Yes, there is a new course being offered to both professionals and "anyone interested" in how to break through the defensive behaviors of narcissists.
On Facebook, the advertisement appears this way:
The writing below it says this:
Working with narcissistic clients is one of the most challenging tasks therapists encounter.
It becomes even more complex when faced with their defensiveness, grandiosity, and lack of self-awareness – all designed to guard against vulnerability.
So, how do we get through these layers of defense? How do we create a therapeutic alliance that encourages vulnerability and empathy in these clients? Even more so, how can we be effective when traditional interventions seem to bounce off their fortified walls?
To answer these questions, we've curated this comprehensive, targeted online course featuring 22 of the world's leading experts in treating narcissism. Take a look: https://www.nicabm.com/program/fb-narcissism-1/...
Another advertisement on Facebook goes like this:
(CLOSING NOW) Dissolving the Defenses That Sustain Narcissism - Expert
The course features a well known psychiatrist, Bessel van der Kolk, MD who wrote the famous book, The Body Keeps the Score. This book is on the must-read list if you are going to college or graduate school and your major is a psychology degree or a Masters in Social Work in trauma research and/or trauma therapy.
Some of the other names associated with this course are: Janina Fisher, PhD, Peter Levine, PhD, Jennifer Sweeton, PsyD, Ron Siegel, PsyD, Lynn Lyons, LICSW, Russell Kolts, PhD, Zindel Segal, PhD, Shelly Harrell, PhD
When you click on the link, you get this:
https://www.nicabm.com/program/fb-narcissism-1/
There is also a course on how to treat victims.
This is one of the advertisements for this course:
Helping patients heal from trauma is one of the most challenging things therapists do.
It becomes infinitely more challenging when a patient is missing one key experience – a stable, secure relationship.
So how do we work with patients who are missing those cherished relationships? Beyond that, what do we do when traditional talk therapies don’t work?
That’s why we've created this short, focused online course with 5 of the world’s top trauma treating experts. Take a look: https://www.nicabm.com/program/a2-attachment-fb2/...
As for narcissists in treatment, I'm fine with professionals tackling this. However, if you've ever been in a personal relationship with a narcissist, or trauma bonded with one, and you suggest therapy with the idea that the narcissist is going to heal by examining and giving up on their defensive/aggressive strategies, and that by inference you will heal, and that your relationship will heal too, I don't see how it can work at all. They are more likely to rage at your suggestion that they need treatment. That is what fortification does; that is what grandiosity with defensiveness does; that is what only focusing on how much power, control and domination they have in relationships does.
Also if there is a power differential between you and the narcissist where the narcissist thinks you are less powerful than they are, suggesting this therapy could be a disaster, and dangerous in some situations. That's my take on it.
If they want to go on their own, it's another story.
If this was me, I wouldn't even suggest it. I also say this from experience dealing with this type of personality disorder. Most of them don't look at therapy as a learning experience or useful; they look at it as a put-down, something they use to shame other individuals mental capacities, emotional capacities, inability to get along with others, or if they insinuate that you are mentally challenged for not taking orders from them. Because of this, most of them will not look upon therapy in a positive light because of the way they use it in conflicts and arguments: "You need to get a grip; you need therapy bad!", "You sound insane. You need to see a shrink," "You need to stop. If you don't, I'll get you committed" and so on.
I'm not sure how they take situations that have very little chance of being resolved without therapy (going together for instance, like in marriage counseling), but even there they mostly will be rooting for themselves and manipulating to get their own way, calling you crazy for resisting control and domination, putting themselves in a dictator position, deciding to be a lecturer, and it won't be productive. Psychologists who deal with patients undergoing narcissistic abuse generally do not advise going to marriage counseling at all, and actually say it should be avoided. They usually suggest detaching yourself from the narcissist instead.
Also, if they are sometimes willing to go to therapy they can become more sneaky covert narcissists. I just can't see any positive benefit of suggesting it to a narcissist at this time, and with the knowledge I have about the issues surrounding narcissists, unless you are a therapist, or life coach, or someone who just wants to take this course to learn something, I really think the narcissist would only go to therapy at your suggestion to find a way to show that they can tough it out and that it's an "easy course", or to be resistant to it, or to challenge it, or to prove to you that they can go but that it isn't useful to them at all because you should be in therapy because you're the crazy one. I think most of us have been around and around many, many times with these narcissistic defenses and the inevitable attacks that come with narcissistic defenses.
