Last time I did an update, I promised the post on hoovering (a very common tactic in the world of narcissism), and yet, it is still not published. I thought other posts I was writing were quite a bit more important and compelling, and that is one reason it got pushed to the "back burner", and the other reason was because I thought it needed the kind of links that my most recent posts have to legitimize the claims I write about.
So I don't think I need to say "publishing a post soon" kinds of statements since I didn't follow through the last time. The basics that people write about when it comes to narcissism I have already written about with the exception of the isolation tactic, arrogance, grandiosity and haughtiness in narcissism, heightened envy and jealousy in narcissists, the shame-rage spiral, bread-crumbing, intermittent reinforcement, some more punishments narcissists are highly likely to use to get their own way, and of course, hoovering.
That's not a lot to finish and those posts are primarily done except links and some graphics. So why can't I just "push through" and publish them?
At the moment I'm way more interested in what family scapegoats have in common (they have a lot in common with one another as it turns out), healing strategies for scapegoats, and what PTSD does to the brain and body, why dissociation can become a big problem for scapegoats and why that can impede healing and human connection even though it is an involuntary trauma response. I'm also interested in "the no contact" trend of Generation Z with their parents.
I'm also busy writing about other issues that I think are more compelling for me to cover in terms of the subject of narcissism: the psychology of their sycophants, common prejudices in narcissists and sycophants, the communication and filtering styles of narcissists, and what to do about the kinds of destructions narcissists wreak on society and on younger generations (is there hope for assimilation, or is the best strategy always "no contact" to protect society and other generations from destruction)?
And then there is the subject of "forgiveness" when it comes to narcissists and their destructions - it happens sometimes even without pressure from others or even pressure from within. It can take some survivors by surprise even. So what is behind that?
And that's why I haven't published these more common traits of narcissism. You can also read them anywhere, on just about any blog on narcissism.
But first some compelling news:
PRESENT STUDIES IN COLLEGE AND UNIVERSITY LABS
ON SCAPEGOATS
AND HOPEFUL METHODOLOGIES FOR HEALING
There are some remarkable studies being performed in universities and college labs to get an understanding of how family scapegoats are being impacted in childhood. These studies are being run by all kinds of specialists in the medical field including neurologists, immunologists, rheumotologists, lymphologists, cardiovascular specialists, and so many others. Naturally psychiatrists, psychologists and trauma therapists are leading these experiments.
What they are finding is that family scapegoats are showing that their autonomic nervous systems are being much more compromised (and destroyed) than originally considered by the mental health community and physicians. While it may not surprise any adult scapegoat, it surprised doctors how impacted these children were.
As of the present day, most adult scapegoats and some child scapegoats are being treated with healing modalities meant for a broad spectrum of traumas from war, accidents, all kinds of child abuse, kidnapping, rape, trafficking, slavery, extreme forms of incarceration, and so on. This is such an array of types of trauma, and unfortunately, using the same forms of treatment for one form of trauma does not necessarily work for another form of trauma in all cases. For now, all of these forms of trauma get the same kinds of therapies.
In America PTSD and CPTSD are still being lumped together as "PTSD" even though the chronic form (CPTSD) shows some dramatic differences from a one-time traumatic event (usually reserved for PTSD). European nations, in contrast with the U.S.A., recognize PTSD and CPTSD as distinct diagnoses formalized by The World Health Organization. Apparently the U.S.A. can't formalize it because too many physicians see it as a severe subset rather than a separate diagnosis.
I'm not sure if that has been bungling research on child abuse victims or not. It's remarkable that studies weren't taking place on what child abuse does to all parts of the physical body of child victims until recent times. There have been a lot of studies about what it does to a child psychologically, and to the brains of children. Then what it did to some of the major organs followed in the 1990s, and very recent studies have unveiled what it does to the immune system.
Certainly Bessel van der Kolk, the leading psychiatrist on trauma, has found that trauma affects the entire body, and his team of trauma experts keep coming out with more and more studies about what trauma does to various parts of the body, even in the first seconds a traumatic event occurs, so those discoveries led other teams to study what has not been discovered yet, even going into specific types of traumatic events, and in this case, scapegoating children.
