And hopefully you will see this: that if a mother wants to keep hurting her daughter, then her own behavior has to be suspect (unless the daughter is committing crimes). But in that case a mother would be contacting police and legal services for protection, not trying to keep hurting her daughter.
INTRODUCTION
Note: This is actually a deep subject with a lot of psychological research into human behavior by professionals in the psychology field, and for this particular topic, I highly recommend reading the articles in the "further reading section" below to understand the full scope of the problem and issues. I could not begin to cover them all in this particular post other than talking about the most common tactics that narcissists and sociopaths use, and the sadism behind those tactics, and why it matters in terms of continuing a relationship with them. Some other posts I have written that are related to this subject are Hurting or Punishing Others to Teach Them a Lesson - Does It Work? and The Most Common Things Abusive Parents Say to Their Children and Why It Matters - Survivors of Child Abuse Weigh In
First are definitions:
* Sadism (from Collins Dictionary): "Sadism is a type of behavior in which a person obtains pleasure from hurting other people and making them suffer physically or mentally."
* Cruelty (from Wikipedia): "Cruelty is the pleasure in inflicting suffering or inaction towards another's suffering when a clear remedy is readily available.[1] Sadism can also be related to this form of action or concept."
* Schadenfreude (from Wikipedia): "(/ˈʃɑːdənfrɔɪdə/; German: [ˈʃaːdn̩ˌfʁɔʏ̯də] (listen); lit. 'harm-joy') is the experience of pleasure, joy, or self-satisfaction that comes from learning of or witnessing the troubles, failures, or humiliation of another. It is a borrowed word from German, with no direct translation, that originated in the 18th century."
* related words to the above 3 words: spite, revenge, abuse, Katagelasticism, brutality, inhumanity, barbarism, malice, torture, viciousness, ruthlessness, wickedness, insensitivity, bestiality, unkindness, cold-hearted
Sadists generally target people they view as weak: children, vulnerable, disabled, hobbled, ill, traumatized, disenfranchised over sex, race, creed, sexual orientation, prejudiced against, or enduring some manner of scapegoating.
Narcissists who practice sadism either do it for self serving purposes or because they like the reactions they get from causing other people pain. Like so many other forms of abuse, sadism counts as an aggressive act, whether that is an aggression into someone else's life, an aggression into or against someone else's body, an aggression into or against someone else's happiness, well-being or self-esteem, or an aggression into or against someone else's psychological health, or an aggression into, or against the unwelcome taking of a victim's finances, home, person, loved ones or possessions. Sadism and aggression add up to causing another person pain or loss, and they usually get some sort of enjoyment out of it.
Sadism is typically a feature in certain personality disorders, namely Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder. More on these personality disorders later in the post.
From all of my reading and research, the most sadistic among human beings are usually child sexual abuse rapists and offenders. This would make sense. Children are not physiologically or emotionally ready for adult mating, and so any sexual acts will hurt them. Most children who have been victims of this crime experience PTSD, and sometimes life-long PTSD (C-PTSD), which hurts them further.
Of those child sex offenders, there is a sub-group of offenders who do more than just committing a sexual abuse crime against a child to get sadistic satisfaction and gratification. It often includes physical abuse of the child, false imprisonment, threats that they will never see their parents or family again, which also causes emotional stress and pain, and a host of other sadistic acts. Sometimes these offenders know their victims, and sometimes they do not.
Among those who don't, the offenders are a lot more likely to murder, and most, but not all, have elaborate plans of which child they will hunt down, and have luring strategies and capturing strategies planned out way in advance. They also have plans of how they will "let their victims go" or dispose of their bodies, and have plans as to how they will evade law enforcement. These offenders usually start at age 16, becoming more cunning and sophisticated in their planning as they grow older. They also tend to get more and more sadistic as they grow older too. The sadism becomes an addiction (when narcissists can't get positive narcissistic supply, they resort to getting negative attention, i.e. sadistic narcissistic supply).
Most of the latter criminals (who commit not only sexual crimes against their victims, but also commit other kinds of crimes too against their victims), will also commit all kinds of other crimes in other situations. So it is a societal problem that will not only effect child victims and their families, but also a host of other kinds of people with different kinds of relationships or encounters with the perpetrator.
Most of these perpetrators certainly have significant markers of Narcissistic Personality Disorder with Antisocial Personality Disorder, but also significant obvious additions like Machiavellianism and sadism (the Dark Tetrad), and sometimes with marked conspiratorial thinking. These humans are probably the most dangerous among us.
The Dark Tetrad personality type can also mean Dark Empaths (sadists who appear to be overly empathetic, self sacrificing, caregivers of children, sweet, charming and kind), but who use it mainly to acquire victims.
For the purposes of this post, I will not be talking about these kinds of sadists (though I have included articles below in the "further reading section" which touch on this subject), but how sadism manifests in non-triad and non-tetrad Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and to some degree in Antisocial Personality Disorder in the way of Malignant Narcissism. Which is to say that sadism is still a facet of the most common forms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and especially Malignant Narcissism, but not to this degree. In Malignant Narcissism, criminal thought and behaviors are common, but again, not usually to the degree that they torture, rape and dispose of children.
As I have mentioned in so many other posts, Narcissistic Personality Disorder usually manifests during a person's childhood and is the product of a highly traumatic environment. It does not mean the child is the main victim in that environment however, but it is likely that someone is being abused or scapegoated in some way. Also Narcissistic Personality Disorder could not exist without some form of spoiling in the way of preferential treatment of that child (especially over other children) and being told or shown they are better than another child, or children, or person, or people - in other words, there is usually prejudice in that environment as well. It can be about a girl, or girls, or a woman, or women, and often is. That would account for why girls and women are often the targets for the most egregious forms of abuse, including sexual abuse, incest, physical abuse and murder in close personal relationships.
FOR NARCISSISTS AND MALIGNANT NARCISSISTS
According to the Help Guide article, 10 Sadistic Cat-and-Mouse Games Narcissists And Psychopaths Play by Shahida Arabi:
Some narcissistic and psychopathic individuals sadistically enjoy toying with and deliberately causing pain to others. This gives them a grandiose sense of power and control and a smug sense of satisfaction that they have “one-upped” you with their perpetual cat-and-mouse games. Researchers note that sadism is a key feature of malignant narcissism (narcissism with antisocial traits). Interestingly, other studies report that individuals high in narcissistic and psychopathic traits tend to experience positive emotions when they view sad faces. Neuroscience research also indicates that when they view sad faces. Neuroscience research also indicates that when psychopathic individuals imagine others enduring pain, there is increased activation in areas of the brain related to anticipation of reward and decreased activation in areas related to empathy. Psychologists have suggested that this may mean that psychopaths not only lack empathy for the pain of others, but that they also take sadistic pleasure in witnessing or even causing the pain and distress of others.
As a researcher who has corresponded with thousands of people who have been in relationships with psychopathic and narcissistic individuals, I have found that there are certain sadistic patterns of behavior common among narcissists and psychopaths who take pleasure in causing pain to their partners. Here are some red flag behaviors and cat-and-mouse games to watch out for:
... and she lists and explains them. This is her list (without the explanations - for the explanations, read her whole article HERE ... I have also put her article in the "further reading section" below, one of the best articles on how the sadism plays out, "narcissistic style", although there are many more, particularly if they are malignant narcissists).
1. They manufacture chaos by frequently pushing your trigger buttons to exhaust and disorient you so you’re less able to fight back.
2. They retraumatize you using your previous traumas and wounds.
3. They bait and set you up with information to react to – just so they can rage and engage in crazymaking arguments.
4. They coerce you into self-harm, reckless activity or substance use.
5. They use hot-and-cold, push-pull methods to get you addicted to their attention, as they withhold affection after intense periods of love bombing.
7. They chronically provoke jealousy on purpose, only to frame your subsequent boundaries or questions as an invasion of their privacy and depict you as “controlling.”
8. They go out of their way to spoil your joy during the holidays and hinder your enjoyment of achievements.
9. They provoke fear and make covert threats using “dog whistling”.
10. They distort your self-perception by instilling insecurities that never existed.
The cat-and-mouse games add up to a life for their victims of having very little peace, and certainly not peace that you can count on (narcissists break most promises "never to hurt you like that again", and of course, many of them laugh sadistically when they do "hurt you like that again").
Although run-of-the-mill overt grandiose narcissists and covert vulnerable narcissists show sadism, they are not always happy after the fact, especially if it doesn't get them what they want. Many of them realize that sadism breaks their victim's trust in them (because it is a definite "opposition to empathy", not just a "lack of empathy", what most narcissists are known for instead). Psychologists mainly attribute relentless, on-going sadism (including on-going desires or plans to hurt others) to malignant narcissism.
Malignant narcissists are people with a combination of Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder, and it is the latter that makes them quite menacing, frightening, dangerous and cruel.
They tend to be be singularly focused too, which can make things very difficult for their victims. For instance, let us say you have inadvertently criticized them (let us say that you have asked them to stop trying to control you - that you are an adult and don't need to be controlled). They take this as a criticism and as an an affront because malignant narcissists are exceptionally controlling, especially of people they deem to be beneath them in stature. They most often put themselves in the role of boss, teacher, dictator, tyrant and lecturer, whether you like it or not, even if you don't want that kind of relationship - which is quite aggressive and invasive on their part.
Roles mean almost everything to narcissists, and especially to malignant narcissists. Putting someone in "a serving or submissive role" is also aggressive and presumptive. However, they are not happy unless you are in a role and fulfilling the role they designed for you, and even then, they tend to rage about what you are doing wrong in that role, that "you can never do anything right ... What's the matter with you!?" - the typical phrase of the malignant narcissist. The role is so tightly defined in terms of what you must do and not do for them, that in order to keep pleasing them, you are expected to do everything perfectly too, even down to perfect attitudes, perfect expressions, the perfect number of spices in food they want, in perfect clothes and hairstyles that they like, in perfect health, in perfect mind-reading capacities where you can tell what they want and rush to serve them. And I'm not kidding. And if they don't get what they want, they rage like a king, insult, demand that you comply, and sometimes call you "useless".
And of course, you won't ever live up to their expectations if you go down this road, because narcissists are never satisfied with the power they already have over you: they want more, and more, and more, and more. It's an insatiable desire in them which drives them to be abusive when you either cannot fulfill or will not fulfill their demands and commands, or if you make excuses about why you didn't.
It very often drives them to be disloyal to you too. They often collect other people, mostly on the sly, and as an insurance policy in case their relationships break apart (most narcissists experience one or several close personal relationships that break apart). They collect other people who they believe may serve their needs better later on. They collect other potential mates to either use to make their present mate work harder for them, to ruin the self esteem of their present mate, or to use as a get-away from their present mate if their mate won't do what they want or files for divorce, for instance.
Cheating is very, very common for narcissists precisely because they are so entrenched in using the triangulation tactic, and being a perfectionist over how you do things (not over how they do things however, so there is hypocrisy involved). Their triangulation games are just another way to intimidate.
They consider "loyalty" and "willingness to serve" to be the same thing - except when it comes to being loyal to you, of course. They try very hard not to be put into loyalty positions themselves unless there are considerable rewards like stature, money, image or power to be had in their association with you.
They also rage when they are criticized, but malignant narcissists go further than that and punish too. In adult relationships, "punish" means "abuse", and this is especially true in close personal relationships. Children also can get punished for "unwillingness to serve their parent" (it is child abuse via parentification), but for the meantime I will focus on adult personal relationships: spouse, partner, adult siblings, adult parent to adult child, adult family members, and very close adult friends. These relationships should always be lateral, where power is shared equally, where no one is boss, no one is lording something over another person, no one is managing your life and decisions, and if the relationship is not that way, then there is something wrong. Consider that what might be wrong is that you are dealing with a narcissist, sociopath or psychopath, especially if there are punishments and hurtful consequences involved in not letting them have domination and control over you, especially if there is an expectation of a role (especially a servant/master relationship), especially if they are acting authoritarian, especially if they are gaslighting (calling you crazy if you are not submissive), if they rage when criticized, where your needs and feelings are barely considered, where they display a lack of empathy for you, and there is hypocrisy involved in their commands (i.e. they expect you to do things they would never do themselves, and where they are very capable of doing them).
Also consider that if they can't go lateral, then you are probably going to get hurt. How much you will be hurt has a lot to do with how deep and dark their narcissistic traits go. For malignant narcissists they go pretty deep and dark.
Anyway, to get back to their singular focus ... you have told them that you do not want to be dominated and controlled. They are still going to be acting like you never said that and continue to be dominating and controlling but in a much more provoking way. They will most likely be trying to embarrass you, perhaps even harass you, perhaps make you into a laughing stock, making cutting if humorous remarks about you to get people prejudiced against you ... this is all about getting the upper hand in opinions about you. They may call you inept and crazy, drum up a lot of fake narratives that "they do everything and you do nothing" - very common for malignant narcissists, even though what they've actually done is mainly to delegate. Malignant narcissists, when their power is being challenged, are very, very likely to call you "useless" too. If they can't force you into capitulation and submission, they usually try to enlist others to scapegoat you.
Scapegoating requires lots of lies and twists of the truth, and derision, and disgust, leading eventually to prejudice. In terms of having a singular agenda, they will work at this until it is done to their satisfaction, that everyone in your common sphere has taken their side against you. If these enablers and co-bullies don't go along with them, then they too are punished (mostly by "ghosting" - they also make it known that they regard anyone who disagrees with them as the enemy, and like all enemies, you must either be loyal or be beaten down).
So, because you are being recalcitrant about being controlled and managed by them, they will punish you for suggesting that they treat you with more respect and empathy, for thinking it is possible, for any mini-rebellion about being controlled by them. "How dare you think you are on the same par with me!" is the message you get. You also get: "You need to do what I tell you to do!"
Their first act of punishment is going to be triangulation. And they will focus on that exclusively until it gets as close as possible to what they want without suffering socially with people who have more authority than they do. They will try to find the weak spots in any of your relationships and try to get you separated from those people. They want people suspicious of each other which is why the triangulation goes hand-in-hand with negative false narratives. They demand other people see you as the enemy, as no one to be devoted to, as no one to be invested in, as no one to care about. The pressure to be unempathetic towards you will be a huge agenda of theirs. "They deserved it" will be the constant drumming.
Triangulation can work to their benefit precisely because of the single-mindedness about following their agenda. A whole family can go against one single member - I've seen it happen. A whole friendship circle may go against someone - I've seen that happen too.
Malignant narcissists who target the family for their triangulation objectives can also make life extremely difficult for the victim's spouse, hoping the spouse will want to get out of the marriage because the family is so awful. I've seen that happen too, especially with victims who still try to have relationships with some family members. They get torn between their spouse and family members.
I've also seen that if a spouse walks out on a marriage over this, the family members get so dangerously abusive and controlling, that the victim is left with no one, and they often feel so entrapped that they barely escape with their lives (like in the series Maid, where the character just barely manages an escape, but not just from the abusive husband, but a whole family who has been trained to abuse for a head narcissist). I've seen that happen too.
The more people are "stepping in line" with what the malignant narcissist wants in terms of "taking away" the relationships of the victim, the more satisfied they will be, the more they will laugh at the horrible state their victim is in. That is sadism. I've seen it many, many times with other survivors, and even experienced it myself. And who loves to see their victims in pain and getting scapegoated? Malignant narcissists.
Most malignant narcissists make a practice of continually and systematically triangulating victims, even if those victims are long gone from their lives. They want their victims to feel lonely and alone without support for the rest of their lives, and for their victims to believe that it's the only thing they deserve (it's why some of them resort to stalking, hoovering or stealing from their victims, to put their victims on edge again).