I have not seen anyone in a "trauma bond experience" with a narcissist get anywhere except a worsening trauma bond (and that's after hearing at least a thousand stories from survivors of narcissistic abuse) - nothing lessens the trauma bond unless they find ways to mostly separate. With a power differential (parent and child, for instance), the trauma bond is even more destructive and pronounced, and I doubt any parent is going to go along with a child, grown or not, estranged or not, who says their parent needs to be in treatment for their personality disorder, or that issues between you need to be worked out in a therapeutic professional setting.
But for a boss to put a worker with traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder into a program of therapy, maybe it can help. The worker may do a better job, or be less contentious and less adversely competitive, stick to work rather than dirty gossip, and all of the other pitfalls narcissists fall into in the workplace, then it might do some good. How much good it does in anything other than a work situation, I don't know. Maybe they go home and kick the dog and spouse after therapy. Maybe not.
If you want to get some perspectives on what psychologists, therapists, life coaches and a little bit of the public are saying about this, I suggest reading the following comments (all of which are on the Facebook advertising pages for this course too - and available to see on that page for anyone).
* OMG. Totally here for this!!! And super interested… You’re doing the Lord’s work
I agree, at the heart of it is a wounded child and TRAUMA!!! It’s also really hard for narcissists to change, but kudos to those who try 
Luv u Bessel!
* I experienced a client who after cutting through these barriers would silently cry during sessions because it was so difficult to see herself as being wrong minded and accepting responsibility for her behaviors. But even through the tears she seemed to slowly appreciate the therapy. I agree tools are important when dealing with narcissistic personalities. Some truly struggle with seeing themselves as good.
* I'm an experienced life coach over decades & humans never fail to inspire me ….to learn more … As I develop insights into this patterning … I’m a little freaked by how this information might be applied without experience / expertise. I love that we can develop insights .. just mindful that to walk this delicate topic needs support .. keep connected to supervision groups as you navigate this arena.
* I think the training along with the life skills that therapists excel, can empower and change lives. I do not have any misconceptions about their gifts, mission, and knowledge. I appreciate and highly respect the life path they have chosen. Some of the resources therapists and doctors find for their clients are coaches. I have worked with both. Professional coaches have their place as well. I hope that they have training and are certified. I'd loved to see coaches in our schools K-12 teaching mindfulness etc. I believe that there is a place for all people with a passion to hone their gifts, talents, and abilities to contribute to others.
* schema therapy has had good results with narcissism
* An empathetic narcissist seems like an oxymoron. And how many even seek treatment since they think nothing is wrong with them?
* they absolutely think something is wrong with them. Which is why that facade feels so real. It’s a fully realized self that puts all the things they hate about themselves and buried it deep as possible. It’s a defense/coping mechanism. It’s something that can often be triggered on or off too
* if you realize they feel everything and then deflect it, hypersensitive. The vulnerability is there.
As far as I understand, treating perverse narcissism or the narcissism of "integrated psychopaths", for example, can be counterproductive as these types of personalities use what they "learn" in therapy to continue disguising their condition and manipulating others.
* I was very careful when exiting my relationship to give him as little information as possible that might make him more effective for the next woman. I had watched him learn and manipulate with me. The less we give them to improve their tactics, the better! --- This is one reason I would never work with someone with strong narcissistic or psychopathic traits.
* Think of narcissism, like most things on a spectrum. You are referring to the extreme end, which is more so just one aspect of antisocial personality disorder. I don’t believe that is what they are referring to in this advertisement but rather the mild to moderate range, which tends to be more associated with learned defensive strategies due to trauma/negative life experiences. People can also be very successful and have elevated levels of healthy narcissism that may be important to be mindful with how it comes out in times of stress. It can get confusing fast, for sure!
* patterns of behavior do in fact, validate a view point.
Society is being educated and taught how to spot abusive behavior.
