So are narcissists vengeful, and do they get satisfaction from being that way?
The most simplistic answer is Yes, narcissists can get satisfaction from revenge from a Google AI article I found (and taken from a number of psychology articles).
The gist of the discussion in that article (or answer) is that narcissists can't handle differences they have with other people, and look at those differences as an attack. They are unable to feel good if there are disagreements or differences of opinion with another person, especially if they are unable to sway or control the opinions, thoughts or experiences of others. They can't accept others as separate human beings who are not out to serve the narcissist and what they want at all times, or out to get their self esteem stroked by the narcissist (they are independent thinkers, in other words, and accept that there will be different opinions and thought processes from one person to the next). Most people except the most brainwashed among us are not out to accept the narcissist's way of thinking and opinions on all matters as our own.
Narcissists feel they are losing control of others (and power, control and domination is what is most important to them in all relationships), and that it is an afront to their arrogance and delusions of superiority.
In order to reject the opinions, thought processes, and experiences of others, they reason they have to reject the person. Malignant narcissists go further than that and feel they have to punish the person, and this is where vindictive narcissism comes in.
Narcissists cannot handle this common and normal way of relating (i.e. disagreeing, having different opinions, having ambitions separate from pleasing them, having different thought processes, having different experiences than a narcissist thinks they are having, and they see all of it as a personal attack on them and their delusional superiority and respond in a vindictive, vengeful manner).
This is a problem for the rest of us, obviously.
Better articles on vindictive narcissism are these two articles:
Vindictive Narcissists: 10 Signs & How to Handle One - by Hailey Shafir, LCMHCS, LPCS, LCAS, CCS and medically reviewed by Rajy Abulhosn, MD for Choosing Therapy
What is Vindictive Narcissism? - by Simone Marie and Sandra Silva, and medically reviewed by Karin Gepp, PsyD
The articles say the same things, except in a more lengthy way, and also tell you how to deal with vindictive narcissism (protect yourself, find a way to back out of the relationship, put up strong boundaries).
Since narcissists have trouble regulating their emotions, and vindictiveness is the first thing they feel, and what they want to act on, they go into it headlong, and at first it is impulsively driven. This is why they are more likely to be dangerous just before you leave the relationship with them, or just after, or when you are resisting their punishments or power and control agendas. Revenge can quickly take over their mental and emotional state and even their entire life in some cases, where they become absolutely obsessed until and unless their plans of certain punishments become a reality.
Even if the other person caves or apologizes for upsetting the narcissist, the narcissist's lack of empathy and suspicious nature will mean that they will not necessarily accept the different qualities others have from them, and can find it impossible to forgive the other person, whereby the vindictiveness permanently remains and never quite satisfies the narcissist. In these cases, revenge becomes on-going.
Some things I have come across via the internet are survivors of child abuse who left their family of origin to get married. They were part of a cult-like narcissistic family system where they were either deemed "for" the family in the way of being always present and always submissive to what their parents wanted in terms of providing for the family and being present in all family affairs, or "totally against" the family if they sought their own way of life in another part of the country, or overseas, or via getting married to start their own family.
Sometimes things happen, like their spouse dies, or there is a divorce. The family invites the member back with open, seemingly loving arms, and then the family destroys all property, including pictures and memorabilia of their time away from the family without the permission of that returned family member. It is done to wipe out their past. In some cases that caused that member to leave again (the more common outcome), or conversely to feel trapped with nowhere to go. Some of the trapped members had suicidal thoughts.
Many of these families believe that hurting a member in this way will teach that member never to leave again and to go along with constant commands and demands of the authoritarians in the family, but it simply does not work and here is why. This has some bearing on whether narcissists, over the long term, get satisfaction out of revenge, or if it is just another "it's never enough" thought process (a common stuck obsession about all kinds of issues around domination and control agendas that narcissists are famous for, and feeling they don't get enough of).
Another situation comes from a domestic violence group I belong to where seeing young women with bloody lips, black and blue eyes, and their faces smashed up while they are sitting in a hospital bed is a somewhat common occurrence. In a lot of these cases, these women never saw this kind of violence coming, even though they knew they were being watched constantly, controlled to the point of the ridiculous, and emotionally abused. They were trying to figure out how to deal with the rages and emotional abuse of their men in our group, ways to calm the situations they were in, and did not think, in their wildest dreams, that they would be hit. Some of them had warning signs like their possessions being destroyed, or the man was putting his fist through a wall, or stalking, but almost all of them did not think that would ever translate into violence against them.
