't getting their way.
* You may tend to feel invisible around them because narcissists are often too self centered, self focused, and self involved to notice that you are a different person with different traits.
* They tend to have extra-marital affairs and to be disloyal in general.
* Narcissists tend to be highly manipulative and controlling.
* They tend to feel more superior in comparison to other people.
* They cannot fathom that they are not superior to other human beings (delusions of grandeur)
* Narcissists feel that arguing gets them their way by wearing down the other person (zero-sum game, chronically dominant oriented)
* Narcissists feel that being dominant at all times is the only way they feel emotionally regulated
* Narcissists feel they must be dominant in order to enjoy a relationship.
* They tend to feel threatened by the success of others.
* They tend to feel more jealousy and envy than other people do.
* They tend to be intolerant of others except sycophants.
* Narcissists tend to be exploitive.
* Narcissists tend to silence others or talk over them to control the narrative.
* Narcissists tend to lie (a lot) to serve their reputation. They have no commitment to the truth.
* Narcissists have no moral or ethical convictions, but tend to appear to have them to serve their reputation. They also display moral hypocrisy, i.e., holding others to saint-like ethical standards that they never practice themselves.
* Narcissists tend to express more ingratitude about their relationships than satisfaction.
* When narcissists don't get their way, they tend to run smear campaigns on you.
* Narcissists tend to use the silent treatment on people closest to them to get their own way.
* They gaslight.
* Narcissists practice love bomb, devalue, discard - the cycle of abuse in close relationships and with at least one child.
* Narcissists can become highly retaliatory and vengeful.
* Narcissists can turn to crime if they don't get their way.
These are "the basics" of how most narcissists relate to other human beings they are close to.
If your parent can compromise, and discuss issues without insisting they get their way, and they can argue points fairly and equitably, and still have empathy and consideration for your feelings, you may not want to close the door on them (they are likely to go through trauma by your "no contact").
Assuming your parent is not a narcissist, once trauma symptoms take hold, the nervous system goes into survival mode. The body and brain go into shock, the sympathetic nervous system releases cortisol and adrenaline, and the person finds themselves eventually "on guard" and hypervigilant to attacks. The initial phases may mean a freeze trauma response, a fight trauma response, a flee trauma response or less likely with a child a fawn trauma response.
The "fight trauma response" can have some controlling aspects to it, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are a narcissist unless they are in that mode most of the time. ... In other words, if their major traits are these: aggression, highly critical of you or others, argumentative, antagonistic, micro-managing or exceptionally controlling, disrespectful, lying, unempathetic ... all with an inability to take criticism or complaint without raging and/or threatening, but fighting back with a plethora of criticisms themselves - the latter being an important marker for narcissism since narcissism is primarily an "I can do what I want, but I'm going to make you miserable if you think you can do what you want. I'm going to control you and dominate you and call all of the shots - or else." - they may not say it exactly this way, but they'll say it in other ways. It is a major part of their personality disorder.
Assuming they aren't a narcissist, in the beginning they try to avoid people and places as they try to absorb the loss.
Then the grieving starts. And the confusion. Then persistent longing, distress, grief that has no closure, often social stigmas (usually for both parent and child, depending on the social circles), and high levels of stress and depression. Sometimes these set of symptoms, if they don't let up, mean gettting PTSD.
PTSD often comes with triggers (which are a short hand way of saying panic attacks and anxiety). This can mean that if they are ever in your company again, they will likely feel highly anxious and distrusting. They may be barely be able to speak. They may feel they can't speak, that they are walking on eggshells. They may cry and walk away from you. They may feel frozen and unresponsive.
However, the opposite can happen too, where they want to talk issues out with you. They may suggest therapy for both of you. They may show that they are up for resolution, compromise, accomodation, short visits or a long term commitment to healing wounds each has inflicted on the other, openness to understanding your point of view - Note: narcissists can't do any of these things.
In fact, if you tell a non-narcissistic parent that you need a break, they will understand and sometimes tell you that they'd like to resolve issues with you at what ever future date you'd like to schedule something.
If you never do it, even though the door is open, what do you want, if anything, that is causing this rift to be on-going?