They want their victims to feel constant pain. They cannot handle victims who recover, and then lead a happy, normal life afterwards, for instance. They spend an inordinate amount of time trying to crush the self esteem of their victims through many verbal assaults and planned acts of derision, even when they manage to get their victims to do as they say - and not kidding; they practice pro-active abuse, just in case their victims try to buck the narcissist's plans for the victim. Basically it is a way of starving a victim of socially belonging, starving them of any empathy, starving them of respectful humane treatment, starving them of attention, and starving them of emotional expression.
As for emotional expression, they rage over your emotional expressions because they see sadness and tears as a criticism of them and their agendas, your anger at them as a provocation to fight you, happiness as an expression of rebellion against their authority, your peace and contentment as a challenge to their sadism, your feelings, thoughts and actions that happen out of their watch as a threat to their authority.
If you shut down all of your feelings and respond to him or her robot-like, you'll notice that the malignant narcissist will like it, except when he's in charge of baiting, taunting and provoking feelings out of you, usually in a bullying manner, so that he can convince himself that he, and only he, is in charge of your feelings: what you feel, how you feel, and how much pain he can inflict.
Which is to say that many, many malignant narcissists are paranoid too. Some have Paranoid Personality Disorder in addition to a range of Cluster B Personality disorders. However, active alcoholism can mimic Paranoid Personality Disorder too, so it is important to assess the reasons for their actions accurately. For victims, whether the paranoia is over substance abuse, or Paranoid Personality Disorder, or a narcissistic collapse, this is when, how and why malignant narcissists can be quite dangerous for victims. Note: most malignant narcissists are paranoid, so it is, for the most part, a "get out as soon as you can" situation (with a good safety plan - safety plans can be found at your local domestic violence center).
The combination of Paranoid Personality Disorder or active alcoholism, with Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder is particularly dangerous if it is accompanied by a calloused prejudiced perspective. This can mean scapegoating of anyone, or scapegoating a group of people. If they are scapegoating anyone, watch out!
Tyrannical despotic leaders who invade other countries tend to be malignant narcissists with pronounced Machiavellian traits, lots of prejudice, lots of paranoia, and often with sadistic characteristics too (often referred to as Dark Triads and Dark Tetrads).
Consider that the love bombing they do, the tyranny, telling you what to do and how to act, and when and how to submit, and all of the bullying they do, as an invasion of your personal boundaries.
At any rate, malignant narcissists want their victims to feel that they only deserve isolation, loneliness and constant abuse (with constant blame-shifting, gaslighting, and false narratives after every episode. Basically they want their victims to feel they have no value, certainly not valuable enough to experience anything other than terror and abuse, i.e. "worthless", a phrase that points to danger in and of itself).
Many, many malignant narcissists are physically abusive or practice false imprisonment in their adult lives, with someone, or with several people. Most malignant narcissists enjoy being threatening and intimidating to others (it makes them feel that they have power over individuals). Most malignant narcissists make fun of people who they think are below them in stature. Most malignant narcissists have very pronounced Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde traits. Most malignant narcissists want their victims to continually suffer, even if they have to get back into the victim's life with sweet talk to ensure that it happens. Most malignant narcissists break the law at some point in their lives in order to hurt other people, or a person. Most malignant narcissists believe they are special and will get away with crimes and unethical acts because they act so menacing, cruel and frightening to their victims. Most malignant narcissists do not follow polite codes of conduct. Most malignant narcissists play the victim (do a DARVO) after they have broken the law or when they are caught over an unethical act. Most malignant narcissists demand that you tell them sensitive personal information, but refuse to share sensitive personal information with you. All malignant narcissists blame-shift automatically, without thought. Almost all malignant narcissists get into other people's lives because they want something out of them (i.e. they act like Trojan horses with either sob stories or love bombing to get into your life - it is never about having a trusting, peaceful, share-the-power, compassionate, intimate relationship; it will always be about aggression, what they can get, how much submission they can get, and how much they can get away with, especially in the way of false narratives).
They can do what they did to other people to you too. It doesn't matter how much you believe they value you. Most of them come to devalue everyone eventually, unless they live to please them all of the time. And even then, the narcissist can turn on them over something most of us would find to be trivial.
Consider that any relationship you have with a malignant narcissist is not really a relationship. One person is tyrannizing another person into submission, and that's all there is to it.
NARCISSISTIC SUPPLY
Narcissistic supply has to do with a lot of things including giving the narcissist attention, giving them flattery, giving them the idea that they can manipulate us (even if we aren't doing it consciously), giving them constant validation, agreeing with them, giving them your submission, agreeing to vanquish their enemies or people they don't like for them, agreeing to be put into roles by them (especially letting them decide when you should be parentified and when you should be infantilized, going along with all of their lies knowingly, agreeing on letting them define you any way they please, and especially agreeing to give them power, control and domination over you. Narcissists will be sort of content, as content as they can be, if you are providing a constant stream of these kinds of things).
However, part of narcissistic supply is getting reactions out of you. Let's say they want you to be outraged. So they do something to provoke you in a way that you will be outraged. Typically they also tell you that something is wrong with you to react that way (which is a form of gaslighting with blame-shifting and a double-bind - all of this is common and one of the cat-and-mouse games that narcissists love to play - discussed by Shahida Arabi from the article above).
What this gives the narcissist is a lot of information, in particular what you are vulnerable to, how you can be manipulated, what they can do if they get insecure about your willingness to provide constant narcissistic supply, how you will defend yourself, what kinds of manipulations and abuses you will put up with.
For criminals, many of whom have Cluster B personality disorders, this cat-and-mouse game goes to the extreme:
For instance, you meet someone, and perhaps you get seduced. You think you are in the beginning of a loving relationship. You trust him and let him into your house, and cook dinner for him. He is staying at your house for the first time, and he steals your jewelry and what ever cash he can find. You are outraged at what he has done, and he says: "But you let me into your house! Why would you let me in your house? It was your fault for letting me in and having your jewelry and cash so available for the taking!" They may not say this directly to you, but when pressed by authorities during an arrest, these are the kinds of things they say if they get caught at making up lies. They are always going to put the blame on their victims for being "stupid".
And notice the blame-shift: "It was your fault for getting into a relationship with me and not being able to resist my charm; it was your fault for trusting me; it was your fault for letting me stay in your house; it was your fault for not hiding your money and jewelry; it was your fault for blaming me over it; it was your fault for not seeing me as a criminal", and on and on.
But they are also seeing what they can get away with, how much you will react. If they threaten you while they are stealing from you ("I'll come back and murder you if you so much as tell a soul about this!" - they are taking note of what they can take from you by being menacing and threatening).
Malignant narcissists are always going to be putting the blame on their victims; they are always going to be non-empathetic; they are always going to be lying and making false narratives about you; they are always going to be stabbing you in the back; they are always going to be getting off on your pain.
Seeing your pain is similar to Pavlov's Dog conditioning. I will explain ...
Malignant narcissists go further than that. They do all kinds of things to sabotage and hurt you, by pretending to be benevolent and compassionate towards you (when they think you won't suspect otherwise) - it's a narcissistic supply fix to be gutting you behind your back, taking your energy and good faith in them, and to get away with it. When they are no longer getting away with it, they will do everything they can to enhance the pain through any means they feel is necessary, whether that is triangulation, or smear campaigns, or hoovering, or stalking, or stealing, or murder. They love to see pain, and they don't care how much pain you are enduring, because their empathy is not just "extremely low", but often not there at all. Seeing empathy often disgusts them, in fact. "Those poor suckers!" is often how they speak about empathetic people.
The other sadistic behavior attributed to malignant narcissists is simply taking things that you want, making sure they always get more than you get, or get things that are your joint property, or get things by breaking into your residence, or purposely destroying your property. Then they will either excuse their behavior, minimize it, tell you that you were at fault for not having better locks or a good security system, or that they needed what ever they took more than you needed it. Again, stealing is a criminal activity, but like they do with abuse, they can and do normalize criminal behavior.
The most well-known sadistic behavior they exhibit is domestic violence, either bullying on a physical level or attempting false imprisonment, striving to take away your relationships and credibility, making up things about you, and trying in any way they can think of to hurt you some more. It's incredible that they won't just leave you alone, but the reason why they do this is for narcissistic supply (to see if they can elicit a negative response from you). They will tell you they can't stand you in more ways than one, and when you go away and relieve them of your presence so that each of you can find your own happiness, they don't want that. They want their journey to be a happy one, but they don't want yours to be happy. Your happiness makes them feel enraged, and the cycle of abuse starts again, even if it is just by proxy.
WITH A MALIGNANT NARCISSIST CAN BE DANGEROUS
(hint: BECAUSE THEY ARE USUALLY SADISTIC)
They don't like you bringing up subjects that show your autonomy from their influences, from their contributions, from their opinions, from their control.
For instance, someone asked me about my music career in the company of "Johnny" - not his real name (I talk about him in this post and in this post: he was deemed to "probably be" a malignant narcissist based on some psychology evaluation tests I took). So when I began to talk about my career in front of other people, I was shut down by him almost immediately: "I don't want to listen to this! It's so boring!" he said, and turned the conversation back to himself and his adventures. Now a music career is usually anything but boring, and I have had many decades in the profession, been on radio across the world, put out a number of recordings which won awards. You meet a lot of interesting people, some of them famous, some of them not famous but extremely talented, some audience members with incredible stories, and a lot of venues have their quirks which are fun to hear about. And traveling from place to place has its adventures as well (just as many adventures as Johnny liked to talk about in his own life). And I was asked to talk about my career.
It quickly became apparent that everything I talked about, and was asked to talk about from others, was deemed to be too boring by him in front of everyone else. The only thing he wanted from me were responses to what he said, and he had opinions about every single one of those responses.
Anyway, the reason I'm bringing this up is that this is the way malignant narcissists attempt to control conversations. They put their full attention to controlling conversations and what is talked about and not talked about in those conversations.
They certainly do not feel comfortable talking about private issues unless they are giving boundaries about what you are allowed to say there too.
The only time he didn't act like that was when someone had authority over him, showing the disparities of how he treated different people depending on their power over him.
If they deem that you have no power, or very little power, many malignant narcissists will either be micro-managing your every move, or having opinions and attitudes about everything you have to say.
It renders you invisible (unless you are putting your thoughts towards pleasing them all of the time). They are constantly manipulating to achieve this, and again, the focus and ambition can be so singular that you can't get away from it. It will always devolve into conversations about how much you are pleasing them and how much you aren't, how much you are following their directions and how much you aren't. Malignant narcissists press through "projects" like this until they are done. If their ambition is to have complete power, control and domination over you, they are going to do everything they can do to see it through, including getting other people involved in that ambition of theirs even if they have to run through hundreds of false narratives and lies about who you are and what you said to them endlessly, grinding you down, exhausting you, insisting that you agree with them.
It's frightening; it's depressing; it's sad; it's anxiety on steroids; and most of all it is dehumanizing.
Eventually, down the road you will be expected to agree with them on every single subject, or endure a rage, and very often abuse too. Malignant narcissists like pushing their victims around, both verbally through commands and physically through pulling and pushing. Even when they touch you with affection, very often there is even aggression in that: shaking your hand with too tight a grip, hugging you while rapping their knuckles on your head, hugging you and then taking your shoulders to push you away, hugging you too tight or inappropriately, and just generally giving affection with aggression behind it.
And if they are successful at dehumanizing you - guess what? They won't feel empathetic towards you or jealous of you. You're just a nobody, especially if they can get other people to view you that way too. And they do try hard.
If you can get out of the relationship safely, you have to take steps to ensure that they never are able to take away your autonomy again, especially in terms of decision-making and dignity (it means contacting a lawyer, and sometimes police, in many cases).
As far as "gray rock" is concerned, you are initiating the subjects. They don't want to hear those subjects - they will deem them to be as boring as your profession, your thoughts, your research, your expertise, your interests. If you have gotten to a place where the only thing they want to hear are your responses to what they are saying, gray rock will simply infuriate them. And since the method is getting to be more well-known, they will say things like: "So you think I'm a narcissist! Well I'm not, and just because you think that, I'm going to (inflict what ever pain they tend to use or threaten - retaliation is always on their mind too)".
Which is why most counselors want you out of relationships with malignant narcissists and anyone who is showing sadism. Managing these relationships is impossible because every interaction has to be about the malignant narcissist grinding you down into a submissive position. They often don't have any other thoughts except that one.
Jealousy is another huge feature of narcissism, and when I say huge, I mean huge. In the DSM-5, the manual psychologists use to diagnose patients, jealousy is mentioned twice in the list of symptoms for Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
When I was trying to figure out something in my own life, a psychologist told me that narcissists feel jealousy to such extremes, way more than other people feel it, that it is a factor in most decisions they make, why and how they compete with other people (unethically compete, that is) even in areas where most people don't compete like with family members or their own children, and why they treat people the way they do. When I looked into the work of Sam Vaknin (a psychologist who is also a self-proclaimed narcissist), and read some of HG Tudor's writings, watched You Tube videos by The Nameless Narcissist, and visited forums for narcissists (here's just one), on how narcissists deal with overwhelming jealousy on a minute-to-minute, day-to-day basis without wanting to destroy the targets of their jealousy, it was right up there with discussions about not feeling empathy in an empathetic world (creating feelings of shame, non-acceptance, and having to act empathetic while feeling the opposite). When talking to other narcissists, they also feel good that empathy does not burden them so much that they are rushing around trying to help people all of the time, anxious about the emotions of others, that the only person they had to take care of was themselves - in other words, even this subject is seen in a black and white way, and dichotomized.
Many narcissists feel chronically angry and like a misfit because of their endless jealousies.
Conclusion? The only way that most of them deal with their overwhelming feelings of jealousy is to abuse and compete.
The compulsion to abuse and discard afterwards looms so large in many of them that some of them feel they cannot control it. In some forums, some said that they found it to be the only way they felt better, less jealous. The more pain they could inflict on a target, the better they felt in terms of getting rid of jealous feelings.
This is a good insight to have if you are getting abused and rejected over little things that are not making sense to you, like not folding the towels just right, vacuuming a room wrong, or saying something they didn't like, being rejected over a look on your face, being left out of a Will by a parent, and being punished for not being submissive enough (they aren't jealous when you are submissive to them because submissiveness is the last thing that they want to be).
It explains so much about the "why" part of narcissistic abuse, especially when they are called upon to work out conflicts that make both of you happy and content (they prefer it if they are the happy one and you are the miserable one - again, they can't feel jealous of an unhappy person). It is also why they manufacture situations to get you to feel jealous, and preferably more jealous than they feel day in and day out. Again, they won't feel as jealous as a person who is more jealous than they are.
However, one of the things that keeps the rest of the population from feeling as jealous as narcissists do is empathy, so if their targets get jealous it won't necessarily happen the way they want it to happen; it won't mean their victims are consumed by it; it won't mean they have finally understood what the narcissist goes through with this emotion. Most people experience jealousy as fleeting.
For those people who are traumatized and dealing with prolonged PTSD (or C-PTSD as recognized by The World Health Organization), they may not feel jealousy at all because their brains are more consumed with surviving the traumatic experiences than on whatever head games are being played on them to get them to feel jealous. They may not even be aware of the head game to begin with because their attention has to be on ways to handle the symptoms of PTSD (which can be overwhelming) and the event that caused the PTSD (which can be overwhelming too).
And who gets PTSD and traumatized the most? Who are the targets of abuse? Empathetic individuals. They are already not all that prone to jealousy in the first place, and when they are abused to the extent where they get PTSD, they won't be feeling much, if any jealousy.
This, of course, will enrage the narcissist. Their games to get their targets jealous isn't working.