The thing is, abuse escalates, and with enough emotional abuse, it can tip over into physical abuse (I find this the case particularly if a woman has PTSD and is disassociating: going blank, freezing, an involuntary response). It's unfortunate that it escalates so fast after the man finds that emotional abuse isn't hurtful, threatening or scary enough.
Even subtle signs like being pushed or led in a demanding, controlling manner often precludes getting hit.
Anyway, many of these stories entail a man beating his woman as a way to get her to submit to what he wants. In some of these instances what he wants is a total fantasy, such as his woman confessing to an affair she has not had, or to an attraction to a man she barely noticed, or does not know. She is being beaten for being disloyal when she hasn't been disloyal. What a lot of these men don't understand is that it is virtually impossible to be disloyal when these women are isolated in such extreme ways, and when their victim is spending most of her time trying to calm his rages and reassure him, and when he attempts to make his micro-managements of her the center of her attention all of the time.
Hitting her is supposed to keep her from being disloyal, but most often it creates a situation where she wants to get away, and yes, be disloyal even if just to speak out about what has been done to her, or to live without him in her life. Hospital workers will also be helping her have that agenda and teaching her about how abuse escalates - and this includes "no matter how she acts, and no matter which of her soothing techniques she decides is most effective." None of them are effective when it comes to physical abuse.
One reason narcissistic jealous and suspicious boyfriends, lovers, and husbands suspect their women of cheating is often because of projection. Most narcissists cheat (around 75 percent of them). And if they aren't cheating, they usually have some other clandestine activity they are pursuing whether it is getting drugs for a drug addiction, or a gambling addiction, or a porn addiction, or a peep show addiction, or other kind of activity where secrets are kept.
The suspicions can also be a result of growing up in an environment of people who were hostile and exploitative. They might have been spared that treatment themselves, but they saw it being done to others. Lack of loyalty is triggering to them as many of them take it to mean hostility and exploitation, producing rage as the outlet, and for narcissists with malignant characteristics, violence. They tell themselves they will not be abandoned, or exploited, or treated as though their voice doesn't have any bearing, even when they've adopted all of those qualities themselves. They get around to believing that threats and being menacing is the only way to prevent it happening to them.
They conduct themselves in relationships as though everything is a threat to them and their fragile egos.
But who wants to be around someone who is hurting you all of the time anyway, even if they are using it as an insurance policy against being fooled, cheated on, and exploited, and who is a danger to your life? And domestic violence is always dangerous to your life - violence has a way of getting out of control, particularly if the other person is trying to protect themselves from blows - more likely than not as the body does what it does to protect itself; it is why when you fall your arms go out first, automatically, to cushion the fall and to keep your face and head protected.
The same goes to protecting your face and head from being hit: your arms and hands will automatically act as a shield to protect you from the blows.
Invariably most of these men were always begging their woman to come back after she was released from the hospital. If she refused, the stalking alternated between "sick love puppy who cannot live without her" to threatening, destructive and sometimes violent, or criminal, reactions, in other words, the perpetrators had a very pronounced Jekyll/Hyde manifestation (called "splitting" - and in extreme ways).
For those women who go back, they find that their loyalty is deemed to never be enough by their man. These women find themselves constantly insulted (where they are told they never do enough for the man, they aren't pretty enough, they aren't smart enough, they aren't sane enough, they are nasty and not nice, that they are worthless and useless, and so on). As I said, "never-enough-ness" is a dominant narcissistic trait, as are fantasies about what you are feeling, thinking and experiencing. And to make matters even more scary, they tend to think they can read other people's minds (where arrogance and feeling they are superior to everyone else comes into play, another delusion you have to deal with as they can be insistent that you are feeling and thinking things you are not feeling and thinking).
There is also always a tone of disrespect too, as though you are too unable to make autonomous decisions, or too disabled to do anything or say anything other than to follow their orders. You are required to either parentify them, or infantilize them (and you never know which one they want at any given time, which can bring on more violence: "Who do you take me to be? A child that constantly needs to be reassured!?" and "Who do you take me to be? Your parent who has to tell you what to do all of the time?!" - it's positively crazy-making, but so common).