Anyway, this research is taking place in labs now. And what is more, some studies are not just being done on any child abuse victims; they are being done specifically on scapegoats and for scapegoats, the ones who endure systematic abuse from a parent or caretaker on a regular basis while growing up, and sometimes from their entire family.
What they are finding is that family scapegoats are showing that their autonomic nervous systems are being much more compromised (and destroyed) than originally considered by the mental health community and physicians. While it may not surprise any adult scapegoat, it surprised doctors how impacted these children were.
As of the present day, most adult scapegoats and some child scapegoats are being treated with healing modalities meant for a broad spectrum of traumas from war, accidents, all kinds of child abuse, kidnapping, rape, trafficking, slavery, extreme forms of incarceration, and so on. This is such an array of types of trauma, and unfortunately, using the same forms of treatment for one form of trauma does not necessarily work for another form of trauma in all cases. For now, all of these forms of trauma get the same kinds of therapies.
In America PTSD and CPTSD are still being lumped together as "PTSD" even though the chronic form (CPTSD) shows some dramatic differences from a one-time traumatic event (usually reserved for PTSD). European nations, in contrast with the U.S.A., recognize PTSD and CPTSD as distinct diagnoses formalized by The World Health Organization. Apparently the U.S.A. can't formalize it because too many physicians see it as a severe subset rather than a separate diagnosis.
I'm not sure if that has been bungling research on child abuse victims or not. It's remarkable that studies weren't taking place on what child abuse does to all parts of the physical body of child victims until recent times. There have been a lot of studies about what it does to a child psychologically, and to the brains of children. Then what it did to some of the major organs followed in the 1990s, and very recent studies have unveiled what it does to the immune system.
Certainly Bessel van der Kolk, the leading psychiatrist on trauma, has found that trauma affects the entire body, and his team of trauma experts keep coming out with more and more studies about what trauma does to various parts of the body, even in the first seconds a traumatic event occurs, so those discoveries led other teams to study what has not been discovered yet, even going into specific types of traumatic events, and in this case, scapegoating children.
Anyway, this research is taking place in labs now. And what is more, some studies are not just being done on any child abuse victims; they are being done specifically on scapegoats and for scapegoats, the ones who endure systematic abuse from a parent or caretaker on a regular basis while growing up, and sometimes from their entire family.
There are obviously standards that have to be reached to be considered "a scapegoat" of your parent and family, and a lot of those standards come from Rebecca Mandeville's book, "Rejected, Blamed and Shamed". It is a book meant for therapists to help them diagnose whether an adult has the experiences and symptoms that would define them as a "family scapegoat", and for child abuse survivors to help them decipher whether they are a scapegoat or not, and then legitimize that they've been scapegoated by their family of origin if they can say "yes" to the questionnaire in the book.
I have scoured enough child abuse forums to know that EMDR, CBT, CPT, PE, Somatic exercises and pharmeceuticals, and even controversial therapies like CBD, low dose LSD, Ketamine, and Ibogaine do not work for all scapegoats, the healing methods used for people who have been traumatized. When the trauma is too pervasive, too deep, or too intense during childhood, it seems that sometimes nothing works.
Case in point: I met a woman on-line. Her case was this: 2 parents with all of the symptoms and traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and an older brother who sexually abused her throughout her childhood. She was dissociating a lot during episodes with her family and ended up with Dissociative Identity Disorder (what used to be called "Multiple Personality Disorder" - which according to a team studying this disorder at Harvard these days, is not so uncommon after all - more about this in later posts, I hope).
She was scapegoated by her family.
Her family took her brother's side, and at 20, she was rejected by her nuclear family. Another family member that was not part of the nuclear family put up money for her to get therapy. It was during therapy that she decided she wanted to be a therapist herself, so she took out loans to get a degree in trauma therapy, and eventually learned the techniques of EMDR and some of the other ones I've mentioned.