So it's a stab-in-the-dark thing that narcissists do (which means they aren't in touch with their victim's internal struggles ... it is because the narcissist is too consumed with manipulating, so they make an uncalculated stab-in-the-dark move, hoping to hurt them, but it doesn't have the effect that they hope it will have). Narcissists are not all that emotionally intelligent in general, and they especially aren't if they are doing this. If they were, they'd know if they really want to get someone's jealousy going in a big way, they'd pick on another narcissist. Narcissists, as I've said, are the ones with extreme levels of jealousy, and it doesn't take much to set the jealousy off.
But narcissists will keep trying and trying different tactics to get what ever jealous expressions they can get out of empaths. For them, it's a slot machine. They keep punching, kicking and stabbing at the slot machine in different areas with the hope that they will be rewarded.
It is why they try all sorts of things: boycott or upstage a child's achievements, wedding, successes. It is why they abandon you when you are sick or have been diagnosed with a terminal illness, or have had an accident, or someone close to you has died. It is why they have affairs and rub your nose in it (especially if they think it will upset you). It is why they have a golden child. It is to get the rest of their children jealous. Again, when they can get a lot of other people around them jealous, they aren't as jealous - but it is only temporarily, until some other situation pops up that makes them feel jealous again.
It is also why they micro-manage you: if they can micro-manage you with mundane inconsequential matters and rage about how imperfectly you do the chores, and try to switch your focus to pleasing them, and thereby keep you distracted from anything that might make you happy like a career, ambitions for a career, your talents, or personal goals, or a marriage, or autonomous decision-making, or deep relationships, they feel better, less jealous. It is also what drives them to be single-minded about making money to the detriment of everything else in their life (or for women, finding a wealthy man who will support everything they want, and who will spoil them) - and these two kinds of characters will attract one another.
If money is all-important, then they feel that relationships will be less important, and therefore they won't feel as jealous. They love things and use people, whereas the healthy human beings of this world use things and love people.
They tend to feel if they have a great deal of money, they will have a lot of power to draw people to them, a lot more control over others, less jealousy, and can manipulate people a lot better to do what they tell them to do, and to wave money in front of their faces - an instant gratification of jealousy from someone else - finally! It took them a lot of finesse to acquire so much wealth, or perhaps even stealing, or affairs with wealthy people to get them upwardly mobile - and now they can rub people's noses in their wealth, especially people who don't have money. And they get sick satisfaction out of it ... until they meet people much wealthier than they are. Oh, no, back in the dumps they go!
Of course, not everyone cares about money as much as they do. And they tend to be stingy about money, much more stingy and on-again-off-again in terms of enticing people with their money. Careers and work-places tend to offer a lot more in general than any relationship with a narcissist can offer, and most people don't want to be abused in exchange for money. In a way it's like being an "abuse hooker" instead of a "sex hooker". It can be incredibly demeaning.
Their compulsion to break up your relationships with false narratives and gaslighting also has jealousy behind it. They can't stand the thought that you may be in a happy relationship, supported unconditionally, loved in a way that they can't love, connected on a deep level, something a narcissist will never experience. They tell too many false narratives, are too manipulative and are plagued with too much black and white thinking to have a good meaningful connection with anyone.
The narcissists who have studied their own condition who I have mentioned above (Vaknin, Tudor, and the Nameless Narcissist) have all said that they don't know, or understand, any of their victims. They have also admitted that the only emotions they feel are rage, envy, jealousy and the compulsion to abuse and compete. They don't feel empathy and don't know how to go about feeling empathy.
If they can't break most of your relationships apart, they'll be jealous of those people who support you, and narcissists cannot stand that, so then they have to reject you along with all of the people who genuinely love you and offer support when the narcissist hurts you.
Jealousy is also why so many narcissists steal (they figure if they get what you have, they will feel better, have the upper hand in accumulation of wealth, accumulation of personal goods, and everything else). It's a way they manufacture jealousy too: "I get what you had, and I get what you want. And you can't have it. And the fact that you can't have it and that I took it away from you causes you pain. And you're so jealous that I have it! Yippeee!" - except stealing is against the law and carries with it more downside than upside in relieving jealousy. Criminals aren't exactly people to envy.
Do any of these manipulations ease the jealousy that they feel? Not really. They have to come back at you again ("lure then attack"), or find someone less savvy in detecting their personality disorder, and where their highly jealous natures aren't so obvious.
How they treat marriage partners is pretty predictable and also has a lot to do with jealousy. Again, they want you to be everything they don't want to be themselves. They want you to give and give to them emotionally without receiving anything back. They want you to be empathetic to every little displeasure they feel, even if it is tiny, even if it is grasping at straws, even if it is obviously attention-seeking. "You hurt me so egregiously over that teeny tiny thing that you no longer deserve any love from me again!" When they are incapable of empathy for you over the big challenges in life? Pppptttt! - and by the way, this is called gaslighting. It's also an excuse to hurt you. It's also about finding an excuse to hurt you because you are getting too autonomous with your decision-making (again, they won't feel jealous as long as they think they are making all of your decisions for you, and putting you in roles they would never want, and delegating jobs to you that they would never want either).
And of course, the ever-demanding narcissist will complain bitterly if their partner doesn't go along with everything they want and every entitlement they think they deserve. If they can't get what they want when they want it, they will resort to love bombing followed by being distant and disapproving, followed by the silent treatment, a rage, a beating, a disappearing act, or an extra-marital affair (the cycle of abuse - something I talk about in a section that follows).
If you can look at most narcissistic tactics as "jealousy on steroids" it will actually make you feel better. Their jealousy of you, in a way, is a compliment of your strengths (strengths they probably don't have), your talents (talents they probably don't have either), your honesty and openness (something they definitely don't have), and your relationships (they aren't in good relationships no matter what they say; they aren't capable of deep relationships, at understanding other people, and they lie repeatedly to people they are close to). They are also usually jealous of your intelligence, your empathy, your looks, and your authenticity.
Hitting you because you happened to glance momentarily at someone who is the opposite sex when they walked in the door of a restaurant, is obviously a manifestation of an incredible amount of jealousy. It's something that domestic violence victims talk a lot about, how their glance set off their partner's violence. As if glances were a crime - no they are not.
Wanting a beautiful woman they can show off to friends, but hating her beauty behind closed doors because it means she can attract other men is one of the double binds so many narcissists find themselves in. Part of hating the beauty is hitting her, giving her facial bruises and black eyes and putting her in the hospital.
So much of domestic violence is over jealousy, and trying to control their jealousy by putting their partners into dreamed up jealous situations (like affairs) and into submissive subservient roles where they demand that your focus always be on them, and pleasing them. For perpetrators to only feel at peace when they do this to a woman, you know their jealousy is out of control, crazy-making and yes, sadistically oriented to hurt you as much as they feel they can get away with at any particular time.
Every time they rage, abuse, and abandon you, you are probably acting more autonomous, more "out-of-their-control" than you usually do. Hopefully that should be telling: that they want you to be more subservient and submissive, not less so.
It's their temper tantrum over you taking a step out of being controlled by them.
"Oh, the freedom of autonomous decision-making!" you may think.
"No, no, no! Your mind is supposed to be consumed with pleasing me all of the time, and about how to get approval from me, not on making your own decisions! God forbid!" - even though you are a full adult - "If you dare to make an autonomous decision, you will be punished and fired from my love!" says the narcissist.
Again, anyone making autonomous decisions except them, makes them jealous ...
... And paranoid. If your autonomous decision-making eventually puts you in a relationship that is better than the one they have with you, which is pretty likely since your odds of being in another abusive relationship become slim once you become aware enough not to get involved with people whose empathy is sketchy, they will go right back to feeling jealous of you again.
Oh, the plans to make other people jealous do go awry!
And what message is that supposed to send? Could it have had some influence over the killing of Gabby Petito, or so many native American women who are abducted and killed from roadsides? Another link. Does it have anything to do with why so many more women are victims of intimate partner violence? Here is a Guardian article with the headlines, Private Violence: up to 75% of abused women who are murdered are killed after they leave their partners. That's partner violence, but I wouldn't be surprised if women escaping any abusive relationship, even by a family member, is at considerable risk. Sadism has an addictive component to it for the abuser, which I discuss below. It is one reason why it escalates and eventually reaches a dangerous level.
From hearing from some women who were of college age or in their twenties in the 1940s, many of them were working in factories to make uniforms, weapons and tanks, and other necessaries for World War II, while the men were enlisted into battle in Europe. When the men came back, almost all of these women were told to give up their jobs for the returning soldiers. Many of them resented it. Some of them still needed their jobs, but were told to get married to have a sound financial future instead.
Fast forward into the 1950s. From looking at "manners manuals" and fashion magazines of the time, it is clear that women were supposed to be completely submissive to men at all times, to only look forward to a job as home-maker and mother, and look attractive at all times to their husbands as well. Also, there was a very narrow margin of women who were deemed to be beautiful (they had certain hairstyles, were a certain age, wore certain kinds of make-up and clothes according the year's "trend", had a certain kind of figure, skin color, eye color, and so on). If you didn't "fit the mold", you were supposed to try your best to look like the magazine models and T.V. stars did.
"How to look beautiful" was often the only way you felt noticed, or that you existed enough for anyone to take notice, especially by the other sex. In other words, it wasn't at all like today where all kinds of body types, hair types, weights, ages, educations are in modeling and T.V. careers. Women were docile, but as I learned, often seething underneath their docility. Movies like "Nine to Five" show a little of what it eventually grew into if you dared to go out and venture into the working world, or if you had to get a job because you were a single mother.
So my understanding is that men originally set up women to compete with each other over attractiveness and appearance (as I was told), and as far as I know, it was a divide and conquer strategy: get women competing with each other, instead of joining forces and commiserating about how miserable it was to always be submitting. It was also so they would never complain that they aren't paid as well, so they weren't in good jobs, so that they would give up their jobs when men came around and would want them, so that they were forced into matrimony, and yes, forced into submission in a lot of those marriages too.
And it is also my understanding that the more you looked like a "standard beauty" of the day, the more likely you were to "land" a decent caring husband who might treat you better than usual, the more other women would be jealous of you rather than celebrating your marriage.
It sounds a lot like how narcissistic mothers act towards their daughters. I haven't met one daughter of a narcissistic mother with the exception of daughters placed in a golden child role, whose mother didn't try to make her daughter's wedding terrible. And from what I have seen, most daughters placed in a golden child role come from families without sons.
Competing with daughters over appearance is a lot of what narcissistic mothers do too, from having grown up and around attitudes that you must compete with other women, to garner the best respect in mating, careers, and educational settings. Competing with a daughter seems absolutely sick, but apparently that's a big trend in narcissistic women (another link, and another link and another link - these latter three articles are written by researchers and psychologists in the field, and there are a lot more of these articles in searches).
But always the most shocking is that the parent never intervened in any of these situations, let them all happen without intervention. And why, oh why, would a mother let these things happen?
Here's a good explanation that was told to me by a psychologist: if she's truly a malignant narcissist, everything that makes you feel bad makes her feel good: that's the cold hard truth of the matter. And since men may have culturally helped to create this situation, they often are the ones the mother enlists to take their daughter(s) down.
Both men and women, especially mothers and fathers need to truly care about the fate of all girls, especially if those daughters are cutting and acting suicidal (you'll notice that a malignant narcissist will abandon or make things worse for a suicidal daughter because she isn't acting useful to her Mommy Dearest, and if the mother's husband is an enabler to her, the most that many of them offer is: "Well, you know how your mother is! She has to have her own way in everything!").
I hope you can see how enabling fathers contribute to the abuse. A lot of competition-minded golden children contribute to it too.
So then there has to be a divorce, of course. Can't have a father who is protecting his own daughter from abuse! In the old days if you were a child under age 14, you had to lose your father over this, wave goodbye to him at the door afraid and with tears in your eyes, while your mother brought in some boyfriend who would "teach the daughter a lesson" with punishments behind it. Also you have to be brainwashed: the daughter has to agree to parental alienation under pressure, and get brainwashed into believing her Dad is a terrible father, and only the malignant narcissistic mother cares about her - again, it's just another lie with lots of head games, lots of coercion, lots of manipulation, lots of brainwashing, and lots of Jekyll/Hyde behavior with grandstanding outside the home and abuse inside the home, and erroneous blaming (picking apart silly incidents to get divorced over so that the real reason is disguised) - all of it happily becoming increasingly illegal since children are being assigned their own attorneys these days to keep this from happening.
"She's just a girl" is the common thing I see in forums as to how these dads talk to their sons about a daughter.
If you notice a girl is the scapegoat of the narcissistic parent, whether that's the mother or the father, you and the girl should avoid all competitions with their narc parent (even card games and board games), and definitely any competitions they set up with their siblings.
For a child, it is demeaning and sick that a parent will try to ensure that a girl will lose every time just because the parent can't regulate their jealousies without abusing girls and trying to crush their self esteem over and over again, throughout their entire childhood. It also sends the message to the rest of the family that girls are losers, that they are only as good as being submissive under the pressure of abuse, and that both men and women should try to ensure that girls and women lose and be second class citizens always.
Again, so sick.
As for a parent who is trying to help their kid(s) from experiencing narcissistic sadism, know that malignant narcissists will probably not treat their scapegoat well at any point. Having a scapegoat means: "This is the child I want to blame for everything, even the smallest silliest issues I can think of to upset them, and who I want to see in constant pain, no matter where it comes from, how many people it comes from, how it manifests, and how awful it is for them." - if they didn't want that for their child, they'd stop it.
The only time malignant narcissists stop scapegoating you (temporarily) is when they feel the need to punish the golden child for something. If you are experiencing luring, stalking, sweet-talk all of a sudden, contact the golden child and see if he is being ignored or given some sort of cold shoulder by the narc parent. I'd bet anything, he is. Again, it's a triangulation game to get the golden child jealous of the scapegoat, but once the golden child "straightens out", you will be taking the same crap you always took beforehand. Don't get involved in it.
Also be aware that narcissists rarely include a scapegoat in their Last Will. Wills for narcissists are not about caring about a child in old age, it is about the same thing they've always done: causing pain to a child to get narcissistic supply, and to savor the outcome, the ultimate Schadenfreude maneuver.
It does tend to go in that direction the longer you continue to have contact with narcissists who use this tactic.
Both overt and covert narcissists like to use the silent treatment, but covert narcissists use it much more than overt narcissists (it's one of the reasons they are referred to as covert: they like the passive aggressive forms of abuse).
Covert narcissists usually practice the silent treatment in conjunction with stonewalling and withdrawing love and emotional support. It is usually done when they are angry or in a rage about something, if a conflict is not being resolved to their satisfaction, or if they feel criticized by you. If the silence goes on for longer than 24 hours, you can almost bet you are dealing with a narcissist.
The silent treatment and covert narcissism go together like cake and ice cream - it's a given that they will do it to someone in their life, or even a lot of people.
Of course, you may not have actually criticized them, but just the thought of a criticism will usually set off a silent treatment, where they will treat you with contempt, and as though you don't exist. Narcissists are usually hyper-critical of others, but cannot take what they dish out, even the thought that someone might treat them the way they treat others makes them rageful (which is where you see entitlement). They may even seethe at you: "You think I'm a terrible (parent, or spouse, or friend, or family member)! Look at you! You're nothing special!" they may say.
But here's the double bind: you may not have thought of them as being terrible, but once they do a silent treatment on you, you probably will. People who indulge in the silent treatment are abusive (the silent treatment counts as abuse, and when done to children, as egregious emotional abuse with neglect).
People who are abusive are terrible at being spouses, parents, friends, co-workers, and good citizens of families and of society. But again they don't want to hear about it because they go into a rage when they are criticized for being abusive.
The silent treatment also shows a profound lack of resolution skills, lack of listening, lack of empathy and compassion, lack of an ability to compromise and find a middle ground, and sometimes a lack of remorse. "People who criticize me deserve to be hurt!" the narcissist thinks - it's a retaliatory hypocritical mindset, and of course, once they get into that mindset, they usually don't let go of it. They spiral; down, down, down, trying to find other ways to hurt their victim.