It is where co-dependency and trauma bonding start and never end as long as you stay in a relationship with a narcissist.
And by the way, if domestic violence is going on where one partner is initiating hitting his (or her) other partner, it's usually a sign of malignant narcissism. In child abuse cases where there is physical abuse and harm, as well as punishments that are essentially about neglect and rejection of a child, these cases are perpetrated by malignant narcissists too. Malignant narcissists generally never get better, and often get so much worse, and because of the antisocial personality disorder mixed in with the narcissism, they are dangerous enough to seek protection and boundaries from, or get away from altogether (where going to a domestic abuse center can help you plan an un-violent escape).
You also cannot talk a malignant narcissist out of their delusionary judgements about what you really feel and think, and who you are. They are too suspicious and adamant that they know how to read your mind, and the reading is always going to entail how you are their enemy, even if it is just one time you did not agree with them, or do what they wanted. They simply can't trust you again, and they will want to retaliate against you at some time or other, whether a lot or a little. How they retaliate is often dependent on how enraged they are. Which is why you have to be careful of the hoover (the hoover is about sweet-talking you back into the relationship with them).
Another way to tell if you are dealing with a malignant narcissist where you are trying to put up boundaries, or separate from them, they won't just be running smear campaigns, which all narcissists do. They will also be indulging in some kind of crime too, or at the very least breaking or giving away property that is yours, or things you have given them.
If they have any covert narcissistic qualities, they will be trying to convince everyone they know that they are the victim. They can even say they were a victim of infidelity even when they dreamed it up - very common and very nauseating.
I think it should be obvious why you can't really have any kind of meaningful relationship or discourse with a malignant narcissist. It will always be threatening, and always be about the narcissist hurting you, trying to get more submission out of you, and getting off on your pain. It is also very likely that they are fooling other people into believing their fake victim stories and getting duper's delight from them.
As the article from the link suggests, duper's delight actually has an addictive quality to it, and the person delighting in duping others most often ends up lying just about anything and everything. It tends to create a full time liar or exaggerator of the truth, and who can be really pleased, at peace with themselves, and truly happy being a full time liar? The feelings of alienation, being alone, and trying not to get caught, would be negatives most people aren't willing to gamble on in their own relationships. It's permanently isolating and extremely shameful.
In contrast, it's nothing like the fulfillment empaths have living in the truth and sharing their inner-most thoughts and feelings with one another, and real trust, not the fake kind of trust narcissists try to promote about themselves.
Given the choice between lying to others all of the time and getting duper's delight from fooling others, versus experiencing a really trusting relationship with a lot of sharing, full time trust, and a lot of co-operation, which would you prefer?
And it is a preference. Malignant narcissists prefer duper's delight because most of them trust no one. It's why the covert malignant narcissists who are most likely to go after duper's delight in their relationships, never share much of anything in their relationships. It says so much about them and how untrustworthy they are themselves, and it certainly says a lot about their total lack of ethics.
I think most of us can see that they miss out on a lot of meaning, life, truth, fulfillment and even those feelings of "having enough" by going down that road.
And once the "mask falls" and they get caught with so many lies, and getting off on the pain of others, it's more than a little disgusting. All of the shame they've been running away from in their relationships starts up again, and they are even faced with self-shame. Most people who uncover an ugly truth like duper's delight will want no part in any kind of real relationship with the narcissist again.
So, none of this ends up in a good place, whether you are the narcissist, or the victim, although victims are better equipped at finding good relationships than narcissists will ever experience.
VINDICTIVENESS, AND RETALIATIONS?
Like duper's delight, most people will be disgusted by it, will find it to be evil.
It gets more people running away from them than towards them, certainly. No one really likes being in relationships where the other person doesn't have any empathy, or ethics, gets off on lying, gets off on plans of retaliations and crimes that show their selfishness in bright details, entitlements, lies, hoovers, tricking others, and boorishly tries to take advantage of others.
It puts most of us on edge because it's a threat to our well-being.
It's been said many times that relationships with narcissists traumatize most of us. If two narcissists are in a relationship together, the narcissist that is closer to the malignant brand of narcissism or psychopathy can traumatize the narcissist with less psychopathy. So one way or another, there is trauma to go around.