Anyway, after around thirty years of going to therapy and administering therapy to others, she felt that she could never heal, that no therapies had worked on her, that she would always feel broken and dealing with amnesia, severe depression, and splitting between alters, and short-changing her patients because she couldn't heal herself. Also, organizing anything in her life was extremely difficult. She didn't remember where she put things (because of the alters), and sometimes, even if rarely, displaced her patients' folders. She found that one of her alters had contacted her family even, and her older brother who had abused her for all of those years, which she experienced as a horror in terms of her main alters, and in terms of advising her patients to limit or break with their abusers for the duration of trauma therapy.
Anyway, she said she found she couldn't live with herself doing these things to "f" up her life. She said she was in chronic emotional pain all of the time. The on-going hypervigilence she found herself in when "betraying myself", and the alters taking charge of the betrayals, she said she couldn't live through any more of it. "I can't even trust myself! Most people don't have to worry about that, but when you have alters, self betrayal is a big problem! And I can't go back to my family to take a break, or get help like other people can because they are so much worse than the worst of my alters!"
There is nothing I could say to her to get her to re-think her decision to be lethally injected in Europe because she had tried everything she could to heal. Every therapy had already been tried. And then I never heard from her again.
What a tragic story!
She had been brought up in a time when Child Protective Services, established in 1974, could be functionally ineffective, especially in its earliest days. Between 1962 through 1967, the mental health establishment had discovered that child abuse was producing some unacceptable outcomes for society and for families to the point where there needed to be a nationwide way to protect children. Here is the Google AI version of that (partial, through the same link, and copied in blue):
The mental health establishment concluded that child abuse requires protective orders because overwhelming empirical evidence shows childhood maltreatment causes long-lasting psychiatric, physical, and developmental damage, often resulting in severe adult mental disorders and high mortality risks. Protective orders are necessary to immediately interrupt violent cycles, prevent further trauma, and offer legal safe boundaries.
The article also discusses emotional abuse and neglect.
Anyway, not to get off-topic too much, it is clear that for the worst cases of scapegoating, there is nowhere to turn. While abusers are often satisfied with seeing a "freeze response" from their victims because it's not challenging them and no one is running away from them, and freezing can look like "submitting" or "capitulating" (even with a devastated facial expression on the victim), it is doing untold damage to the victim. This is where an individuated, integrated, authentic budding personality with preferences, likes, dislikes, interests and opinions, goes to die. The freeze response is also where dissociation begins to happen, and where the compartmentalization of events, even internal ones, begin to splinter into what seems like more autonomous episodes.
With the new therapies being invented for the branch of trauma survivors one would call "family scapegoats", some of these issues are being addressed, and they are finding preliminary results to be "extremely effective".
Wow, some hope! That's great!
However, some therapists who have been privy to the preliminary results, are going out and saying they have the ability "to heal scapegoats and the particular kinds of trauma they have". So, I received a warning a couple of days ago that the results have not been officially concluded and the study is incomplete, and not to trust any therapist who claims they can heal the kind of trauma that scapegoats have. I guess there are the unscrupulous in every profession.
I have no idea what is in store, but I would think one of the more stubborn aspects of trauma to treat are the folks who dissociate. Again, it's involuntary, so how did they solve it, if they solved it? I'm eager to find out.
There is also something in the works in the labeling, something slightly different than the P.T.S.D. letters, but which have a lot in common with P.T.S.D. lettering too, which again would be used to diagnose scapegoats in particular, so that the scapegoat's medical team is more sensitive to their needs and requirements, and are offering more effective ways to deal with their particular traumas, than say, someone who has been in a car crash.
As with CPTSD, there are likenesses in common with PTSD, but also some differences.
For me, this is an interesting period to be alive, and I hope I see what is in store.
In the meantime, if you want to explore trauma therapies that are being used now, for the most part they are really effective for the bulk of scapegoat trauma survivors.