When you didn't mean to criticize them in the first place, this is how they want to deal with you? It's crazy-making and definitely audacious. It is also very delusional. They are imagining something that doesn't exist. A lot of malignant narcissists like to play mind reader, and if you tell them that they are wrong, then they invalidate it. "No, you are really thinking and feeling this." - horrible. But invalidation and perspecticide is almost always going on unless you are being very submissive and letting them define reality (or unreality, as it turns out to be).
It can be even worse if they drink alcohol in any significant quantity, or are alcoholics. Drinking can induce people to see hostility in facial expressions when there isn't any. If you have come across someone who insists that you meant hostility towards them because of your facial expressions, this may be why. But, if they are punishing, sadistic, abusive and retaliatory about it, they are probably malignant narcissists (or possibly both - with a drinking problem).
At any rate, they are weaponizing silence and using it to kill love, connectedness, responsibility to the bond, trust, and most of all, what ever peace used to be between you.
Even if they "have you" back again, the best they are going to get is a trauma bond with you, if they get anything at all. A trauma-bond is what it sounds like. The victim will have trauma symptoms in relating to the narcissist. This can include an inability to focus on tasks, difficulty answering questions, conversations, resolving issues. The victim may get triggered when the narcissist speaks or lectures. They may be triggered and possibly dissociate when the narcissist gets rageful, authoritarian and demanding. They may get triggered when the narcissist lies and gaslights (extremely likely that the narcissist will do both). They will probably flinch if the narcissist touches them. They will probably have nightmares about the narcissist. They will probably feel depressed, exhausted, constantly upset and walking on eggshells being around the narcissist. They will probably be looking away when the narcissist is showing a lack of empathy. Even little tiny babies react to narcissists' lack of empathy and unstable connectedness by looking away from them and getting fussy.
And how do narcissists react to all of this? They rage: "This damn person is USELESS!!!!"
And, of course, most narcissists are not emotionally intelligent enough to know that the silent treatment rendered their victim useless to them. Unfortunately, emotional intelligence takes some empathy, and they have so little of it that they are out of touch with how people generally react to being attacked or ignored (all they usually have is just lip service to empathy: cold cognitive empathy where they try to sound empathetic, but they aren't actually empathetic).
And what do sadistic narcissists do with useless recalcitrant victims? They'll want to hurt them more for not being more useful (submissive). It defeats the whole purpose of connecting, which is why a lot of people who get a long silent treatment no longer want to talk to the person giving it: there is usually nothing to talk about regardless, unless you want more arguments, abuse, demands, and commands from the narcissist with gaslighting, lecturing, blame-shifting, non-quite-believable crying jags, and everything you faced before and can no longer deal with, or want to deal with.
If the silent treatment goes on for longer than seven months, the relationship has, in almost all ways, died.
The most intense grieving is in the first seven months, for instance. That probably has something to do with it.
Most narcissists, with the exception of malignant narcissists, know this, or they know enough to try to return before those seven months are up. Two weeks to three months is the average amount of time that they enact a hoover (until I put up the post about hoovering, it means they try to get you back into their life again, but unlike a sincere apology or overture, they want to get you into a cycle of rescue ---> honeymoon ---> tension building ---> abuse ---- back to rescue ---> honeymoon ---> tension building ---> abuse, round and round ...).
In it's way, it is quite cruel too because they use the height of your grieving against you: as a way to see if they can win you back, to see if you will abandon your grieving and let their charm, flattery, gifts, or their presence win you back. They may say they are sorry; they may say they missed you. What it gives them is an enormous amount of information about what they can do to you and you'll still take them back. It also gives them a significant hit of narcissistic supply. And it is definitely a head game because they do another silent treatment again, perhaps worse, when you've got something critical going on in your life. And they do it again, and again, and again, sometimes promising that they will never use it again in at least one of the cycles, but then reneging on the promise with excuses. They do this to see if they even need to make a promise at all, to see if you will take them back with broken promises. It is all very "cat and mouse", but eventually, the victim gets exhausted, disillusioned and, yes, traumatized, and the narcissist's usual "charm" wears off too, at least for the victim, and holds no enticements.
And guess what? Even then, many of them will want to hurt you some more: "Well, you never meant much to me anyway! I always liked person X way more than I liked you!" - I mean, really! It's like kicking a dog that is injured from head to toe.
For malignant narcissists, they are so out of touch with what their victims are going through, and even who they are that they most often go past the seven month mark with their silent treatment. They also believe that everyone they have been cruel to and who they have hurt, likes or loves them, owes them, that all of their past victims will be submissive for them again under certain circumstances. Malignant narcissists have enough delusions of grandeur, plus delusions about what their victims think, feel and experience, that they can be quite dangerous as I've said before. They also lie and gaslight way too much and even to themselves that they do not have a good grip on reality itself.
And to make them even more delusional, many malignant narcissists also have Paranoid Personality Disorder too. Even if they don't have the full personality disorder, they can gradually get to a hyper paranoid state because they are much more prone to narcissistic collapse than other kinds of narcissists, the result of being too aggressive, too invasive, too prone to attacking with criminal intent (where they get caught), instigators of domestic violence, false imprisonment, over-the-top threats, use of the DARVO tactic on steroids - they can be twisted, in other words.
Despotic leaders who invade other countries without being provoked tend to be malignant narcissists too, with significant paranoiac and conspiratorial traits. The general feeling you get is that they are cruel, cold, narrow minded, out of touch with how human beings react to being forced to submit, to lies, to violence, to being invaded, to being victims of crimes, to being put in positions of danger. They do not even have a handle of how people react to aggressions, because they do not self reflect enough to think "If someone did this to me, it would hurt me in these kinds of ways." In addition, they don't have the kind of empathy where they understand how a victim feels or thinks. That's why they have to make it up so much.
In a way, there is nothing or no one to relate to: their minds are swimming in a stew of conspiracies, paranoias, getting drug-like highs from hurting other people, crazy off the wall narratives about the intentions of others, fantasies of how they will hurt or destroy other people, fantasies that their victims want to destroy them instead, fantasies that they have many more iron-clad loyal allies than they actually do, fantasies that they will be even greater leaders than ever before with a host of submissive boot lickers around, fantasies of how they will gain ever more power, and too many unprovoked dark intentions, ethics and traits than most people can deal with.
Because of all of this, it makes no sense to talk to malignant narcissists about much of anything - and most of us see that talking to them is pointless. They can't and won't hear what you have to say anyway (they have too many interpretive filters on all kinds of topics, especially emotional ones), and their profound lack of empathy, their pronounced grandiosity, their lack of remorse for hurting other people, adds up to sadism. "Will the first person who wants to have a relationship with a sadistic person, please stand up!" No one is going to stand up.
All narcissists however, are way too caught up in an incredible desire to use the silent treatment tactic despite what it does to relationships, or to the victims. The desire can be seen to be so strong in them that it negates researching, understanding, and knowing what the real outcomes are for using it, for themselves and others ... if you have ever wondered why on earth they'd resort to using this kind of destructive treatment to resolve anything. They probably don't know why they use it really. The desire supersedes any cognitive reflection (internal questioning about it).
I'm pretty sure they know that it causes pain to their victims, possibly to themselves too in the long run, especially victims who are communicating that it hurts, who are reporting that they feel unable to cope, that they feel sick, that they can't sleep well, who are pleading with the narcissist to stop (which all victims experience from silent treatments in a close personal relationship; it is the beginning of the "trauma stage"). The fact that some narcissists, and especially malignant narcissists, either do not respond to the fact that their victims are in pain, or keep ramping up more abuses like smear campaigns, and enlisting co-bullies to threaten and treat their victim even worse, proves sadism. And it also proves they totally enjoy being sadistic.
Otherwise why would they have such a desire to try to inflict even more pain on top of the pain they already inflicted?
And of course, they indulge in schadenfreude afterwards.
Need any more proof that they are sadistic?
And by the way, there are studies - see professional articles below - which suggest that narcissists know, to some extent, that their sadistic characteristics may very well add up to masochistic outcomes and tendencies eventually.
If you have doubts, I invite you to read on ...
What narcissists hope to achieve by using the silent treatment is "their own way". They really do believe (and yes, it is a belief rather than any kind of proof) that freezing their victims out will mean that they will get all of the power, control and domination in the relationship with you ... that when they want something enough from another person, all they have to do is to become cold, withholding, silent, and refuse to listen or respond to what you have to say, and refuse to offer support or kindness in any way. You can be in pain and what you get is silence, as I've explained before.
And the desire is still there, which is why there is a cycle of abuse instead of a total make up with the victim.
The victim's mind will be on what hurts and what the narcissist is doing to them first. Then their thoughts might be "the narcissist might do it again." Then: "And what kind of danger am I in?". Then "The narcissist is probably not trustworthy." Then they worry that their symptoms are getting in the way of their lives, and it takes them over them like a "host" in their body, so much so that they can't focus on what the narcissist wants from them any more. It's called "the hypervigilant stage". And it's normal. And it's reasonable considering that narcissists have very little chance of changing their domination head games with their victims. Even if the victim knows nothing about narcissism cognitively, their psyche and body is telling them something: "be hypervigilant!", "don't trust, don't feel, don't talk!", the typical rules of toxic relationships.
There's the narcissist's first disappointment: the victim is wrapped up in his own self, his feelings, what his mind is experiencing, the aches and pains in his body. The narcissist is just this volatile sideline figure where the victim has to figure out what to do.
The narcissist's brain is activated by the hippocampus if they are scheming a way to hurt their victim, and the tiny center nucleus of the amygdala (not the whole amygdala, in other words, which is mostly shut down, just the part that controls the jaws - maybe why they rage and argue so much?), and the victim's brain is amygdala hijacked without much functioning in the hippocampus. So they are opposites in that the amygdala is mostly off-line in the predatory narcissist when they are planning, and ready to enact an abuse, and the hippocampus is off-line in the victim. This is what goes on between predators and prey too, by the way.
And that's the reality of the situation: the narcissist and the victim are caught up in a predator/prey kind of relationship, and the best survival for the victim is actually "flight", just as it is in the animal world.
The following paragraph is about a prey animal that also experiences trauma:
I was reading or watching something about rabbits one day. Normally rabbits come out in the evening and early morning to eat. They are vigilant about predators, and they can often run away. But if a fox has caught a lot of them, the remaining ones spend much more time than they used to in their den underground. They get trauma symptoms. They have fewer babies, or no babies. Human beings who are being looked at as prey don't react much differently: they isolate, they hide or run away, they tend to bond with other people who have gone through something similar, their best relationships are with people where there is mutual trust, mutual safety, a lot of numbers, and where they are understood beyond being just prey for narcissists. And, many of them who have grown up with narcissistic parents, have few children or no children. If you are a survivor of egregious child abuse, how many of your siblings and cousins who were similarly abused or from a toxic family environment, did not have children? Half? It's a sign.
In terms of the silent treatment on a marriage partner, it can work the way the narcissist wants it to work at least once or a couple of times. They might say to the narcissist: "What's the matter, honey? Why have you stopped talking to me?", "Why are you turning away from me? Am I doing something wrong?", "Why are you being so cold? Is there anything I can do for you?" and so on. There will be overtures on the victim's part, and yes, the narcissist will get their way (a little more power, a little more control, a little more domination every time they use it). But chronic use of it will send up red flags. It will lead to distrust, then resentment, then pain, and then probably some sort of separation, even if it is just emotional and cognitive separation at first - they won't want to share what they are going through with you.
For children, they won't be saying "What's wrong?" necessarily. If they do say it, and the explanation is unreasonable, or has perspecticide in it, or is about breaking their self esteem, or is about neglecting the child's needs, or is obviously going in the direction where the parent wants ever more domination and control, especially during the teenage years and adult years, they will usually end up with an estranged child. Even for children younger than 13, the silent treatment is tremendously damaging. Children are aware instinctually that it is not nurturing, not loving, not caring or compassionate, and that their parent lacks all of the things required in good parenting, and unless another parent is fighting for the mental, emotional and physical health of the child, the silent treatment can have long-lasting devastating effects, and even have adverse repercussions on the developing brain.
I think the reason why children aren't as ameliorating towards a narcissist as a spouse is because it works against a child's best interest, their continual development into autonomous adults, and it goes against biology itself for a parent to want more and more control and domination over a teenager or adult child. In fact, from gleaning survivor forums, most survivors don't even look at their parent as a parent any more. They tend to look at their parent as a competitive, mean, bratty, bullying, aggressive teenager, or worse: as a child bereft of adult behavior.
Covert narcissists (including covert malignant narcissists) seem to be internally programmed to use the silent treatment on other people, even their own kids. Children do tell their parents to stop using it, that it hurts, but again, narcissists either will delight in it, or they refuse to hear it without thinking of it is a dire criticism of them which must be raged about, and possibly sadistically punished over. Sadistic punishments do have a way of repeating themselves over, and over, and over again. It's the aggressors playbook: terrorize, hurt, and kill off the spirit of others to get them to submit.
It is never a child's duty to think of his or her parents as "a good parent" anyway, and especially if the parent is abusive, rejecting, self serving and is only in the relationship to get submission. Raging and punishing a child over the parent's own "image-rated issues", is also atrocious parenting. Conflicts never get resolved because the parent has refused to treat the child with the same kind of respect that they demand from the child.
Thus, this is how narcissists can become masochists instead of apex gloat-in-the-dark predators.
One of the ways you can tell how dangerous other people are is when they let their guard down enough to talk about other people. Narcissists will usually be really derisive and denigrating of other people. Again, it's extreme. They will not like most people. Something is always wrong with everyone they know except strangers, people they know superficially, or people who have more power than they do. Being harshly and unjustly judgmental is definitely a sign of all narcissists, but malignant narcissists will go further, and trash-talk about benevolent, kind, upstanding citizens ... in other words, people not hostile, or dangerous, or criminal, or addicted to the point of criminal activity, or bullying, or dominating, or without bad intentions towards them.
Again, paranoia can be part of the picture for them, and particularly for sadistic narcissists, so they may see hostility when there isn't any. They can even cut people out of their life who they think "might" have bad intentions towards them.
Because of the menacing, seething degree that they express their hatred, it is likely to either create anxiety, depression or disgust in others with more normal and moral constitutions. Most people do not come even close to hating others to the degree that they hate. "Disappointed" or shaking their head over the adverse behavior of others is about as close to hatred as most people get (and that is a good way to tell if they are narcissists - that kind of contrast).
Most people do not hate anywhere near to the degree that they hate, so it does make most people uncomfortable to hear "hate speech" and prejudiced perspectives.
In most people, the private side and the public side will match. Not with narcissists, and definitely not with malignant narcissists.
While some of them can be close to others, most of them are truly only close to one other person in their lives. However, they do not trust anyone. And that one person they feel close to has to keep proving they are loyal over, and over, and over again, even to the point of hurting other people for them. The only people who can be loyal to that degree to someone without ethics and morals, without empathy, and with that much of a criminal mindset with such hatred in their hearts is going to be, most likely, another narcissist or sociopath. So even the company they keep can be dangerous for you.
And as I've said, malignant narcissists are very often physical abusers, or they like to enact false imprisonments. Most of them have pronounced fantasies about either one, or both, and if they let their guard down, they will tell you eventually what their fantasies are about. Wishing you dead or injured or hurt (especially if those people are not trying to harm the malignant narcissist) should send up red flags right away.
Trying to escape the malignant narcissist is not a "discard" in the way that they discard. They discard over power and control issues, that they are not happy with the power they already have over you. For victims, walking away is a safety issue and a healing-from-trauma issue, however, malignant narcissists will try everything they can to turn it into "you discarding them over a power and control issue". Many narcissists call their victims narcissists - it is projection at work.