I was watching Richard Grannon's channel once, and he said he had clients that were lamenting: "The narcissist always comes out on top!" And Richard said he never knew of a single narcissist who came out on top. They eventually all become disappointed wrecks of human beings.
We only need to turn to well known malignant narcissists to see how they fared. Hitler ended up poisoning himself as troops surrounded his bunker. Mussolini was executed. Napoleon was banished. King Henry the Eighth died at the age of 55 and any number of his ailments could have caused his demise from an infected leg wound that never healed and possibly was septic (it was infected for eleven years), to gout and possibly a pulmonary embolism. His body was severely obese to the point where he could no longer walk, and he left a country in financial crisis.
And how is Putin doing with his invasion plans?
None of these men felt or feel their dreams had been fulfilled by the end of their life, or had a sense of a life well lived.
A lot of it is caused by the "never-enough-ness" grumblings that plague most narcissists. They didn't get enough power and control over people; people weren't submissive enough for them; people weren't loyal enough for them; people weren't nice enough to them (and some of them were even "nasty", something that perpetrators repeatedly call women who disappoint them); they didn't hurt so-and-so enough; they weren't catapulted into positions of power enough, people weren't bright enough to not realize they were geniuses; people weren't trusting of them enough to let them take over; people never praised them enough; people weren't grateful enough for all the things they did do and were too focused on what they didn't do; people couldn't see they were superior to everyone else because they were not self effacing enough; no relationship was good enough for them; their children didn't become anything special enough for them; their spouse didn't make enough money or wasn't generous enough to them; their children and spouses weren't smart or successful enough for them; their lovers never appreciated them enough; their children were never "good enough" children; no one could ever read their mind in a good enough way and certainly not as good as they could read others' minds (this is, of course, a delusion); no one ever saw enough of the brilliant talent they had; and home health care workers never did enough for them when they become old.
All of this leads them to be hyper critical of others, demanding, commanding and never satisfied. They especially try to instill the thought into their children that they are not enough as people. What this really translates into is that children are not pleasing and submissive enough for a narcissist; they aren't endowed with enough narcissistic supply for a narcissist; they aren't making their parenting look good enough for them; their children aren't easy enough not to go ballistic, i.e. go into rages and punishments all of the time; their children aren't praising them enough; their children aren't doing what they are told enough; their children seem more ugly than other children, that they aren't beautiful enough to admire. Children who are too heavily dominated by the narcissistic parent (without their other parent pushing back on their ambition to destroy a child's self esteem) can carry the burden that they are not enough their whole entire lives.
They can especially get the sense that they don't work hard enough, where one of the traits of being a scapegoat is that they become work-a-holics.
Dr. Ramani Durvasula and Jerry Wise often talk at length in their writings and videos about how narcissists crush their children's self esteem, and that only being a puppet with no boundaries is the only way they will ever receive affection, or be seen, or respected by their narcissistic parent ... until the next round of devaluation and narcissistic exaggerated disappointments which turn into shaming the child (and for malignant narcissists violence or punishments meant to hurt). The child takes in that they are "not enough" and the destruction to his self esteem, his budding personality, his ambitions and accomplishments (and if his parent is violent towards him, physical destruction too).
If an adult child shows that they are internally endowed with self esteem which can come from being away from the narcissist for a length of time, or pursuing an interest or education away from the family system, the narcissist can double down on terrorizing. No narcissist can deal with, or stand, any child of theirs with self esteem, including enough intelligence to know why their parent is trying to wreck their self esteem.
All of it creates endless amounts of emotional dysregulation and rage in the parent, and for malignant narcissists, revenge and retaliation too.
And the reason why narcissists are rarely satisfied with their own children is because relationship satisfaction does not come from trying to get power, control and domination over others, and traumatizing them. Which begs the question: Maybe they are not enlightened enough to realize that?
I doubt that most narcissists are even aware that most people who have any significant relationship with them experience trauma. If they knew the people in their lives experienced enough trauma, maybe they would stop, but they don't.
I think most people know these days that trauma responses aren't healthy. The fawn, fight, freeze, flee trauma responses aren't healthy for the people who are experiencing them. If these trauma responses are further stuffed ("I'm going to pretend these situations never happened, and I'm going to live my life as though this and that never hurt me"), it's likely to be stored in the body and manifest as disease. It's been well documented that spousal abuse and particularly child abuse, and having a parent or spouse with Narcissistic Personality Disorder often means a compromised or clipped longevity.