Here are some books you may want to check out too:
"The Body Keeps the Score" - by Bessel ver der Kolk
- available on Amazon
"Rejected, Shamed and Blamed" - by Rebecca C. Mandeville
- available on Amazon
"Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving: A GUIDE AND MAP FOR RECOVERING FROM CHILDHOOD TRAUMA" - by Pete Walker
- available on Amazon
"Growing Up as the Scapegoat to a Narcissistic Parent: A Guide to Healing" - by Jay Reid (Amazon)
"How Scapegoats Can Heal from Narcissistic Abuse: 3 Steps Towards Compassion, Protection & Freedom" - by Jay Reid (Amazon)
And if you want to know some of why women are scapegoated more than men, this is a book I highly recommend:
The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help (How to End Domestic Violence, Mental and Emotional Abuse, and Sexual Harassment) - by Jackson Katz (Amazon)
"Growing Up as the Scapegoat to a Narcissistic Parent: A Guide to Healing" - by Jay Reid (Amazon)
"How Scapegoats Can Heal from Narcissistic Abuse: 3 Steps Towards Compassion, Protection & Freedom" - by Jay Reid (Amazon)
And if you want to know some of why women are scapegoated more than men, this is a book I highly recommend:
The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help (How to End Domestic Violence, Mental and Emotional Abuse, and Sexual Harassment) - by Jackson Katz (Amazon)
ONE OF PEEP'S BLOG POSTS
(and searching for what ails you to see if it might have something to do with PTSD)
(and searching for what ails you to see if it might have something to do with PTSD)
Peep, as I call her, runs the blog, Five Hundred Pound Peeps as an anonymous writer. She writes on a number of subjects, including posts about and for ACONs, lymphedema and lipedema (which can often be mistaken for obesity), poverty from the status of an ACON on Disability SSI, politics and the economic challenges for the younger generations.
Anyway, she wrote this post on a lot of her health conditions, and I responded.
After I published this post, I found a video by Dr. Ramani that addressed health issues when you are around antagonistic people, or "hasslers". What great timing for this video! Anyway, I also imbedded that video below.
Regardless, I thought I'd share with you the response I gave Peep in regards to a lot of her health problems, so that if you have any of these particular medical issues yourself, and you are also an ACON, you may be able to attribute it to PTSD (copied here in green):
Anyway, she wrote this post on a lot of her health conditions, and I responded.
After I published this post, I found a video by Dr. Ramani that addressed health issues when you are around antagonistic people, or "hasslers". What great timing for this video! Anyway, I also imbedded that video below.
Regardless, I thought I'd share with you the response I gave Peep in regards to a lot of her health problems, so that if you have any of these particular medical issues yourself, and you are also an ACON, you may be able to attribute it to PTSD (copied here in green):
We have talked about this before, but PTSD can cause significant weight gain:
There is a strong link between PTSD and Lupus:
PTSD can significantly increase the risk of getting Type 2 diabetes:
PTSD can significantly increase the risk of getting allergies:
"physical or emotional trauma can act as a trigger for the onset or worsening of lipedema in genetically predisposed individuals.":
PTSD can significantly damage the endocrine system:
Being an ACON causes so much undue stress ...
The point here is that PTSD (or CPTSD - the disorder generally relegated to scapegoats) often is going to impact the body in some adverse way.
If you are a survivor of child abuse, you can look up what ails you in the same way I did for Peep and see if there are any correlations with the PTSD or CPTSD that you are experiencing. Since the Google search is American, using the word PTSD in its search is likely to get you better results for your questions because American psychiatrists still have not recognized CPTSD as "different" from PTSD (compared to European countries as I wrote at the beginning of this post).
If you are a survivor of child abuse, you can look up what ails you in the same way I did for Peep and see if there are any correlations with the PTSD or CPTSD that you are experiencing. Since the Google search is American, using the word PTSD in its search is likely to get you better results for your questions because American psychiatrists still have not recognized CPTSD as "different" from PTSD (compared to European countries as I wrote at the beginning of this post).
ANOTHER OF PEEP'S BLOG POSTS
(a discussion about leaving 30 percent of Gen Zers out of their parents' wills and trusts)
(a discussion about leaving 30 percent of Gen Zers out of their parents' wills and trusts)
Peep likes to see what is going on with parents who have children they are estranged from.
Apparently the sites she sees are full of wrath, with statements like: "How dare our children 'go no contact!' Even if it comes from a therapist, it's a bad way to treat those who have sacrificed their lives to bring up these entitled brats! Such ungrateful children! Leave them out of your Wills and give the money to charity! Teach them a lesson! Get a Trust because if you leave a Will, these kids are so selfish, they will contest it!"