Because if it's control over your parent, it won't work, and in general, most therapists will say there is no room for parents to have a major agenda to control an adult child, or for an adult child to control a parent once both people are adults.
Part of a parent understanding an adult child is letting go of control and expectation, and part of a child understanding who their parent is means letting go of control and expectation too. If you have children and you're too controlling, your child may be controlling too (they've learned it from you), so letting go of control has a better chance of mending a rift than increasing control. An agenda to control can also make you blind to who the other person is.
In general, agendas get in the way of truly knowing and understanding a person. If other reasons over-take, a relationship will never be satisfying.
If it's a toxic family matter where your uncle is a pedophile and you are not getting support and safety from your parent (or are blamed for the incidents instead), it's another matter which I bring up in the next section.
It is hard to re-establish a relationship or reconcile after "no contact", especially if your parent went through trauma after your "no contact". The bond between parent and child is usually strong, so strong that breaches to it will usually cause trauma symptoms.
In contrast, a true narcissisic parent can get over relationships by the usual mechanisms they use of "induce guilt first, and when realizing the relationship is over, deny wrong-doing, blame the other person 100 percent, and then run smear campaigns on them" (even if nothing they say is true). It's the default way all narcissists deal with relationships that split apart.
They also aren't invested in relationships. They are in relationships to control and dominate other people which makes it easy for them to reject people they can't control, or to get over them if the other person goes "no contact" on them. They are blind to who other people are mostly, and what their thoughts and feelings are because relationships are nothing more than power grabs and projections - it's what relationships have always been for them.
Most likely in their smear campaigns you will get projections of how they behave (in other words, they tell you that you and others that you have their worst qualities because they do not know you). It's a defense mechanism that works very well for them and keeps them shielded from most feelings of heartbreak.
And they will also think that your "no contact" is the way they do their "discards" of other people, to manipulate people and get more power over them.
One big difference between narcissists and non-narcissists is that narcissists seem to get over relationships really fast, being haughty and calloused afterward, have attitudes like "blech, I never liked him or her anyway!" (even when it comes to their own child), and they party or indulge themselves with spending, cruises, parties, drinking and drugging, clothes, and covorting with your enemies or with people who have hurt you - all another sign of narcissism.
In contrast, parents who are not narcissists will be going through a tremendous amount of grief and trauma.
If you want to reconcile with a narcissist, they often think you want to have domination or power over them (that's because that is what they do when they try to get others back in their life). So they are likely to reject you.
If they let you back, they may appreciate the narcissistic supply for awhile, but from knowing the stories of adult children of narcissists, the adult children were pretty severely punished soon afterward for going "no contact" in the first place. Their parent's retaliation became the major theme of their life shortly afterwards, which of course, usually means the adult child is dealing with more abuse which mostly turns into a life long rift or a lot more trauma.
If they pursue or sweet talk you, it's often to get you back in role serving them (the roles are discussed in this post) or to punish you.
Real child abuse survivors often find themselves wanting to get away from arrogant people, aggressive hostile people, conflict oriented people, argumentative types, controlling personalities, micro-managers, people who threaten other people to get their way, and antagonistic oriented people. They just want peace and safety, and that's their real reason for "no contact" - not to punish the parent.
And who is at the top for threatening, hostile, arrogant, antagonistic traits? Narcissists. In fact, even if you don't have many of trauma symptoms (yet), with enough exposure to narcissists, you will start to feel some of them gradually and it can get to the point of a disability. That's the other legitimate reason for "no contact".
Most people do not want either a parent's control or their need for a role, and it's why a lot of adult children go "no contact" too, with the real narcissistic parents at the advice of a therapist (trauma therapists especially advise it because you cannot heal when narcissists are in your life - narcissists cause trauma in most people via the traits they have, the most difficult traits I listed above).
Discussion about toxic dysfunctional families:
What are toxic families? According to Google AI these are some of the ingredients that make up a toxic family (copied in dark red):
A toxic family is a system of relationships characterized by consistent, dysfunctional behaviors—such as manipulation, emotional or physical abuse, and control—that harm members' well-being and mental health. Instead of offering support, these families often create environments of fear, guilt, and stress, frequently causing members to feel drained, belittled, or trapped.