People entering into families like this can find all of it very confusing. "Will the real abusers stand up!" - they won't do it, of course. I would say look into how many estranged members there are in the extended family - especially if there are any estranged children from parents, how many divorces, how many have substance addictions, how many golden children there are (i.e. obvious favoritism of a child), how many suicide attempts there have been among members, how many extramarital affairs there have been among members, how members talk to one another by lecturing, interrupting, shaming, and trash-talking about other members - that's all the sign of a toxic family most of the time.
As to who are the abusers - members who dominate conversations (abusers must be in the dominant position), plus lecturing, plus being a little too sweet and familiar, plus interrupting and trash-talking about other members with you or with the rest of the members of a family, plus blaming in a black-and-white way ("totally at fault" for instance), laughing while they tell others that their victims are crazy, are most likely the real abusers. Also most abusers do not go to therapy, especially to repair relationships with their victims, however their victims overwhelmingly go - another sign.
This is just one reason why abuse escalates - they must inflict more and more pain, and different variations of pain to get the same "grandiosity high" that they got before.
Also in studies on sadism, once the victim of the sadist is no longer hurt, the sadist is likely to feel sad. In order to get the "sadistic high" they used to have, they feel they must inflict more pain on that victim, or find another victim.
Since most malignant narcissists practice the more egregious forms of abuse, it can easily turn into a life threatening situation - and very fast. Verbal abuse that is annihilating, threats, micro-managing your speech and movements, and any aggressive touch (especially to the face, head and neck, past or present) is cause for great concern in terms of safety.
Having a good safety plan for an escape is also very important because narcissists can get even more dangerous when you escape. Don't think that because they are telling you that they hate you over and over again that they want you to leave.
Getting a good safety plan tailor-made for your situation is possible at your local domestic violence center. Never under-estimate the dangers, even if there are some pleasant times, and don't fall into a state of cognitive dissonance if you can, at all, help it. Consider that what you are experiencing is not a relationship at all: it is about a person trying to terrorize another person into submission - if you keep that in your mind at all times when you get periods of cognitive dissonance, then you may survive much better.
Being the victim of someone else's sadism will definitely create trauma symptoms. It is extremely unhealthy, mentally, emotionally and physically. Yes, you can get physical symptoms from abuse, even without any physical abuse.
And, of course, if you've quit the relationship or you've gotten a restraining order, they will be using smear campaigns and schadenfreude, laughing at you when you are in pain, or when you've fallen down.
Most of us cannot bear the sadism without symptoms, nor do we particularly want people in our lives who deal in smear campaigns, and laugh at our pain, and want us to feel more pain.
IS HOW PEOPLE REACT TO IT IN THE REAL WORLD
Sadism is one of the most ugly traits of human beings because it mostly manifests when victims are considered to be weak, disabled, traumatized or too young to defend themselves. That alone can create a feeling of nausea in most of our stomachs.
When we relate to sadists, some of us go at them like: "I can be just as dangerous to you as you are to me, even if it's a different kind of danger, so you better lay off!" - and some of us feel we have to prove it, especially sadists who keep going at us. "Fighting back", even if it is just making a call to police, or telling others what we went through, or putting in a major security system, does make a difference in their continued assault or aggression most of the time. Again, they like weak individuals, and when we do things like this, we are showing them we aren't weak. They'll have to look for a weak person somewhere else, and we know they will ...
But really the end result of it all is that we want nothing more to do with the sadist or sadists, even if it takes awhile to get there. Unless we are that desperate for interaction with them, or are still stuck in wanting approval from them, or we still want to get our point across, or to be understood, which we won't be (see the next section below), we are going to either be running away, or backing up slowly. The one thing we withdraw first is our trust in them. That is understandable and natural.
Even if we did talk to them, that would no longer figure in because their sadism is always going to be in our minds, and make us reserved about their intentions towards us. And with narcissists it makes them extremely angry, their entitlement to us in that way (when they are sadistic? - it's part of the delusion of grandeur, I suppose).
One other issue for sadists is that if you were bullied in school, or sexually abused as a child, or the victim of child abuse in your family, you know that it gets worse and escalates. You know that they keep dreaming up attacks, and trying to get information on you as to "how hurt you are", and how much they are getting away with being sadistic, and figuring what they need to do next to get the next high and power trip over being sadistic.
It is basically the same planning that goes into war planning by despotic dictators. But like all sadists, they run huge risks in being sadistic, because on some level, they have to be dealing in false narratives about their victims, otherwise the support for their aggressions would not be there.
The problem for sadists, of course, is that it becomes too risky or poses too much of a social problem to them to use a victim who is fighting back, or defending themselves, or talking to others, or getting police involved, so they become repeat offenders, adopting another victim who is even more vulnerable. This makes sadism a societal problem. "Repeat offending" is highly likely for offenders with personality disorders because they already lack empathy and they are probably already spouting lies about their victims; they already have a lust for power and control no matter what the road blocks are and no matter how it effects others, and they most likely lack ethics too (even sadism, all by itself, shows a huge lack of ethics after all).
And we don't need insecure people who have a compulsion to boost their importance who strive to be sadistic just to get attention.
Their need for power and control also has nothing to offer: what could we possibly get out of being submissive? For anyone who has been through any kind of abuse, being submissive only added up to more sadistic acts against us. At most, submission is only a temporary survival strategy, and not a very good one at that. Sadism is usually accompanied by "the pleasure of hurting others", and that means the escalation of sadism to get "a drug-like high" will always be a problem in relating to them.
Sadism has a lot of negative consequences for perpetrators, their targets and peace in the world. It is especially not appropriate, necessary or conducive for close personal relationships. It is more and more unlawful too, with increasing pressure by society on politicians "to do something". Leave the predator/prey relationship to the animal kingdom, until they too, grow out of it.
WHEN MAKING DECISIONS
ABOUT NARCISSISTS
As for the psychologists, this is standard in terms of what you will learn and be told when you go to psychologists on these issues. One of the differences between psychologists and domestic violence counselors is that domestic violence counselors tend to focus more on safety issues, the brainwashing done to you, trying to get you to see the cognitive dissonance when it comes to your relationship (which can put you back into an unsafe situation again). Psychologists tend to focus much more on the characteristics of the disorder, the tendencies of victims, and the research being done in the field of both. They are heavily focused on the DSM and the Five Factor Model. While domestic violence counselors are privy to the research too, the therapy approach isn't about focusing on them so much as how you've been brainwashed, how you have been toyed with, how you have been manipulated, how others have pushed their perspectives of you in an aggressive hostile manner that is more about a reflection of what they want out of you rather than who you are.
In the old days before I was a researcher, I found domestic violence counseling "rough" at the time, like how alcoholics describe Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, but I can now see that it was necessary to get me out of the dreamy "la-de-da" cognitive dissonance frame of mind I was in (knowing what I know now, I may have been in as much danger as Gabby Petito was in, maybe more so).
Psychologists afterward furthered my knowledge of what I was up against, but they don't challenge the brainwashing, the attitudes and states of mind survivors typically go into, or even make many suggestions beyond some methods like the DEEP method, the gray rock method, and sometimes setting boundaries.
If I had to choose which kind of professional to go to, I would still have chosen to go to a domestic violence counselor first, and then afterwards talk to psychologists who specialize in the Cluster B Personality disorders. I find psychologists a little too soft and cerebral about issues having to do with abuse, and more ineffectual, or maybe the word is not as "serious", in treating the cognitive dissonance of victims.
Anyway, here are the videos with my notes (I wrote notes to address cognitive dissonance - I have similar kinds of notes to these which I look at so that I, myself, don't slip into cognitive dissonance either). I have to read my notes when I have doubts, or double-takes, because I have a cognitive dissonance kind of mind, or what psychologists would refer to using the Five Factor Model as an "openness to new thoughts and experiences, new perspectives and exploring different beliefs".
The videos and notes:
Those 8 signs:
1. Nasty anger. Bad Temper. Easily argumentative. Cursing. Threats of harm. Contempt of you.
2. You are made to feel responsible for the narcissist's mistakes. The insinuation is "This is your fault! You're responsible for making me feel this way!" Are you required to go along with their thoughts that everything is your fault?
3. Hyper-control, micro-management, unsolicited advice, an agenda to control you. Too much criticism about how you do things.
4. Easily jealous. Doesn't want you to have connections with others. Suspicious.
5. Over-emphasizing your accountability towards them. You feel smothered and are often text-bombed.
6. You are being required to isolate from those people who care about you. You are losing connections as a result of being involved with them (or of having been involved with them).
7. They are willing to humiliate you when you are out in public together: Deep insults. Ridicule. They show that they want to "keep you in your place". Everyone who cares about you usually gets ridiculed too.
8. The narcissist uses stonewalling. From Dr. Carter: "If you don't give them what they want, they'll go into the silent treatment with you; they'll punish you with their withdrawal. They throw a thick impenetrable wall around them. They won't let you know who they are. They want to know everything about you, but they aren't going to allow you to know what is cooking on the inside of them. They don't admit their own problems. Very, very strong defensive structure."
Some of his advice: "Listen to what your pain is telling you. If you're constantly feeling hurt, and discouraged, and put down, what is that trying to say? That's your inner person saying, 'I can do better than this. I need to do better than this.'"
* Next up is a test to decipher sadists. Obviously only a sadist can answer these questions, and a lot of them would probably lie if you gave them this test yourself. If they wanted to become less sadistic and went to a therapist or anger management class, these kinds of questions would probably be the types of questions that would be asked. A lot of the questions have to do with control (it is how sadism gets started: by wanting to control someone or a group of people). The way that I think it is useful for victims is that if you are already in a close personal relationship with someone you suspect is a sadist, you already have a sense of how much they want to control you and hurt you, and from there you can get a sense of how deeply into sadism they might be. This test comes from this article: Scientists developed this 9-question test to measure how sadistic someone is - by Rafi Letzter for Business Insider.
The test (as written in the article):
"1. I have made fun of people so that they know I am in control.
Note: I underlined passages in his speech that I hope help you to see the big picture of what is going on. Most of us are vulnerable to cognitive dissonance (being unsure) when we are in abusive relationships, but if you underline why you can't deal with the abusive person, and every time you wonder if you did the right thing in leaving them or stepping away from any kind of deep relationship with them, I think the list of these underlined ingredients in your relationship can help you realize again and again, why it was necessary, and why your own self care either will be greatly diminished in this relationship, or more likely cannot even exist in a relationship like this.
As I have in the previous entries, I put quotation marks around things he actually said, but where you find breaks (like ...), I didn't include for the sake of brevity, or because it was redundant):
"In general, dealing with narcissists can be a very difficult proposition because who wants to hang out with someone who is constantly trying to figure out how to maintain control over you? ... that what ever needs or feelings or interpretations you have are just summarily dismissed. They have this haughty attitude towards you - and all of that is difficult enough. But when you get to the point in a relationship with a narcissist where they've had enough of you, and they are thinking, 'You have not done what I want you to do; you have not given me the supply that I require or desire from you; it's payback time!' Then when they get to that point it can be just an awful experience. When narcissists have their sense of woundedness, or their sense of disappointment, or sense of disillusionment, they can turn into a mean person, and beyond ...
"This is true with both the overt narcissist and the covert narcissist. You kind of expect it from the overt narcissist because they can be so brash, so loud, and so 'out there', but it gets really disappointing when that narcissist didn't seem terribly narcissistic - the covert - they can come on with a vengeance, and they can come on with a cruelty that catches you off-guard, and it's terribly, terribly painful." ...
... "Now let's say that there are some individuals that go into this 'payback narcissistic mode', who are not just mean, but they actually feel a sense of stimulation when they see you writhing in agony. This is what we refer to as 'the sadistic pattern' of narcissism. ...
... "It's like 'This is my way of illustrating that I'm the ultimate. Don't forget it.' It is beyond pathetic when we see individuals willing to go into that space ...
... "There's some entertainment themes that we have in our world today that absolutely sicken me. And when I say 'sicken' me, it just makes me feel awful ... just some of the movies we have that glorify the psychopaths and killers - it's bad enough to have that on the entertainment scene, but I think it's gotten worse in years past, but when you take that same mentality and bring it down to the individual personal level, that's when it becomes pretty real.
"When we talk about people who have this rank pleasure 'Rah! Rah!' mentality of inflicting pain, there are multiple indicators we want to watch out for.
"Now I've mentioned before that they have the core ingredients of sadistic narcissism, but when we say these individuals are entitled, they are very entitled. When we say these individuals (narcissists) have low empathy, we're talking very low empathy. When we talk about narcissists having an under-developed conscience, with sadistic narcissists, it doesn't exist.
... "They don't just lust for power ... they want ultimate power; they want ultimate dominance; they want your subjugation in the worst sort of way ... and again, they smile as they see it unfolding." ...
... "These people can be terribly calloused, cold blooded. They are unmoved when you say, 'Stop it! Quit it please! Leave me alone.' And it's like, 'Nope. I haven't got enough. Let's keep this going.'
"They are major score-boarders. When they get to a point where they think you are winning over them, they are going to come through and it's like, 'I'm going to pummel you until you go down to zero.' ...
... "They have zero conception of compassion. Or love. Or basic dignity.
"They are in constant pay-back mode. Everything, as far as they are concerned, is 'tit-for-tat'. It's like 'You give me this, and I'll give you that, and if you don't, it's curtains for you.
"And then these sadistic individuals operate with a great deal of paranoia. In other words, they can't trust ... And of course they have lots of double standards: 'You exist to take care of me, but I don't take care of you. You exist to fill me up, but I'm not going to fulfill you with anything other than misery'.
"So then this leads to the question: how does a person get to the point of being so low in the way that they engage with people? ... Somewhere they received the message this is a cold-blooded world ... and now they are basically saying, 'I'm going to be the one from now on who gets to harm you. I win when I damage you worse than when I was damaged.' That's how they think! Many of them will say, 'Nah! It wasn't that big of a deal.' Yes it was! ... Likewise we can say they get to this point because they have no good, or clean, or lasting emotional connections. They see relationships, if we can use that word with them, in terms of utility only. And when they engage with you in a relationship, basically what they are saying is 'I want to have ownership over you. And I want to have the final word.' They don't just see it in a modified way. It's like: 'I'm in your head, and you need to filter everything through me.' And when they go into this negativity, it is part of their sadism.
"They have no guilt, no remorse ...
"Being mean energizes them ...
... "understand that you cannot assume what-so-ever that this sadistic narcissist can reason with you. It's simply not going to happen. They don't have any moral compass; they don't have any ethics to draw from.
"When ever you attempt to call them out, it simply becomes, to them, a reason to argue. Simply don't go into that space.
"These individuals are not just resistant to change, they are highly resistant to change. Drop that illusion.
"Move away when you can, and do so with the least amount of provocation, the least amount of competitiveness, because it's bad enough to be in the presence of a hornet's nest, and when you're getting away from it, you don't want to swat at it, because they'll chase you down.
"Instead make yourself known to appropriate people. There can be a certain amount of accountability if possible, with consequences and stipulations, and boundaries in place.
"But allow certain people to remind you of your core dignity ... and hopefully the brainwashing you've been exposed to can become minimized ...
... "Your pain is not a joke. And it's not to be minimized. They will do so, but you need to take extra precaution when you realize what you're up against. Listen to what your pain is saying: 'I NEED to get away from what is causing this' ... "
From the comments section of his video that I thought were useful:
Marie Rose writes in the comments section:
"Listen carefully, when anyone laughs sadistically when a story is told about someone's painful experience. It is always a red flag for me. I am not just talking about slipping on a banana peel. I register the laugh and it tells me everything."