Thirty percent of Gen Zers are estranged from a parent, so a lot of charities will become absolutely flooded with money apparently.
I haven't seen these boards on social media myself, nor do I want to. I have researched enough about narcissism to not be surprised by any of this. However, they do reveal these underlying issues:
* "Teach a lesson that will hurt them." - never works to establish or re-establish a bond, and it does not teach conflict resolution.
* "Brats!" - an insult generally reserved for underage children.
* "Ungrateful" - a "give-away" word that you may be dealing with a narcissist. It's also a cheap way not to have to think about what a child is going through. Narcissists use this phrase on children too much in forums (and it's about the only thing they have to say about their children), and because of that, it is eye-rolling. There are only so many punishments and pain a child will endure before running away. The phrase teaches nothing of value except that it puts all responsibility and blame on the child for the rift and none on the parent.
* Narcissists will do the bare minimum in raising their children.
Narcissists are generally more interested in status and money than their children.
Narcissistic mothers are more likely to work outside the home, looking for high status jobs, than staying home to raise children.
So narcissistic mothers are more likely to be working outside the home.
I'm not inferring anything here, but Peep talks about her days of growing up as a "latch-key kid". In Peep's case, she talks about her generation being more "latch-key-relegated" than past generations. Apparently they were kids who spent more time bringing up themselves than being in the company of their parents.
She was also a baby-sitter and dinner planner and preparer, according to what she wrote in her post, at nine years old when her parents were out working. Some "sacrifice" is expected when raising kids, and there is also an expected sacrifice by the parents to have the kids' run the household, especially when "latch-key".
Also latch-key kids who feel forced to provide for the family don't feel as valued as children whose parents sacrificed their "time" to be with their kids. So what kid wants to be with a parent who doesn't value them? And devaluation of children is, again, a narcissistic trait.
And frankly, all of the endless copy-cat narratives about this subject miss the mark of why children leave their parents. What kid actually thinks: "I am ungrateful, and that's why I left." "Ungrateful brat" is also self serving. And it doesn't get to the truth of any matter, not even close. It shuts out the real issues (a type of silencing of the child) and it shows a high propensity of these parents to control the narrative in such a way that it totally benefits them, with no benefit to the child, and totally wipes out any of their perspectives: "Vilify the child, never let them be right, ban all communication, batten down the hatches, and punish them all!!! Arggh!!"
If you read the adult children's versions, there are major differences. They are usually something along these lines:
"I tried my best with my parent(s). I'm not after their money, but when I have 60 - 80 hour work weeks with very little to show for it except a one bedroom apartment, I don't have time for the kinds of things they want from me. And frankly, what they want from me is time that is not productive, like arguing endlessly about a slight they feel, or telling me how to run my life, or gaslighting me, or insulting me, or demanding that I do things around their house. With the long hours I work? I can't survive the load I am dealing with and them at the same time. So I don't see my parents any more. Frankly, I feel traumatized by them, and that nothing matters to them except what they want. Something had to give."
So let's say the government can't take care of the enormous amount of Gen Zers when they are old. Perhaps the government will look to the incredibly wealthy charities these parents have endowed them with to provide financial assistance. It could happen - after the administrators try to give themselves a big fat raise to distribute the funds.
The cynicism is intentional.
Apparently the sites she sees are full of wrath, with statements like: "How dare our children 'go no contact!' Even if it comes from a therapist, it's a bad way to treat those who have sacrificed their lives to bring up these entitled brats! Such ungrateful children! Leave them out of your Wills and give the money to charity! Teach them a lesson! Get a Trust because if you leave a Will, these kids are so selfish, they will contest it!"
Thirty percent of Gen Zers are estranged from a parent, so a lot of charities will become absolutely flooded with money apparently.
I haven't seen these boards on social media myself, nor do I want to. I have researched enough about narcissism to not be surprised by any of this. However, they do reveal these underlying issues:
* "Teach a lesson that will hurt them." - never works to establish or re-establish a bond, and it does not teach conflict resolution.
* "Brats!" - an insult generally reserved for underage children.