The word abuse can replace the word narcissism in every situation.
the pattern of behavior is very identifiable quickly in these individuals
the number one pattern to show itself early is the compliment with put down technique to start the confusion and trauma bond early.
for example, wow, that is a nice looking sweater, but I think you belong in a more sporty looking outfit. This sweater is for someone older than you.
this is a compliment with a direct hit to your confidence.
the sweater is nice
but it's not for you
someone older would choice it
(the comment is supposed to reinforce you look younger but at the same time, makes you start to doubt you know who you are and what is right for yourself.)
* Patterns evolve rapidly and are identifiable quickly following the honeymoon period/love bombing stage.
when the victim looks back they see the strategic placement of doubt into the victims head started almost immediately
for me, it was the first date, the second day I knew the person.
* Exactly. I also take an attachment/trauma informed approach, because that's what I believe it is. They want to be seen. They want to know their existence matters. They feel like nothing, because needs weren't met. They are wounded. Yalom talks about the group approach as being the only way to really get them to heal. I have found this so helpful, as long as only one narcissist is in the group. Protect him from being called out in a cruel way, but let him be called out. Let him see that he's safe in the boundaries of the group leader, but the BS cannot be thrown around and the focus on themselves will only go so far. Others have problems and want to be seen, too.
* there’s no such thing as an “actual diagnosis.” It’s just a checklist with a bunch of behaviors listed and somebody just says “yeah I think you fit this” or “I don’t think you do.” There’s your super scientific diagnosis.
* I knew a sociopathic woman who faked stability and empathy because of the $100k her mother paid for her to go to therapy. She caused turmoil everywhere she went, but I did not know this at first. She was psychologically sophisticated and knew how to manipulate with words.
She was building a case to extort money from her parents as her father did things that messed her up. She tried to steal MY dad's house through the court system (she was a fake caregiver) so her mother gave her four houses worth $1.5 million to get her to leave everyone alone.
When her father died, there was security at his funeral in case she showed up.
It's been seven years and it's still hard to think about.
* Seen this myself unbelievable how they can learn to manipulate so well but can’t learn to follow through on integrity. Still blows my mind
it was a nightmare. I should be able to write about this experience someday and publish it because it was like being in a horror film. It's people like this who predate on the elderly and children.
Giving therapy to a psychopath just makes them more able to manipulate people for devious ends.
* that's what my husband has done over the years and I've become more manipulated and eventually labeled the narc in the smear campaign. Thank goodness for endless recordings to prove the truth behind his mask. Masks always slip!
* I'm not a therapist but this is a wonderful course for explaining how to deal with narcissism in every day life.
Step 1: Don't
- Tricky if it’s a family member!
* don't worry, I'm way beyond trying to change them! I'm just trying to understand what's going on for them. Neither live with me but they cause havoc in our family. One is coming to stay for 6 weeks while my husband's away so this is for me! The family member will be in their own suite so I am working on maintaining healthy boundaries.
* I'm wondering if it's a bi-product of societal conditioning within our current generation...not to say they didn't exist outside of this generation.... but with the break down of the nuclear family system... they seem more prevalent than ever!
* we need it because they are everywhere and a lot more common than ppl like to think.
* Unfortunately narcissistic patients are very sensitive to embracing their behaviors and opinions about themselves. It feels discouraging at the slow progress. But it’s possible with patience and dedication.
* respectfully, this is not the case for malignant narcissists , bordering on psychotic…..it just isn’t. Therapists need to consider taking the same course as victims. Block phone calls and emails. Don’t walk, run.
*extremely rare, typically not worth the trouble. Usually they become grifters.
* With patience and dedication anyone who wants to heal, can.
* yep, exactly that. Some it educates for the better and actually helps them, the others, teaches them how to evade getting found out again. It's a risk
* true! I’ve seen it over and over again . The most difficult of personalities.
* The people who need therapy are usually the ones who have been harmed in a close relationship with a narcissistic individual.
* I can’t even imagine having a profession where you have to deal with these people all the time. You counselors must have some upgraded steel grit.
* In my experience, the narcissist is only half the problem. The people that cover for and support the narcissist are the other half -- at least.
* Start with the therapists themselves. And the MDs.