Some other things discussed in the article are lack of boundaries, manipulation and gaslighting, emotional/verbal abuse, conditional love, constant conflict, substance use/addiction, triangulation, scapegoat/golden child roles are evident.
This is the definition of a dysfunctional family according to another Goole AI article:
A dysfunctional family is a family unit characterized by chronic conflict, poor communication, neglect, or abuse, where relationships are impaired and members cannot find support or safety. Such families often lack healthy boundaries, feature rigid roles, and exhibit behaviors like addiction, emotional unavailability, or excessive control.
Some other things discussed in the article are poor communication, neglect and abuse, unhealthy boundaries, lack of empathy, rigid roles, substance abuse or mental illness, poor emotional regulation.
If I had my druthers, I'd switch the definitions as I personally tend to think of toxic extended families as full of members who are dealing with rigid roles and extremely unhealthy emotional dynamics in their own special way: through drinking and drugging, having a mental illness or personality disorder, PTSD or C-PTSD, full of both sycophants and rebellious members, incest or pedophilia, members who avoid their family, insufficient parenting, toxic emotional passtimes like making a laughing stock out of a member, hate speech, marked by more extra-marital affairs than loyalty to a partner, marked by more divorces than "sticking together", parents estranged from children, sibling estrangement, criminal behaviors, kids with conduct disorder, lots of poor conflict resolution skills, kids with debilitating auto-immune diseases, members who steal from other members, way too much conflict and drama, lots of unreasonable expectations, more arguing and unsolicited advice than pleasant conversation, lots of silencing of members, way too much "walking on eggshells", an entitled cruel older generation only concerned with outside appearances, marked by very little morality if any at all - basically families that are a mess and traumatizing.
I know at least two families with all of these issues going on in their family, personally and in depth, and the family in the movie, August Osage County, is so very, very tame compared to these two families. One stands out with many estranged daughters (women and underage girls), and the other with incest and a murder in it. They are both generationally wealthy families, so what does that tell you?
If your parent can deal with you being an ex-member of such a family and having just a relationship with you without other family members present, then that's a step in the right direction and an acknowledgement of why you want to back off and navigate your own life without the family's interference and influence. Insisting you get along with abusive, or criminal, or incestuous members is never okay.
I have no problem, personally, with withdrawing from families like these. They are very hard on members, especially children. And who needs, as an adult, to expose one's own children to this and make a mess of their lives and mental health too? - this becomes the more important reason to go very, very low contact or no contact at all. If you have parents who emotionally abuse you and treat you like dirt under their feet, that can teach your children and other family members to treat you this way too.
You can, of course, try to keep contact with a few members, but often families like this are so enmeshed and deeply enabling of criminal and cruel behaviors that it can mean "no contact" in the end, with all of them (except, perhaps, other estranged members).
Also families with this much toxicity and dysfunctionality in them, usually have, at their core, the worst members sticking together and condoning each other's child abuse, or pretending there is no alcoholism or incest in the family, or making the family unsafe by excusing and enabling members for committing crimes.
The worst part of it all is that these are usually the members who retaliate and plan revenges for members who are in pain from family members' actions, and can no longer tolerate the egregious illegalities or cruelties, excuses, and enabling of the bad actors in their family.
If adult children cannot find support, peace, love, affection, reasonable expectations in terms of tolerance and are controlled in negative ways, and every step of the way about fulfilling perfectly normal aspirations and decisions about their own life, they have a right to divorce their families and find it elsewhere.
That's the way I feel about it.
Upcoming:
In another post I'll be talking about the positives and negatives of what I call "The No Contact Revolution" with Millennials and Gen Z leading the way on it.
Post script on 2/19/26: Instead of responding to this post in the comments section below, Peep wrote a whole post as a comment HERE. Perhaps the two of us will continue to post about this issue as new information becomes available on this trend. At this moment I don't see it as much different than the trend of high divorce rates in the 1970s, but perhaps it is. Does it hurt more than the trend from the 1970s? Maybe, maybe not, so I'll look into this subject more.