* "Ungrateful" - a "give-away" word that you may be dealing with a narcissist. It's also a cheap way not to have to think about what a child is going through. Narcissists use this phrase on children too much in forums (and it's about the only thing they have to say about their children), and because of that, it is eye-rolling. There are only so many punishments and pain a child will endure before running away. The phrase teaches nothing of value except that it puts all responsibility and blame on the child for the rift and none on the parent.
* Narcissists will do the bare minimum in raising their children.
Narcissists are generally more interested in status and money than their children.
Narcissistic mothers are more likely to work outside the home, looking for high status jobs, than staying home to raise children.
So narcissistic mothers are more likely to be working outside the home.
I'm not inferring anything here, but Peep talks about her days of growing up as a "latch-key kid". In Peep's case, she talks about her generation being more "latch-key-relegated" than past generations. Apparently they were kids who spent more time bringing up themselves than being in the company of their parents.
She was also a baby-sitter and dinner planner and preparer, according to what she wrote in her post, at nine years old when her parents were out working. Some "sacrifice" is expected when raising kids, and there is also an expected sacrifice by the parents to have the kids' run the household, especially when "latch-key".
Also latch-key kids who feel forced to provide for the family don't feel as valued as children whose parents sacrificed their "time" to be with their kids. So what kid wants to be with a parent who doesn't value them? And devaluation of children is, again, a narcissistic trait.
And frankly, all of the endless copy-cat narratives about this subject miss the mark of why children leave their parents. What kid actually thinks: "I am ungrateful, and that's why I left." "Ungrateful brat" is also self serving. And it doesn't get to the truth of any matter, not even close. It shuts out the real issues (a type of silencing of the child) and it shows a high propensity of these parents to control the narrative in such a way that it totally benefits them, with no benefit to the child, and totally wipes out any of their perspectives: "Vilify the child, never let them be right, ban all communication, batten down the hatches, and punish them all!!! Arggh!!"
If you read the adult children's versions, there are major differences. They are usually something along these lines:
"I tried my best with my parent(s). I'm not after their money, but when I have 60 - 80 hour work weeks with very little to show for it except a one bedroom apartment, I don't have time for the kinds of things they want from me. And frankly, what they want from me is time that is not productive, like arguing endlessly about a slight they feel, or telling me how to run my life, or gaslighting me, or insulting me, or demanding that I do things around their house. With the long hours I work? I can't survive the load I am dealing with and them at the same time. So I don't see my parents any more. Frankly, I feel traumatized by them, and that nothing matters to them except what they want. Something had to give."
So let's say the government can't take care of the enormous amount of Gen Zers when they are old. Perhaps the government will look to the incredibly wealthy charities these parents have endowed them with to provide financial assistance. It could happen - after the administrators try to give themselves a big fat raise to distribute the funds.
The cynicism is intentional.
A STORY:
WHEN HUMOR IS IGNORED
WHEN HUMOR IS IGNORED
This is about a couple, I will call Mr. and Mrs.
Mr. and Mrs. were/are both family scapegoats. They are a " happy couple", and love the peace and tranquility that they find with each other, and that they have built together.
One thing that Mr. finds is his wife not listening to him at times. He doesn't know why, and she doesn't exactly know why either except she says she "lives in her own head" a lot of the time, a common condition for scapegoats.
However, for important matters, the Mrs. decided that he should use the term, "Breaker, breaker!" just in case she's with the thoughts in her own mind rather than listening to him, and in order to get her full attention. It works.
Anyway, they went for a walk one day and she again blanked out on him and what he was saying (meaning her own thoughts took over so that she didn't hear him - also a sign of dissociation).
He was in a joking, jolly mood, and talking about how dogs were going to "log on" to the internet to get what they wanted, and a whole story ensued with a lot of quips and double entendres.
His wife was nodding her head in agreement to these wild tales, but she had only heard the part where dogs were going to "log on".
After he was done, he asked her, "Do you agree with me on that?"
She answered "Yes."
He asked her again, "Oh, no! Do you actually agree with me?"
She answered, "Yes, I totally agree with you. I already said 'yes'."
He asked, "What is going on with you? You got lost in your own thoughts again, didn't you?"