* therapy and medicine have an in-built power imbalance. Some try to reduce the inequality as far as possible (never completely possible in that dynamic), some relish the role of ‘expert’ a little too much… We all have egos. Unfortunately the sense of power one can have if not careful in those fields often attracts those who will misuse it, consciously or unconsciously, to varying degrees along that spectrum.(Disclosure: I am a therapist working with health, a therapy client and a patient!)
* Monetizing Narcissism what a concept…
* Those of us impacted by narcissistic people in our lives can change our behaviors so we don't enable their dysfunction. We have power we can exercise that can effectively decrease the negative influence that narcissists put into the world.
* I would like to know more how to deal with one of the serious side effects of these attacks….anxiety. Sometimes the victim of narcissism wants to heal, but feels overwhelmed, incapable. It’s not a choice to experience anxiety.
NICABM
when you purchase a course from us you are given online access forever and can begin the course whenever you'd like. Our courses are geared towards mental health and healthcare practitioners, but people from all walks of life have been able to benefit from them. Plus, we have a 30-day money back guarantee if you decide the course isn't for you.
I hope this helps!
* The NICABM courses are invaluable & never stop learning. I’ve learnt so much to help my understanding. My share was around my concerns for how practices are applied and how vital it is for us as practitioners to stay connected to supervision groups. I have a number of psychologists & specialists that I refer my clients onto as we bump into arenas that are not my expertise.
* no health professional, regardless of training or experience, should be free of being questioned. A good one will welcome it and be fully transparent. In addition, the most important source of feedback is our clients, or in this case, our target audience, not other "top professionals". As a psych of many years experience, i welcome and take on board all comments, criticisms and information, to help continually build my skills and provide a service that my client base actually find helpful.
* I am a manual therapist specializing in visceral and neural manual therapy of the Vagus nerve complex, and I have clients with complex trauma regularly being traumatized by Somatic Experiencing done by other therapists that should never be practicing this work.
It’s not ethical to traumatize your clients and develop trauma bonds with them as part of “healing” process. And it’s not necessary. Somatic Experiencing should not be applied with most people that it is used with for treatment of trauma history.
It’s probably only ethical and useful in a very few number of cases.. and should be used as a triage.. we as therapists should not be actively and purposefully triggering and traumatizing people in sessions.
A lot of techniques get taught to whoever has the money to pay for them, then those people use them with clients when they should not be using them.
I teach manual therapy to align the nervous system to shift away from the trauma response and start a path of healing… without more trauma.
* my experience with nearly every one I have treated and talked to not in my clinic that has had an SE session has described it as retraumatizing, so maybe you are the exception to the rule, but people are certainly not applying the somatic work correctly then, and that is a problem. I’ve not heard from one person that says it was actually helpful after they have stepped back from the trauma bond that it creates with the therapist. This is just my experience with interviewing colleagues, friends, and clients that have had the work. My philosophy is that people don’t need to relive any part of their trauma. The body can let the “score” go, with proper physical and energetic release and alignment. Just as a body can “keep the score” through a mechanism beyond consciousness, it can also let it go. No talking or retraumatization is necessary.
If you are interested in learning how, and the theories and science behind it, check out the link I posted.
* Unfortunately SE training is open to pretty much everyone so there are people without any education or license using SE. Also, if you're doing SE correctly, it wouldn't retraumatize because SE is all about titration and safety. Sometimes, I even say inevitably, you will come up against someone's window of tolerance and you may not know where the line is until you've crossed it. But, hopefully, a licensed therapist has been working that client prior to any trauma therapy, helping them build a toolkit of containment strategies for this very reason. trauma therapy is challenging. You will be exposed, however titrated, to the very things that traumatized you in the first place. I am a licensed clinical social worker who specialized in treating trauma. I have also been a patient in trauma therapy many times over. It's tough work, but with a skilled therapist it's amazing. EMDR, SE, IFS - these therapies have been life savers. I completely disagree with you that trauma can be completely "let go" first of all, and second of all I do not believe that it can be released by body work alone. I believe body work can be really helpful and release stuff. But it's not the be all and end all. That doesn't exist. If you understand complex trauma you would know people have deeply held core wounding narratives that cannot simply be massaged away. They have significant challenges with regulating their emotions, and often have significantly disrupted relationships because trust has been destroyed and they have experienced profound betrayal. These things cannot simply be resolved my manual therapy. I think you have serious blinders here and are biased. And honestly, unless you studied and are licensed in psychology, social work, counseling or marriage and family therapy, and then trained in other modalities to treat trauma, you have a very limited frame of reference to even discuss the treatment of trauma.