* Next up: Another Dr. Les Carter video that I also took notes on: A Three Trait Combination That Makes Narcissists Dangerous . And if any of you have been following the story about the Johnny in my life (a made up name), this describes him to a "T" (and when I first saw this video, I understood all of the reasoning and advice I got from professionals in the domestic violence field in those days I was trying to grapple with what to do about safety, about boundaries, about whether to talk to him at all - the advice I got was what Dr. Carter talks about in this video, with some extra precautions). Some notes on Dr. Carter's video and his quotes follow. The italics were passages that I thought were important to pay special attention to, and important to think deeply about, to "keep on track" so as not to get into cognitive dissonance about abusers and abusive acts:
... "Sometimes the further you get into this relationship, you realize 'This isn't just a disappointing relationship; it's become dangerous' ...
... "There are three different characteristics that I want you to be aware of, that if seen in combination with one another, can indicate that that person, is indeed, a dangerous person, someone you need to stay away from, to have as little or 'no contact' with as possible." ...
* NUMBER ONE: being a complete phony
* NUMBER TWO: having pervasive anger issues
* NUMBER THREE: operating with a strong calloused nature (quotations with all three)
he expounds on the three
1st: phony:
... "They adapt to chameleon-like responses ... so that they can score wins. They think of relationships as being competitions. They are deathly afraid of being on the losing end." ...
... "They don't just look at you as someone who they can share with authentically, but they look at you as someone they need to manipulate. They can't be honest about who they are ... they are going to have low self disclosure and they are going to have a low appreciation of who you are ... If they are friendly or if they are helpful, it's a ploy. It's part of their calculated scheme to stay in the top position.
2nd: pervasive anger:
... "It takes very little to set them off. I have had so many people talk to me who have said: 'I just had such a small disagreement', or 'I made a mistake', or 'something happened and we just weren't on the same page, and BOOM! - It took next to nothing to trigger their anger.'
"Once that anger shows up in them, your assertiveness is not an option. Through the years I've taught many anger management workshops and I've written on the topic of anger, and I explain that it's not unusual or wrong to feel angry. It's what you do with it that counts." ...
... "For this kind of narcissist, they consciously choose to humiliate people when they're angry. They consciously choose to put people in their place. It's like 'I'm going to teach you a lesson that you will never forget!'
"They are very overwhelming in their use of anger ...
3rd: calloused:
"This is the one that makes narcissists most dangerous ...
... "They've got a hardened way that they engage with other individuals. Their attitudes are hardened; there's an 'I couldn't care less' notion that they bring to other individuals ... They have virtually no appreciation or understanding of love. Love can create so much good will, but it's like 'I don't need good will.' Instead they go more towards the characteristics that make them a bully ... They become hardened or impervious to the pain that they inflict upon others. Have you ever had that happen to you? - where you are over there pleading your case, and explaining ... and you just feel there is this darkened attitude inside of this person, where it's like 'Am I talking to a person who has some evil going on? There's something very, very wrong here.' And their response is: 'I don't care.' Or they have no response, no remorse. Being tough is considered a badge of honor ... They like the idea that they have created an intimidating presence ..."
... "These three ingredients in combination with each other ... means you're up against something that's very dangerous ... These people with these three ingredients, they aren't reasonable ... and you're going to have to recognize that: 'I'm not going to have a loving, and a caring, and a collaborative relationship." ... Counseling does next to 'no good.' ... The one thing that's going to work with these individuals, if anything works at all, are consequences." ...
And he wraps it up suggesting legal help, counseling, law enforcement help, boundaries, and so on.
Next up: another Dr. Les Carter video on malignant narcissism: 8 Characteristics of a Malignant Narcissist
My notes with what he says in is in quotation marks. Synopses will not be in quotation marks. Again, I have underlined passages that I believe have to be considered with more weight:
He talks about Eric Fromm from the 1960s who came up with the term Malignant Narcissism to describe narcissists who have gone too far.
Some of the things attributed to run-of-the-mill narcissism, and then what differentiates them from the malignant narcissists afterward:
... "Narcissists have to be in control ...
... "They have low levels of empathy.
"They have a strong sense of entitlement: 'This is what I want. This is what I need and you owe it to me.'
"They are very exploitive and manipulative ...
... "Narcissists honestly believe they are superior. And they believe they are in the superior position. They look at you from their high perches or perch.
"They are pathologically defensive. They don't feel they need input ... Part of that is their creation of a false self. They've convinced themselves that they are so much more different and unique than everyone else that if anyone's opinions that differ from them - (you) can't be different, at least in their mind.
"They operate with alternative realities. They make up their truth ... as they go along to suit whatever their whims, needs of the moment may be. ...
... "narcissist's have a temporary ability to create a favorable false impression.
"So those are the basics when we're looking at the subject of narcissism.
"Now add the word 'malignant' to it and you get a pretty bad combination. In fact, Eric Fromm goes so far as to say that these people have crossed the line into the world of evil. Beneath their narcissism is an extra layer of mean-ness. They have an element of sociopathy, the 'Antisocial Personality'.
"They don't have a well-developed conscience at all, and as a result, morality to them is what ever they need it to be in the moment, or they don't think about it at all. They have no willingness to appeal to an authority - they are the authority. So no authority has any sway over them. They don't want any accountability and they'll shun any kind of accountability ... They can go into their space of ruthlessness rather easily. They are impervious to the pain they generate. ... If you feel discomfort by being in their presence, or some interaction you've had, in their minds, 'Well first, you caused it. Second, you probably deserve it anyway.' They don't care. There's just such a low sense of consciousness and contentiousness about how they impact other individuals.
"When we think of narcissists, very commonly we know that they tend to play 'the victim's role' pretty easily. The malignant narcissist will take it even further, and it's like they have a pretty developed sense of paranoia. It's like 'You people out there - I know you're jealous of me. I know that you think I'm so good that you want to bring me down, but I got news for you. That's not going to happen!' And so they are watching for any kind of sign that you may be against them, or that you may want to come and bring them down, and so they want to jump on that before you have a chance to do things, which means that their control is just an uber need for control.
"When we say that narcissists are entitled, the malignant narcissist is entitled ALL THE TIME. They have no sense of servitude. Or helpfulness. Or tenderness. It's like, 'I don't need to do that.' They just want people to cater to them ...
"They have a very low level of guilt, sometimes to the point of zero. Sometimes you'll hear them say, 'I don't need forgiveness' because they ascribe to almost a God-like nature to their own selves. And they are truly unable to see their own short-comings. If there is a short-coming between you and them, it's always going to be you. And when we're talking about the malignant narcissist, we're talking bad news. These people with no conscience, they have no need to engage in an uplifting way at all. You're just going to be someone they can use. And when they are finished with you, they are going to toss you off to the side like you're some sort of rotten meat, and then they'll just move on to the next victim.
"So knowing this, you need to keep a very low level of personal connection with these people. They don't know how to do relationships well at all. They don't understand the nature of love what-so-ever. You want to have very strong boundaries with them because they'll want to do nothing more than step in and tell you who you need to be, and how you need to live your life, and what your priorities are, and if you don't fit with the program, they'll just make you feel miserable. ...
"That being the case, make no effort to reform them. They're not going to be reformed. Instead, at your very first opportunity, get away from them. These folks are bad news ...
... "Once you see it, you can say 'I get it. I need to do much better things with my life. I'm moving on."
"One last thought: When you see people of this nature and realize this is deeply imbedded, I'm hoping it motivates you to be the better alternative. These are truly troubled souls and there's a deep, deep history as to how they got there ... But they're not going to change, so I'm hoping at the very least, that you can look at them and recognize, "I can do better. I will do better, but I need to do it away from their presence entirely, if possible.'"
My notes on what he has to say (his exact words are in quotation marks):
1. The Narcissist Killing Your Spirit
"Your beliefs, preferences, your emotional responses, hobbies, interests, your connections with people, your professions - the narcissist can come along and say, 'I don't like any of that. I think you're stupid; I think your emotions are terrible; your beliefs don't make sense. Why do you have the preferences that you have? I don't want to connect with your connections' - and they kind of give you the impression that being you is just not reasonable."
"If you hear those messages often enough, do you find yourself thinking: 'I feel like a shell of a person.'
2. Ongoing Isolation or Alienation
"There are going to be times when the narcissist makes it very uncomfortable for you to engage with the people you know and love. One of the characteristics of narcissistic abuse is that they try to take you to a place of isolation. When that is something that is on-going, you know you are at a bad place."
3. Constant Haranguing
"Many times a narcissist will have a deep history of ridiculing you, or harassing you, or mocking you, or saying harsh and critical words towards you. They dislike your interests and they make fun of your interests. And they make fun of your family and friends. 'Oh, you think you are so special!' and just lots of sarcasm. Are you on the receiving end of haranguing communication? That implies a high level of disdain and superiority that the narcissist feels towards you."
4. Contempt
"Many times when you've been in the presence of a narcissist, you realize they don't just disagree with you, and they don't just dislike some of the things you prefer, they have a sense of disgust towards you. It takes that sense of condescension and holds you in such low regard that you almost wonder, 'Do you hate me?' ... And basically through contempt, a narcissist may be implying, 'You are so beneath me!'"
5. Divided Loyalties
"Now obviously when you're in a relationship with a narcissist, one of the things you want is to have a feeling of connectedness, and loyalty, and shared responsibility (what ever the relationship may imply), but then you realize the narcissist doesn't share the same loyalties. Maybe that person is loyal to their alcohol and that's all they really care about ... It could be that there's an extramarital affair. Obviously that's going to be something that's very difficult. They can have other co-dependent attachments to other individuals that supersede their attachments to you.
6. Ongoing Keeping of Secrets
"Trust is lost. You may have heard the old saying that your relationships are only as healthy as the secrets allow you to be. And there can be times when that highly narcissistic person may have hidden abuses with money, or maybe they haven't paid their taxes properly, or they refused to be accountable time-wise, and they don't want you to know what they're doing and when they're doing it. I mentioned a minute ago that there can be an extra-marital affair, or there's just a general sense of phoniness that they operate with. There's a secretiveness that's there that is pervasive and on-going.
7. Imbalance of Power and Control
"... 'The best way for me to be in control is for me to stop trying to be so in control.'
"I want my influence to be such that goodness, and decency, and honor - those kinds of characteristics - is what holds us together, and it is not a dictator's kind of mindset. With narcissists, though, they are all about control, and so they can come on in such an over-powering way - haranguing, and 'You will do things MY way', black and white kind of thinking, lack of equality, lack of regard for you, that it's like, 'We have a huge imbalance here!'. This person wants all control, and all submission from you, and when it's that persistent and on-going, then again, we have a very difficult situation."
"One of the primary characteristics of narcissism is a lack of empathy. When we have good communication it needs to be a two-way street. An ultimate goal of communication is the willingness to hear one another ... Narcissists? 'Nope, ... I'm not hearing; I'm telling.' They want it to be a one way kind of a thing ... Listening is held in low regard."
"There are times when the narcissist can say, 'I don't want to have anything to do with you.' They shut you out, make themselves terribly unavailable, sometimes just emotionally, other times physically. They just won't open up. There's a very tight wall of defense. There's a stubborn withdrawal, and the withdrawal typically has a sense of punishment to it."
10. Varying Forms of Abuse
"Now obviously if there's physical abuse, then that's something that's extremely negative and extremely detrimental. Sexual abuse: whether it is towards you or towards other individuals. If there's verbal abuse, and emotional abuse - it's like 'At some point I've got to stand up for my own self respect, and this is not part of the equation.'"
Final Thoughts:
"So there we have it: we have ten different indicators that we need to move on away from the narcissist, and obviously if you have multiples of these ten, then that just adds to it all the more. I want you to remember a mantra I hold on to ... 'Dignity, Respect, Civility'. ... Standing for those ingredients adds to you. You want the person you are engaging with to say: 'I agree with all of that.' ... but when that narcissistic individual with their attitudes, behaviors and treatments of you, it's like, 'None of that DRC (Dignity, Respect and Civility) is for me.'"...
by psychologist, Dr. Les Carter for "Surviving Narcissism":
Sadistic Narcissists:
by Dr. Ramani Durvasula:
Sadistic Personality Traits
by Dr. Todd Grande:
by Lisa Romano:
Malignant narcissism - Wikipedia
Unpacking Malignant Narcissism - by Crystal Raypole, medically reviewed by Timothy J. Legg, Ph.D., Psy.D. for Healthline
Recommended: Malignant Narcissist: Traits, Signs, Causes, & How to Deal With One - by Hailey Shafir LPCS, LCAS, CCS, reviewed by Benjamin Troy, MD for Choosing Therapy
What Drives Sadists' Aggression? (Sadists turn others' suffering into their own satisfaction.) - by David S. Chester Ph.D. for Psychology Today
excerpt:
Sadists walk among us, and they are prone to being harmful to others. Such sadistic aggression appears to be driven by the pleasure of the act, is contingent on whether their victim is seen to suffer, and ultimately backfires, leaving sadists feeling worse than when they started.
From psychopaths to ‘everyday sadists’: why do humans harm the harmless? - by Simon McCarthy-Jones, Associate Professor in Clinical Psychology and Neuropsychology, Trinity College Dublin for The Conversation
Energy Vampires: Emotional Sadism and the Narcissistic Relationship - by Dr. Roberta Cone for Straight Talk Counseling
Sadistic Personality Disorder: The Cleveland Tragedy - by Allan Schwartz, LCSW, Ph.D. for Mental Health.net
Evil: Inside Human Violence and Cruelty - by Roy F. Baumeister Ph.D., and forward by Aaron Beck (published by Holt, Henry & Company, Inc.)
The Narcissist as Sadist - from the administrators of Healthy Place
Sadism Test: Are You Sadistic? This 100% Honest Quiz Reveals - Quiz Expo
Sibling Sadists Versus Schoolyard Bullies - by Jeanne Safer Ph.D. for Psychology Today
excerpt:
Very few of my patients have escaped unscathed from their parents’ failure to protect them from harm. Many tell me they were actually blamed for their siblings’ attacks, or accused of overreacting. Girls can be every bit as vicious as boys, and age differences in either direction don’t matter. Here are a few of the outrages they suffered:
* A girl of five was set on fire by her brother, who was three years older. When she told her parents, their only response was to make sure that there were no matches in the house thereafter, and to encourage her to spend time with him because he was friendless.
* A boy of twelve was kicked in the head by his fourteen-year-old brother. His jaw was broken and he suffered a concussion. Their mother had no reaction whatsoever.
Scientists developed this 9-question test to measure how sadistic someone is - by Rafi Letzter for Business Insider
The Los Zetas Drug Cartel - Sadism as an Instrument of Cartel Warfare in Mexico and Central America - by George W. Grayson, Professor of Government Emeritus at the College of William & Mary (Amazon Kindle)
Sadism and Masochism - The Psychology of Hatred and Cruelty - Vol. I. - by by Wilhelm Stekel, psychoanalyst (published by Kolthoff Press)
Sadism and Masochism - The Psychology of Hatred - Vol. 2 - by Wilhelm Stekel, psychoanalyst (published by Kolthoff Press)
Dark Psychology: The Psychological Tactics They Use to Manipulate and Deceive You (Social Intelligence Training) - by Andy Gardner (Kindle)
Gaslighting: How to Recognize Manipulation and Narcissistic Abuse and Set Boundaries So You Can Break Free and Recover from an Emotionally Abusive Relationship (Social Intelligence Training) - by Andy Gardner (Kindle)
The Disturbing Link Between Narcissism and Sadism (What drives a troubling narcissistic subtype, and how to recognize it.) - by Seth Meyers for Psychology Today
excerpt:
Many narcissists are difficult to get along with, have a grandiose sense of self, and won't take accountability for their actions, but they don't have a driving need to punish others. I have found that the sadistic narcissist has lower self-esteem than the non-sadistic narcissist, even though neither truly has high self-esteem. The most important point to understand is that the drive to punish or upset others on a regular basis typically stems from an individual having been on the receiving end of confusing, mind-twisting behavior from a parent early in life.