She answered, "Yes, I'm sorry. I did. I'm embarassed and didn't want to admit it."
He asked, "Why does this keep happening? Am I boring you to such an extent that you switch off?"
She answered, "No. It's not you. It really isn't."
He said, "Well explain what's happening."
She answered, "I really don't know all of the answers, but I'm thinking it has to do with PTSD."
He said, "I have PTSD too, but I don't do that. So why do you think you're doing that and not me? And why are you blanking out on me? I love you and I'm devoted to you. There isn't a reason to blank out, is there?"
She answered, "No, absolutely not. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the abuse for you ended abruptly when you were thirteen years old. There were certainly gaps of better times for me, but the on-going trajectory was they wanted me hurt, and tethered to the family. That's all I can think of as to the reason why this is different for you than it is for me."
He said, "But where did you go while I was telling all of these jokes?"
She answered, "I noticed my thoughts got really loud right after you started talking about the dogs logging on to the internet."
He said, "You mean intrusive thoughts? Like hypervigilent experiences of worrying about whether your family still wants to attack you?"
She answered, "Nothing like that. I wasn't thinking about them at all. I have intrusive thoughts all of the time about all kinds of things, like how I'm going to tackle a room in our house in terms of organizing it and clearing it out in some sort of perfectly satisfying way that it won't ever get that messy again."
He said, "But why are you blanking out when I'm joking with you? Why would joking be scary for you?"
She answered, "I'm not afraid of the joking, at least I don't think I am. I'm not exactly sure why. Let me think about this for awhile."
When she thought about it for awhile, she said, "My mother used to lie to me a lot, and gaslight me, and try to convince me that everything was my fault. I know I blanked out on her a lot during those times. I'm pretty sure that she decided I was crazy based on these episodes, because for all I know, I might have even said 'I believe you' as an auto-pilot response, just like I did with you, because not to believe her lies was to invite her wrath. So telling a wild tale about dogs being on the internet might have been a trigger, and the mind then reacts as if it is a lie, and it's like "We have to flood the mind zone with something else!" I do know that my thoughts felt loud. I know it's involuntary to dissociate, so I don't know what to do about this. I'm okay most of the time, right?"
He answered, "You are, but you're doing it more than you maybe should. I just worry about you doing this with the wrong person, that's all. I'm still wondering why I don't do this if it is part of PTSD."
She said, "Well, the abuse was different. Your mother's abuse was violence, to whip you, and kick you and to make you bleed. She didn't gaslight you a lot, right?"
He said, "No, that wasn't in her lexicon, though she was convinced everything was my fault when my sister and I were at odds. However, I was never pressured to say everything was my fault. She assumed it was my fault without investigating anything because she had the attitude that boys hit girls, that boys tell girls what to do, that boys need to be taken down a notch or two. My sister was the main instigator of lying to appear innocent of something, so she wouldn't get punished and so that I would instead. She did the sinning and I would pay for it. So, in a way ---."
She said, "But you weren't constantly being lied to by your mother, right?"
He answered, "Not lying directly. She believed what my sister told her. I guess that's not really a lie. Anyway, I understand what you're saying, and it's good to know why there are differences between your version of PTSD and mine. I'll have to be sure to be in touch with you and what you're going through when I'm joking."
Mr. and Mrs. were/are both family scapegoats. They are a " happy couple", and love the peace and tranquility that they find with each other, and that they have built together.
One thing that Mr. finds is his wife not listening to him at times. He doesn't know why, and she doesn't exactly know why either except she says she "lives in her own head" a lot of the time, a common condition for scapegoats.
However, for important matters, the Mrs. decided that he should use the term, "Breaker, breaker!" just in case she's with the thoughts in her own mind rather than listening to him, and in order to get her full attention. It works.
Anyway, they went for a walk one day and she again blanked out on him and what he was saying (meaning her own thoughts took over so that she didn't hear him - also a sign of dissociation).
He was in a joking, jolly mood, and talking about how dogs were going to "log on" to the internet to get what they wanted, and a whole story ensued with a lot of quips and double entendres.
His wife was nodding her head in agreement to these wild tales, but she had only heard the part where dogs were going to "log on".