* If it was a blanket statement that I originally intended to include “all” mental health professionals in (which I never stated once that such a thing applied to all mental health professionals) perhaps your remark would be useful to emphasize “not all professionals”; I actually agree with you so why bring this up again?
Coaches, I did not imply, stated or by mind reading, that they are more likely to be trauma informed; only that I wouldn’t criticize someone for furthering their own personal education of what it means to be trauma informed *within their scope to know to whom they might redirect their clients to those who might help them better.
Professionals do not get the gilded “privilege” of being a gatekeeper to guiding people in need to their next steps. Any individual (coach, minister, volunteer, friend, etc) can help guide others to resources. No one need be limited to give such help. I’ve personally recommended friends get diagnosed for further treatment for cptsd and/or ptsd. Medical gaslighting is a common occurrence in the medical field. You can best believe I’m going to encourage ppl who are showing signs of cptsd or ptsd to seek help and not withhold such direction/resources if they request additional help or advice?
I’ve been seeing mental health professionals since middle school. I’m 41… I can count double digits for me personally for any type of mental health professional with which I have *not personally received trauma informed care. This is just me. Double digits. “Trauma informed” has evolved to mean different things even in the past 3-5 years. I’m grateful for the evolution for which Nicabm has shown commitment toward developing the next generation of supercharged advocates, no matter how many hours of Accreditation or licenses etc they have.
It’s much needed in the field. I’ve heard this by many patients in the chronic illness communities and I’ve experienced it on the receiving end personally. I’m not a fan of perfection but striving toward excellence in any pursuit.
Pathologizing is, in fact, a bigger problem than you are currently seeing from your credentialed perspective.
See the receiving side and you will hear a different story. I am in the trenches with many with chronic conditions.
I have changed many lives over my past 15 years’ experiences as a volunteer for one of the largest online health communities in the world for just *one of the conditions that I have.
I appreciate your credentials and they are noted. Your experiences will continue to evolve. And I’m giving you a free, valuable and unique perspective from having been in the trenches with 100k strong members with Hashimoto’s for almost 15 years. I will continue to advocate for underprivileged and undeserved communities to continue to put patients first and direct them to best possible resources, as I have done for free for years.
I have easily put in over 2,000 hours myself as a volunteer myself over the years for the express purpose of improving quality of life.
The importance of trauma informed and properly educated professionals is not lost on me. It most certainly is not and i reject any implications to that effect that I am not in touch with the patient side of this problem, personally or otherwise.
* In reply to “some patients are too complicated for life coaches”
That’s why you see multiple practitioners for however many conditions that you have.
I’m never ever going to criticize a coach for going above and beyond to point their clients to best possible resources and practitioners based on their needs in the moment.
I referenced that I myself received trained “peer support”
Peers understand a lot more than many would even realize. They point to resources just like life coaches do. Trauma informed professionals of all kinds simply do a better job at their jobs as trauma informed professionals on an “off day” and give supports better than seeing a pathologizing professional on their “best” day.
* you do know that Bessel Van Der Kolk is THE leading trauma expert in the world yeah?
You can't get much more experienced or expert than that
* I do - his work has hugely impacted my life & just reread Body keeps the Score for 3rd time
* I think this is why we go to 7+ years of school and work under years of direct supervision……4 years of undergrad, 1-3 years of volunteering, 3 years of grad schoo, 2-3 years of direct weekly supervision.
Coaching is !#@!
* I definitely agree. Do not operate out of your areas of certification and expertise. People can cause harm to other thru ignorance, even tho they had good intentions… a mind is a delicate thing to mess with
* messing with the mind is exactly what narcissists do to their victims...no certification required at all there!