My hope is that readers can avoid relationships with narcissists, especially those with a sadistic streak. Those who have encountered a severe narcissist and gotten too close know how confusing and frustrating the experience can be. And I sincerely hope that anyone currently connected to a sadistic narcissist—whether someone at work or in their social life—can continue to educate themselves about narcissism and sadism to better protect themselves, and detach as quickly as possible.
Manifestations of sexual sadism in child sexual assault and the associated victim, offender, and offense characteristics: A latent class analysis - by Kylie Reale, Julien Chopin, Alexandre Gauthier, and Eric Beauregard for Crimrxiv (professional paper)
excerpt:
It is well-documented in the extant literature that child sexual abusers are a heterogeneous population (see Lim et al., 2021 for a review). Although contact sexual offending against a child, particularly of a violent nature, remains less common than other forms of child sexual abuse (CSA) (Lim et al., 2021), the widespread harm that these types of crimes can cause to the victim (e.g., physical, medical, psychological, and social), as well as the enormous cost to society, is unequivocal (Hall & Hall, 2007; Fang et al., 2012). Sexual sadism represents the most extreme form of sexual violence, involving acts such as coercion, torture, humiliation, and the infliction of pain for sexual pleasure (Chopin & Beauregard, 2022; Dietz et al., 1990; Nitschke et al., 2013; Longpré et al., 2018). The ability to identify whether a sexual crime against a child involves sexual sadism is crucial from not only an intervention standpoint but also for public safety. For example, studies have shown that there is an association between sexual sadism and the most serious crimes, such as sexual homicide (e.g., Brittain, 1970; Healey et al., 2013; Mokros, 2018; Ressler et al., 1986; Ressler et al., 1988). Moreover, deviant sexual fantasies, which are central to the diagnosis of sexual sadism (5th ed.; DSM-5; American Psychiatric Association, 2013), are a risk factor for sexual reoffending (Brankey et al., 2021) and sexual preoccupation (Hanson et al., 2007).
Dealing With A Sadistic Narcissist – A Look Inside The Mind Of A Narcissist - by psychologist Alexander Burgemeester for The Narcissistic Life
excerpt:
The narcissist must always “win” and they will use any means at their disposal to do so, including torture or abuse.
They don’t think twice about causing pain in order to win.
Narcissists always cause psychological pain and often physical pain as well. Usually those who are victimized the most are the closest and the most vulnerable: their partner or spouse, their children, siblings, and intimate friends.
The sadistic narcissist gets pleasure and Narcissistic Supply from inflicting psychological and physical pain. ...
Recommended: 10 Sadistic Cat-and-Mouse Games Narcissists And Psychopaths Play - by Shahida Arabi for Thought Catalog
excerpt (note: I included 1., but there are 9 more):
... Researchers note that sadism is a key feature of malignant narcissism (narcissism with antisocial traits). Interestingly, other studies report that individuals high in narcissistic and psychopathic traits tend to experience positive emotions when they view sad faces. Neuroscience research also indicates that when psychopathic individuals imagine others enduring pain, there is increased activation in areas of the brain related to anticipation of reward and decreased activation in areas related to empathy. Psychologists have suggested that this may mean that psychopaths not only lack empathy for the pain of others, but that they also take sadistic pleasure in witnessing or even causing the pain and distress of others.
... 1. They manufacture chaos by frequently pushing your trigger buttons to exhaust and disorient you so you’re less able to fight back.
Narcissists and psychopaths know exactly which trigger buttons to push – and that’s usually because they installed them in the first place. They know exactly what to mention and how to act in order to provoke your emotions and depict you as “crazy” when you do. During the abuse cycle, they implant insecurities in you and watch you unravel as you fixate on them. They will do this so chronically that you are constantly scrambling to defend, react, and overexplain yourself and become too exhausted to detach from the relationship. This is their equivalent of playing with their “food” or prey and injuring it immensely before devouring it.
By manufacturing chaos by provoking you, they take up your mental resources so you are only focused on them and the relationship and have less time for yourself, your goals, your healing, and your self-care. Such debilitating tactics are similar to the interrogation tactics used on prisoners of war. The victim has less time to recover from the abuse when it is ongoing, frequent or impactful, so they go to the source of pain itself in an attempt to survive the abuse. This is part of the powerful trauma bond you develop to your abuser as a survival mechanism. You seek comfort from your abuser due to their “hurt-and-rescue” methods – where they deliberately wound you, only to come to the rescue with their comfort and fake apologies and promises to never do it again, only to start the cycle once more. This uncertainty and devaluation keeps you perpetually off-kilter and dependent on their validation; much like a cat stalks its prey and swats at it while it runs around trying to avoid being eaten, you’re constantly walking on eggshells, negotiating your self-respect and basic needs with the predator to avoid being swallowed whole.
Recommended: What is Sadistic Parenting? - by Christine Hammond, MS, LMHC, medically reviewed by Scientific Advisory Board for Psych Central
Sadistic Narcissists Might Exploit Submissive Dependence (The vulnerability of approval-seeking, separation anxiety, and submission.) - by Caroline Kamau, Ph.D., reviewed by Davia Sills for Psychology Today
What Is Sexual Sadism? (The most heinous serial killers.) - by Steven Lampley for Psychology Today
excerpt:
One of the most heinous serial killers is the sexually sadistic serial killer. The article, “Psychopathic Sexual Sadists: The Psychology and Psychodynamics of Serial Killers,” by Vernon J. Geberth, M.S., M.P.S., former Commander of Bronx Homicide, references the DSM-IV: “Psychopathic sexual sadists, based on the objective criteria of DSM-IV are extremely dangerous to the well-being of a civilized society.”
What is sexual sadism? Lunde, in 1976, defined sexual sadism as “a deviation characterized by torture and/or killing and mutilation of other persons to achieve sexual gratification.”
According to M. J. MacCulloch, the sexually sadistic thoughts of rape bondage, sodomy, torture, and murder began around 16 years of age combined with masturbation and progressing in frequency when the sadistic element was added to the fantasies. ...
From psychopaths to ‘everyday sadists’: why do humans harm the harmless? - by By Simon McCarthy-Jones, Trinity College Dublin, the University of Dublin
excerpt:
... We understand if someone lashes out in retaliation or self-defence. But when someone harms the harmless, we ask: “How could you?”
Humans typically do things to get pleasure or avoid pain. For most of us, hurting others causes us to feel their pain. And we don’t like this feeling. This suggests two reasons people may harm the harmless – either they don’t feel the others’ pain or they enjoy feeling the others’ pain. ...
... The popular imagination associates sadism with torturers and murderers. Yet there is also the less extreme, but more widespread, phenomenon of everyday sadism.
Everyday sadists get pleasure from hurting others or watching their suffering. They are likely to enjoy gory films, find fights exciting and torture interesting. They are rare, but not rare enough. Around 6% of undergraduate students admit getting pleasure from hurting others. ...
... We now know the potentially appalling long-term effects of suffering cruelty from others, including damage to both physical and mental health. The benefits of being compassionate towards oneself, rather than treating oneself cruelly, are also increasingly recognised.
And the idea that we must suffer to grow is questionable. Positive life events, such as falling in love, having children and achieving cherished goals can lead to growth.
Teaching through cruelty invites abuses of power and selfish sadism. Yet Buddhism offers an alternative – wrathful compassion. Here, we act from love to confront others to protect them from their greed, hatred and fear. Life can be cruel, truth can be cruel, but we can choose not to be.
Do Sadists Feel Sad After Inflicting Pain? UK Psychology Grad Reveals Intriguing Results - by Lidsay Piercy for College of Arts and Sciences (Psychology), University of Kentucky
excerpt:
... As expected, those with a history of aggression showed more pleasure in causing harm to others. However, in a shocking result, their overall mood went down afterwards. Contrary to popular belief, the aggressive behavior ultimately brought emotional pain — leaving them feeling worse than before.
"We expected that sadists would feel more pleasure and less pain after aggression, but we found the opposite. Sadistic individuals actually reported greater negative emotion after the aggressive act, suggesting that aggression feels good in the moment but that this pleasure quickly fades and is replaced by pain."
Overall, the results provide credible evidence that sadists find pleasure in harming others, but once they believe their victims are no longer suffering the pleasure fades.
So, what can be done with this revelation?
Having a better understanding of emotions that drive sadistic aggression could help with intervention. By changing how a sadist perceives the harm they inflict — or by helping the sadist understand how it will harm them — Chester suspects, the aggression cycle could be broken. ...
Energy Vampires: Emotional Sadism and the Narcissistic Relationship - by Dr. Roberta Cone for Straight Talk Counseling (prevention services, wellness center)
excerpt:
Narcissists are sadistic in their rejection of other people and feelings of superiority. ...
... The narcissist’s need for constant attention and caretaking takes center stage as the desires of others are neglected and denied. As a relationship progresses, the narcissist will ignore you in social settings and not compliment you on anything nor celebrate your accomplishments. They genuinely don’t care about your needs and are experts at pretending they do until they gain control. Then the self-involved energy vampire punishes you for having desires because they demand that you focus all of your attention and energy on them. They suck the life force and joy out of everyone they can take hostage. They prefer your admiration and awe, but eventually, their behavior destroys any feelings of love, and they will then settle for negative attention. This makes the emotional sadist feel all-powerful and capable of any cruelty.
The narcissist slowly progresses from minimal emotional assaults to intentionally deliberate attacks. Distancing and aloofness are their favorite weapons. It doesn’t matter to them if you cry because they are not affected and do not care. They feel nothing and are not concerned about what you are feeling. ...
... The emotionally sadistic narcissist derives enjoyment from hurting someone. More than physical abuse, they are experts at manipulating people’s emotions until they feel broken. They intimidate their partners to prevent them from expressing criticism or disapproval of their actions and decisions. Partners and children quickly learn the triggers for temper and rage attacks that make the narcissist argumentative and hostile. Their extreme reactions are a punishment for what they perceive as their partner’s lack of consideration and sensitivity. The narcissist blames their partner for their behavior, accuses them of provoking the outbursts, and believes the partner deserves punishment for their misbehavior. Apologies, unless accompanied by requests for forgiveness, are not enough.
The fuel of the narcissist’s rage is expended mainly on bizarre verbal accusations directed at the made-up and imaginary intentions of the victim. If you question the appropriateness of the behavior, no longer mirroring admiration and submissiveness, this causes them to doubt their illusory self-esteem. You are then subjected to a period of terror where they try to hurt you for not recognizing their entitlement to your utter obedience. You will be belittled and humiliated with displays of aggression and emotional violence in countless forms. Their behavior changes from putting you on a pedestal to ultimately devaluing you as a person. The narcissist is now repulsed by you and deems you useless. These extreme contrasts between seeing you as flawless to completely unworthy make long-term relationships with the narcissist all but impossible. ...
Borderline Personality Disorder: An Exploratory Study - by Mark F Lenzenweger, John F Clarkin, Eve Caligor, Nicole M Cain, and Otto F Kernberg for National Library of Medicine (PubMed professional research paper)
Pathological narcissism: An analysis of interpersonal dysfunction within intimate relationships - by Nicholas J S Day 1, Michelle L Townsend 1, Brin F S Grenyer 1 for National Library of Medicine (PubMed professional research paper)
An fMRI study of affective perspective taking in individuals with psychopathy: imagining another in pain does not evoke empathy - by Jean Decety, Chenyi Chen, Carla Harenski and Kent A. Kiehl for Frontiers in Human Neuroscience and National Library of Medicine (PubMed professional research paper)
The link between narcissism and aggression - by Sophie L. Kjærvik and Brad J. Bushman for the American Psychological Association (professional article)
What is Sadistic Parenting? - by Christine Hammond, MS, LMHC for Psych Central
excerpt:
... Sadistic parenting is the worse form of abuse for a child because the parent gets pleasure out of harming the child not caring for them. A parent is supposed to love, nurture, guide, and cherish their child, not hate, torture, misdirect, and throw them away. ...
The Opposite of Schadenfreude Is Freudenfreude. Here’s How to Cultivate It. (The joy we derive from others’ success comes with many benefits.) - by Juli Fraga for The Atlantic
RECOMMENDED: Dealing With Everyday Sadists and Other "Dark Personalities" (Five important tips for protecting yourself from those who would do you harm.) - by Traci Stein Ph.D., MPH for Psychology Today
excerpt:
There are several personality types that are more likely to harm another than the average person would. Sadists possess an intrinsic motivation to inflict suffering on innocent others, even when this comes at a personal cost. This is because, for sadistic personalities, cruelty is pleasurable, generally exciting, and can be sexually stimulating.
In a recent study, Buckels and colleagues examined examples of everyday sadism as part of what they refer to as the “Dark Tetrad,” sadism plus the original members of the “Dark Triad”—psychopathy, narcissism, and Machiavellianism. ...
... In a second related study, those high in sadism, psychopathy, and/or narcissism, as well as those low in empathy and perspective-taking, were willing to aggress against an innocent person when aggression was easy. Only sadists increased the intensity of their attack once they realized the person would not fight back, however. Furthermore, sadists, unlike the other "dark personalities," were the only ones willing to expend additional time and energy (in this case, first completing a boring task) in order to have the opportunity to hurt an innocent person.
Previous research has found that although psychopaths have no qualms about hurting others, they are more likely to do so when it serves a specific purpose. Narcissists are less likely to aggress upon another unless their ego is threatened. Machiavellians will usually aggress upon others only if there are sufficient perceived benefits and the risk to themselves is acceptably low. ...
... Common examples of everyday sadism include:
* Intentionally repeating secrets that the ES promised to keep private
* Portraying someone in a false or unflattering light in an effort to damage their reputation
* Working to bring about someone’s being fired or otherwise jeopardize their job in the absence of cause
* Seeking to ruin another person's relationship
* Theft of property—physical, financial, or intellectual
* Deliberately marginalizing a coworker, classmate, or family member, or student
* Cyber or other bullying
(My note: she talks about how to look at these situations, how to guard yourself and what steps you can take to avoid being the target of a sadist)
The Sadistic Worldview - by Michael Schreiner for Evolution Counseling
excerpt:
The sadist secretly or openly respects any and all entities associated with power and secretly or openly denigrates any and all entities associated with weakness. To the sadist psychological, emotional, or material invulnerability equal power and psychological, emotional, or material vulnerability equal weakness.
While these polar attitudes towards power and weakness sound simple enough they create confusing and contradictory feelings within the psyche of the sadist since honoring that which is felt to be more powerful makes the sadist feel weak and vulnerable by comparison, turning the sadist into the despised entity. And on the other side of the coin that which is associated with weakness, although loathed, denigrated, thought to be superfluous, is also absolutely necessary to have around in order to maintain or regain that wanted sense of power and invulnerability
It turns out that all sadists are, unbeknownst to them, actually masochists ...
Sadism in Sadistic and Narcissistic Personality Disorders - by Sam Vaknin, Department of Psychology, Southern Federal University, Geneva, Switzerland
excerpt:
... Sadists are masters of abuse by proxy and ambient abuse.
They terrorize and intimidate even their nearest and dearest
into doing their bidding. They create an aura and atmosphere of
unmitigated yet diffuse dread and consternation. This they
achieve by promulgating complex "rules of the house" that
restrict the autonomy of their dependants (spouses, children,
employees, patients, clients, etc.). They have the final word and
are the ultimate law. They must be obeyed, no matter how
arbitrary and senseless are their rulings and decisions.