Trauma causes stress - lots of it, and you only have to look to people who go through a car accident or rape to know how long lasting the effects are. Stress causes disease. And there is also evidence that has surfaced that when narcissists try to make situations and people stressed, they let go of their own stress while giving it to someone else.
In my readings and research, I came across this class offering: How to Identify and Address the Survival Responses That Perpetuate Suffering and Block Therapy for NICABM (National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine)
Develop a more targeted and nuanced approach to treating trauma
For years, clients have presented with defensive adaptations to trauma that don’t fit within the fight-flight-freeze model you learned in grad school.
And without the tools to identify and address these (often subtle) adaptations, many clients were left stuck, stagnant, and suffering.
But recently, the top minds in our field have developed strategies to help us take a more targeted and nuanced approach with these “emerging” trauma responses . . .
. . . and become more effective in our ability to help clients overcome unresolved trauma.
Those other trauma responses are:
* Attach/Cry for Help
* Collapse and Submit
* Please and Appease
All of these trauma responses are either going to mean dissociation, separation from the narcissist emotionally, or psychologically, or physically, and possibly through something I thought up, a Lie and Appease response (which is really just another version of the Please and Appease trauma response, but with added lies to keep the narcissist pleased even if internally you are not agreeing with everything they want, everything they demand, and everything they say - in other words you are pretending to go along until you can find a way to escape obligation).
The reason why it would be traumatic is because lying brings with it some fear of being caught, and a lot of fear can cause anxiety, but most of all, stress.
Again, nothing is going to free you of stress in a relationship with a narcissist.
Most of us bend towards healthy relationships, empathetic people, ethical people, people we can trust, people who are ultra-mature, and narcissists do not provide any of this. Again, if they aren't ripping you apart to your face (the general way they do this), then they are ripping you apart behind your back. It's going to be one or the other.
They can't be pleased and most of them make that known to you whether in the many criticisms and disrespectful comments they dole out, or subtly by not listening to what you have to say, being distracted when you talk, or looking bothered by your presence. It's not a happy place to be, and even for a lot of us, it's not a good enough relationship because we can't really say we trust them, or that we are happy with their level of empathy, or that we feel healthy, alive, appreciated, fulfilled and joyful in their presence and in relating to them. The never-enough-ness begins to mirror theirs and we waste years of our lives waiting for trustworthiness that doesn't exist in them, empathy that does not exist in them, being heard in an understanding "got it" kind of way that does not exist in them, appreciation for who we are which does not exist in them, feeling and being healthy in the relationship which does not exist because on-going trauma is not a space where good health can preside.
Finding others who can match our level of empathy and respect can get rid of the never-enough-ness in us.
It won't for the narcissist (because finding others who match their empathy, and respect means relating to another never-enough-ness highly critical narcissist, and the whole "match" will seem like a whole lot of misunderstandings, arguments, duo rages, and no one willing to submit).
Yes, people with narcissistic personality traits often feel like there is never enough - Google AI
I'm Never Enough for the Narcissist! - by Emily Mayfield for Mindset Therapy
7 Ways Narcissists Make You Feel Inferior - by Darius Cikanavicius for Psych Central
A vindictive narcissist is someone with narcissistic traits or NPD who is often cruel, callous, and mean towards others - Google AI
How Do You Say Goodbye to an Abusive Family Member? - by Frøydis Fossli Moe for The New York Times
Why Do Some People With Narcissistic Personality Act in Vindictive Ways? - by Simone Marie and Sandra Silva, and medically reviewed by Karin Gepp, PsyD for Psych Central
10 Signs of Vindictive Narcissism: Know When to Act - by Judge Anthony for the Judge Anthony website
Hidden Narcissist (Sometimes, the narcissist in your life is pretty well-hidden) - by Peg Streep and reviewed by Matt Huston for Psychology Today
What Drives The Vindictive Narcissist? - video by psychologist, Les Carter, for You Tube
How do you PROTECT yourself from the narcissists VINDICTIVENESS? - by Dr. Ramani Durvasula for You Tube
What Revenge Tactics You Can Expect from a Narcissist - by the editorial staff of Marriage.com and reviewed by Maggie Martinez, LCSW
Will a Narcissist Try to Get Revenge? - by Elijah Akin for Unfilteredd
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