* I think this is the difference between being a coach and clinician. Clinicians have ethical training and clinical training to work with this and every population with respect to every person’s human dignity however challenging the therapeutic work is and where every person is more human than any label or heterogenous population however homogenous it might seem. I agree supervision is critical for any therapist. I think where your comment is applicable is if folks who are not therapists are signing up for this course. I do think for topics like this is should be limited to licensed/certified therapists.
There’s some great research on early therapeutic interventions in the juvenile justice system with adolescents exhibiting sociopathic traits (before their of age to diagnose) usually with oppositional defiant disorder diagnoses resulting in significant outcomes like profoundly lower recidivism and in one study a zero murder rate following release. That’s is a more extreme setting with kids exhibiting these traits, acting out criminally abs leading to incarceration suggesting a lot of promise for those with traits somewhere on the anti social scale who aren’t acting out criminally. As long as there is a lanaguage of demonization we get in the way of humane treatment and research.
We have an ethical obligation to get beyond this language of implicitly or explicitly vilifying any population as some sort of dark threat while also balancing that without having any naïveté about the risks of working with some individuals with certain diagnoses that pose some risks to the clinician. Hopefully this course has mindful discussions about these challenges in ways that do not demonize clients, which ironically lacks the very empathy as well that certain populations are demonized for having limited quantities of or ability to access. One thing that has given me hope for people with this and other more challenging diagnoses is brain scanning of individuals with high sociopathic checklist scores have shown they can can access empathy centers if they are instructed to try to although those centers don’t light up in response to certain exposures like those without these scores do. That to me suggests the possibility to cultivate interventions that help rewire those parts of brains. The key is to begin with not vilifying a population that gets in the way of research and humane care for all with human dignity.
We all also need narcissistic traits to function with healthy self concept, which is why there are positive and negative narcissistic and psychopathic traits. Acknowledging that is one way to move beyond a language of exclusively demonization or any demonization. We can present the negative traits as toxic patterns that no longer serve the individual and that were often coping mechanism developed by a resilient child to transcend what no child should face - whether biologically, environmentally or genetically.
Furthermore, we have been humbled into realizing how wrong our prognoses are. The fact that borderline personality was once considered challenging to treat and in some ways resistant to treatment but that now has been shown quite responsive to dialectical behavioral therapy is an example of how treatment failure is not the patients fault when there are not successful therapeutic interventions available - it is the medical fields lack of a treatment. It’s also interesting to me dialectical behavioral therapy is derivative of Zen Buddhism, which I think is another humbling commentary on the limitations of mainstream science and it’s tendency toward dehumanizing labels and negative beliefs about outcomes that set the stage for poor outcomes.
* therapists do focus on goals and moving forward. That is a common misconception most coaches seem to have. Trauma, mental health issues, poverty, abuse, and a ton of other problems can make it hard to reach goals or most people would have already done it. That's why licensed therapists can help by first diagnosing the issue and then coming up with a plan to heal trauma and find resources so that the person can reach their preferred future. There is so much that goes into it and it's frightening that "coaches" are dabbling in helping with things that take therapists at least 6 years of college, 1,000 hours of unpaid internship, two years of employed supervision time and passing two state licensing exams to be able to help with. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't portraying themselves as qualified to help with personally disorders and mental health issues.
* I absolutely understand your point and it is scary how many people call themselves a coach these days. I’ve thought about this a lot because I’m actually a trauma coach with a psychology background. So just to throw some points out there to debate the other side, some things are actually limiting in the therapy world. Dealing with insurance and over focus on diagnosis (at least in a Eurocentric lens). And also, the academic world (which again is so important!) doesn’t really make room for life experience. I’ve done extensive trauma training and although it’s been integral in how I work, my “school of life” and spiritual experiences are the core of what I draw from. I think that’s why a lot of people are drawn to see a coach. I think there’s room for both. But I definitely agree how scary it is when people try to help others without proper training.
* wow, I didn’t know that narcissist behavior could change ! Maybe there’s hope in the world after all !
I'm sorry. I don't want to break down their defenses. I just don't want to have anything to do with narcissists. I've tried everything for decades and nothing worked and because of that my days of struggling with all of their symptoms and excuses has finally ended.
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