Siblings: Retaliation or Sadistic Pleasure - PARENTING, PARENTING ADVICE by Debra Kessler, Psy.D. for Psych Alive
excerpt:
... Another factor that may feed the sadistic and retaliatory behavior between siblings is when one of the siblings is very impulsive, demanding and intense and/or provocative. If one of the children, Johnny or Suzie, has difficulty managing their feelings and calming down, conflict management is significantly hampered. Similarly, if Suzie or Johnny can’t understand that the other person has rights and feelings, repair is also challenged. Finally, if a parent has the perspective that the hurtful behavior was “deserved” (ie: Suzie deserved to have her toy broken because she is “annoying” her brother or Johnny deserved to be called a name because he was cussing) the parents are inadvertently teaching that retaliation and sadistic pleasure are condoned ways of dealing with others who hurt our feelings or violate our rights. Clearly in these types of situations it is important for the parent to address Suzie or Johnny’s provocative behavior so the siblings does not take matters into their own hands. ...
Sexual Sadism and Trauma in Psychopathy - by Theodoros Papagathonikou for Queen Mary University of London (professional paper)
excerpt:
Psychopathy and sexual sadism are two forensic mental health disorders that have been associated at a theoretical and a clinical level. Empirical research has shown that both constructs are linked to various forms of violence, ranged from non-sexual violence to sexual offending and sexual homicides. Furthermore, psychopathic and sadistic patients share several common characteristics, such as emotional detachment from the suffering of the others, and they have been thus far considered to be untreatable, dangerous and at very high risk of reoffending.
Sadistic Killers (The most scary and dangerous of all killers are often the most easy to profile.) - by Deborah Schurman-Kauflin Ph.D. for Psychology Today
excerpt:
A sadist will inflict pain on someone in order to see a terrified victim’s reaction. The tears streaming down the victim’s face, the terror in the eyes, and the pleading for mercy are reactions that arouse sadists. Tormenting a victim is a way for sadists to bolster their egos and self worth. Having complete control over a helpless person makes them God-like in their own twisted worlds. ...
... The worst types of sadists are the sadistic serial killers. They spend their entire lives fantasizing about and creating new ways to make a person suffer. As many may look forward to Easter because of the family get together and the beauty of spring, sadistic serial predators look forward to their next kill. They live for causing damage and getting away with it. When investigators are given cases where the victims are tortured to death, they instantly know that a great challenge is before them. Why? Because sexually sadistic predators are meticulous, emotionally flat perfectionists who go to great lengths to commit their crimes. They plan their offenses, so much so, that when they do act out, it is very difficult to determine the age of the killer. What I mean by this is that sexually sadistic criminals rehearse and plan crimes to a degree that make it appear as if a longtime killer has committed the crimes.
What is frightening is that sadistic predators never stop thinking about how to make others suffer. New torture methods are continually sought out and planned.
Comparing indicators of sexual sadism as predictors of recidivism among adult male sexual offenders. - by Kingston, Drew A. Seto, Michael C. Firestone, Philip Bradford, John M. for American Psychological Association (professional paper)
The Dark Reflection of Sadism within the Brilliance of the Narcissistic Persona - by Xanya Sofra for City University, London, UK. and New School for Social Research, New York, USA. (professional paper)
Are You Dating an Emotional Sadist? (Spotting the red flags of sadistic personality) - Wendy L. Patrick, J.D., Ph.D. for Psychology Today
excerpt:
Spotting Social Sadism
As sadists form relationships, they likely put their best foot forward, showcasing positive traits. But as you get to know them better, research indicates there are in fact red flags that might suggest sadistic tendencies.
Paulhus et al. note that measures used to predict “everyday sadism” include Internet trolling or bullying, cyberstalking, enjoying violent video games, weapon fascination, toxic leadership, and taking revenge. They describe sadism’s “distinctive ingredient” as the reward value, satisfied through either participating in or viewing, cruelty.
What Drives Sadists' Aggression? (Sadists turn others' suffering into their own satisfaction.) - by David S. Chester Ph.D. for Psychology Today
Child Physical and Sexual Abuse: The Roles of Sadism and Sexuality - by A Criville for the U.S. Department of Justice
Childhood abuse and sadomasochism: New insights - by M. Abrams, A. Chronos, and M. Milisavljevic Grdinic for Science Direct (professional paper)
excerpt:
... Bem and Money's models provide an explanation for the greater prevalence of sexual sadism and masochism in men. Specifically, male arousal cues (i.e., their lovemap) are far more malleable due their greater inclination to develop visual arousal cues which can be external or imaginal. In contrast, most females are not essentially visually aroused, their process of learning arousal cues, including masochistic ones is different. In short, male sexuality is predicated upon learning how to be appropriately aroused and female sexuality is predicated upon learning to select the appropriate aroused male. It follows that the gender difference in the development of arousal is the basis for the marked difference in the prevalence in paraphilias in men and women. Among the latter, a paraphilia like masochism would require far greater or prolonged disturbance during the development of sexual identity (Bem, 1996, Bem, 2000, Money, 1988). ...
... Women who have experienced early life sexual abuse have a high rate of revictimization in adulthood. In addition, they tend to suffer from symptoms such as anxiety, fearfulness and suicidality (Beitchman et al., 1992, Messman-Moore et al., 2000). ...
The untreatable family - by DP Jones for National Library of Medicine (professional paper)
excerpt:
The untreatable family is defined as one in which it is unsafe to permit an abused child to live. Despite the fact that many families turn out to be resistive to treatment, they have received very little attention. In the field of physical abuse, 16-60% of parents reabuse their children following the initial incident. Sexual reabuse is estimated to occur in 16% of cases. Treatment of abusive families also aims to alter family functioning. From studies in physical abuse we find 20-87% of families are unchanged or worse at the end of treatment. In sexual abuse the equivalent figures are 16-38%. Parental factors associated with a poor outcome include parental history of severe childhood abuse, persistent denial of abusive behavior, refusal to accept help, severe personality disorder, mental handicap complicated by personality disorder, parental psychosis with delusions involving the child, and alcohol/drug abuse. Parents lack empathy for their child and fail to see the child's needs as separate from their own. Severe forms of abuse (fractures, burns, scalds, premeditated infliction of pain, vaginal intercourse or sexual sadism) are more likely to prove untreatable. Munchausen by proxy, nonaccidental poisoning, and severe forms of nonorganic failure to thrive are similarly resistant. An early recognition of untreatability may help to reduce burnout by diverting precious resources from the untreatable to the families for whom there is relatively more hope.
Unpacking Malignant Narcissism - by Crystal Raypole, medically reviewed by Timothy J. Legg, PhD, PsyD for Healthline
Recommended: The narcissistic family’s scapegoat: Survival and Recovery - by psychotherapist, Jay Reid for his own website.
excerpt:
... Sometimes a client comes into therapy telling horrific stories of the chronic and systematic abuse. They recount how their caregivers criticized, humiliated, hurt, degraded and derided them at every opportunity. What’s made this suffering most destructive is the abuser’s conviction that it was what the child deserved. There is no sense of recrimination, accountability, nor guilt for what they put this child through. Rather there is an inscrutable self-righteousness in their cruel attitudes and behavior towards the victim. Without fail, there is also a concerted effort to keep this abuse private from the world at large. The adult child recalls seeing the abusive caregiver charm people outside the home and keep their demonic cruelty behind closed doors. All the better to discredit the victim’s credibility if they ever come forward to report the abuse. Welcome to the world of the narcissistic family’s scapegoat. ...
... A malignant narcissist loves the sense of power in making others suffer. In other words, they harbor sadistic intentions. They are exquisitely envious of those who do not put them first. Envy is an emotion that drives one to want to spoil the good they see because they do not have it. Lastly, they lack empathy for others. They do not see the fact that their child is suffering as a reason to stop their behaviors. ...
Gazing the dusty mirror: Joint effect of narcissism and sadism on workplace incivility via indirect effect of paranoia, antagonism, and emotional intelligence - by Bo Wang, Muhammad Fiaz, Yasir Hayat Mughal, Alina Kiran, Irfan Ullah and Worakamol Wisetsri7 for Frontiers in Psychology (professional paper)
Subclinical sadism: Examining temperamental predispositions and emotional processing - by Leah Thomas and Vincent Egan for Science Direct (professional paper)
Sexual sadism, psychopathy, and recidivism in juvenile sexual murderers - by Wade C. Myers, Heng Choon (Oliver) Chan, Eleanor Justen Vo, and Emily Lazarou for Journal of Investigative Psychology and Offender Profiling
Sexually Motivated Child Abduction Murders: Synthesis of the Literature and Case Illustration - by Kathleen M. Heide and Eric Beauregard, and Wade C. Myers for An International Journal of Evidence-based Research, Policy and Practice, Vol. 4, 2009 - Issue 1
Manifestations of sexual sadism in child sexual assault and the associated victim, offender, and offense characteristics: A latent class analysis - by Kylie S. Reale a, Julien Chopin a b c, Alexandre Gauthier c, Eric Beauregard a for Science Direct (professional paper)
Sadists and narcissists — similarities and differences - by Joanie Bentz, B.S., M.ED, LBS for Love Fraud
excerpt:
Sadists and narcissists — are they the same? Pathological personalities can overlap each other with their complexities and commonalities. Over the years, definitive conclusions as to whether a sadist is a narcissist, and vice-versa, have been lacking and debate has been ongoing. ...
... Sadism was once referred to as Sadistic Personality Disorder (SPD) in the DSM III-TR, but it was removed. Over the years, countless mental health professionals considered this removal a mistake and to this day continue to lobby for its reinstatement. Some continue to treat their patients as if they were formally diagnosed with this disorder.
Although Sadistic Personality Disorder is still considered a legitimate pathological disorder by many health professionals, Unspecified Personality Disorder is now used by mental health professionals in diagnosing someone with sadism. ...
... Richard von Krafft-Ebing coined the term sadism in the late 19th century, and it was defined as “sexual pleasure derived through inflicting pain and suffering on others.” However, with time the definition of sadism evolved to include “nonsexual enjoyment derived from sadistic acts.” ...
Marquis de Sade - Wikipedia
excerpt:
... Sade is best known for his erotic works, which combined philosophical discourse with pornography, depicting sexual fantasies with an emphasis on violence, suffering, anal sex (which he calls sodomy), child rape, crime, and blasphemy against Christianity. Many of the characters in his works are teenagers or adolescents. His work is a depiction of extreme absolute freedom, unrestrained by morality, religion, or law. The words sadism and sadist are derived from his name in reference to the works of fiction he wrote, which portrayed numerous acts of sexual cruelty.
... Sade was a proponent of free public brothels paid for by the state: In order both to prevent crimes in society that are motivated by lust and to reduce the desire to oppress others using one’s own power, Sade recommended public brothels where people can satisfy their wishes to command and be obeyed.
Is Emotional Abuse As Harmful as Physical and/or Sexual Abuse? - by Heather L. Dye for National Library of Medicine (professional paper)
What Are the Effects of Emotional Abuse? - by - by Courtney Telloian, and medically reviewed by Jennifer Litner, PhD, LMFT, CST for Psych Central
Child abuse and other risks of not living with both parents (Author links open overlay panel) - by Martin Daly, Margo Wilson for Science Direct (professional paper)
Some differential attributes of lethal assaults on small children by stepfathers versus genetic fathers - by Martin Daly and Margo I. Wilson for Science Direct (professional paper)
Child abuse-related homicides precipitated by caregiver use of harsh physical punishment - by Rebecca F. Wilson, Tracie O. Afifi, Keming Yuan, Bridget H. Lyons, Beverly L. Fortson, Christal Oliver, Ashley Watson, Shannon Self-Brown for Science Direct (professional paper)
Sibling Sexual Abuse: A Knowledge and Practice Overview - by Peter Yates and Stuart Allardyce (professional paper)
Note: this only covers sexual abuse by a sibling who is still a child
excerpts:
Sibling relationships are likely to entail complex power dynamics that are informed by a range of gender and cultural differences. Older children typically have a wider range of tactics to draw upon, and are more likely to be given authority over younger siblings and be believed by parents.
In the context of abuse, the nature of sibling relationships and the environment in which they develop makes it possible for behaviours to be frequent and unrestrained, and may make it difficult for younger siblings to tell anyone about the abuse or have confidence that they will be believed. ...
... The most common reported pattern of sibling sexual abuse involves an older brother abusing a younger sister, and most of what we know from research relates to this pairing. ...
... The consequences of this are often devastating for the families concerned; for the professionals involved, sibling sexual abuse challenges commonly held conceptions of what children, families and sibling relationships are like, as well as our understanding of what constitutes sexual abuse. The complexity of sibling sexual abuse and the challenges it raises can often lead to confused and confusing responses by the team around the child and the family, with professionals under or overestimating its seriousness, or vacillating between minimal and punitive responses. ...
'Sadistic' abuser Abdul Elahi targeted 2,000 victims online (A "sadistic" paedophile targeted almost 2,000 victims online, blackmailing them into sending him degrading images of themselves and abusing others.) - for the BBC (crime reporting, UK)
excerpt:
Abdul Elahi, of Birmingham, also ran encrypted digital "master classes" to train paedophiles to avoid detection, the National Crime Agency (NCA) said.
At Birmingham Crown Court, he admitted 158 offences against 79 victims.
The NCA said it was "some of the most sickening sexual offending" it had seen and that the scale was "industrial". ...
Child abuse-related homicides precipitated by caregiver use of harsh physical punishment - by Rebecca F. Wilson, Tracie O. Afifi, Keming Yuan, Bridget H. Lyons, Beverly L. Fortson, Christal Oliver, Ashley Watson, Shannon Self-Brown for Science Direct (professional paper)
Chapter Seventeen - Vulnerability to fatal violence: Child sexual abuse victims as homicide participants in Australia - by Amber McKinley for Science Direct (professional paper)
Chapter Twenty-Six - Interventions for sex offenders who target child victims - by Shamala Gopalakrishnan, Yasmin Ahamed, Natasha Lim for Science Direct (professional paper)
The Opposite of Schadenfreude Is Freudenfreude. Here’s How to Cultivate It. (The joy we derive from others’ success comes with many benefits.) - by Juli Fraga for The Atlantic
10 Children Living Amid Feces Were Tortured For 'Sadistic Purpose,' Police Say - by Sasha Ingber for NPR
Happiness After Horror: Girl Traumatized by Sadistic Stepfather - by Gretchen Henderson (published by Author House)
At Anthony Avalos murder trial, siblings testify about alleged family torture - by James Queally for The Los Angeles Times
Infanticide and Sadism in Wuthering Heights - by Wade Thompson for Cambridge University Press (professional paper)
Seven Sadistic Sultans from the Ottoman Empire - History Channel (written version)
excerpt:
The Sibling Slayer - Mehmed III (1595-1603)
Upon Mehmed III becoming sultan he murdered his 19 brothers, who were all children, and over 20 of his sisters. They were all throttled by the traditional royal executioners – servants who could neither hear nor speak.
This sibling slaying was not only traditional but was, until about 1603, enshrined in law. Once a sultan was girded by the Sword of Osman (an enthronement ceremony involving the sword of state) his brothers (and sometimes nephews and uncles, and apparently female relatives too) would all be executed in the name of imperial stability.
Mehmed was a vicious ruler who enjoyed watching women’s breasts burnt off with red-hot irons.
Borderline Personality and Abuse Cycle - by A.J. Mahari and Reviewed by Ryan House, PsyD, Clinical Psychologist
Even dogs react adversely to punishments meant to hurt: As the article, Take It Easy on Your Dog (Punishments such as shock collars may not be doing much good.) by Ula Chrobak for The Atlantic suggests, ... Some evidence also suggests that use of punishment in training can diminish the bond between a dog owner and their canine. ...