After he was done, he asked her, "Do you agree with me on that?"
She answered "Yes."
He asked her again, "Oh, no! Do you actually agree with me?"
She answered, "Yes, I totally agree with you. I already said 'yes'."
He asked, "What is going on with you? You got lost in your own thoughts again, didn't you?"
She answered, "Yes, I'm sorry. I did. I'm embarassed and didn't want to admit it."
He asked, "Why does this keep happening? Am I boring you to such an extent that you switch off?"
She answered, "No. It's not you. It really isn't."
He said, "Well explain what's happening."
She answered, "I really don't know all of the answers, but I'm thinking it has to do with PTSD."
He said, "I have PTSD too, but I don't do that. So why do you think you're doing that and not me? And why are you blanking out on me? I love you and I'm devoted to you. There isn't a reason to blank out, is there?"
She answered, "No, absolutely not. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the abuse for you ended abruptly when you were thirteen years old. There were certainly gaps of better times for me, but the on-going trajectory was they wanted me hurt, and tethered to the family. That's all I can think of as to the reason why this is different for you than it is for me."
He said, "But where did you go while I was telling all of these jokes?"
She answered, "I noticed my thoughts got really loud right after you started talking about the dogs logging on to the internet."
He said, "You mean intrusive thoughts? Like hypervigilent experiences of worrying about whether your family still wants to attack you?"
She answered, "Nothing like that. I wasn't thinking about them at all. I have intrusive thoughts all of the time about all kinds of things, like how I'm going to tackle a room in our house in terms of organizing it and clearing it out in some sort of perfectly satisfying way that it won't ever get that messy again."
He said, "But why are you blanking out when I'm joking with you? Why would joking be scary for you?"
She answered, "I'm not afraid of the joking, at least I don't think I am. I'm not exactly sure why. Let me think about this for awhile."
When she thought about it for awhile, she said, "My mother used to lie to me a lot, and gaslight me, and try to convince me that everything was my fault. I know I blanked out on her a lot during those times. I'm pretty sure that she decided I was crazy based on these episodes, because for all I know, I might have even said 'I believe you' as an auto-pilot response, just like I did with you, because not to believe her lies was to invite her wrath. So telling a wild tale about dogs being on the internet might have been a trigger, and the mind then reacts as if it is a lie, and it's like "We have to flood the mind zone with something else!" I do know that my thoughts felt loud. I know it's involuntary to dissociate, so I don't know what to do about this. I'm okay most of the time, right?"
He answered, "You are, but you're doing it more than you maybe should. I just worry about you doing this with the wrong person, that's all. I'm still wondering why I don't do this if it is part of PTSD."
She said, "Well, the abuse was different. Your mother's abuse was violence, to whip you, and kick you and to make you bleed. She didn't gaslight you a lot, right?"
He said, "No, that wasn't in her lexicon, though she was convinced everything was my fault when my sister and I were at odds. However, I was never pressured to say everything was my fault. She assumed it was my fault without investigating anything because she had the attitude that boys hit girls, that boys tell girls what to do, that boys need to be taken down a notch or two. My sister was the main instigator of lying to appear innocent of something, so she wouldn't get punished and so that I would instead. She did the sinning and I would pay for it. So, in a way ---."
She said, "But you weren't constantly being lied to by your mother, right?"
He answered, "Not lying directly. She believed what my sister told her. I guess that's not really a lie. Anyway, I understand what you're saying, and it's good to know why there are differences between your version of PTSD and mine. I'll have to be sure to be in touch with you and what you're going through when I'm joking."
Perhaps you can see that the differences matter in terms of treatment for PTSD.
New edit on 4/27/26: the video:
New edit on 4/27/26: the video:
VIDEO
THE PROFESSIONAL PAPER THAT THIS VIDEO REFERENCES
THE PROFESSIONAL PAPER THAT THIS VIDEO REFERENCES
aging, inflammation, and multimorbidity
by Byungkyu Lee, Gabriele Ciciurkaite, Siyun Peng, Colter Mitchell, and Brea L. Perry
Note: this is a different study than the one I talked about earlier in this post.
by Byungkyu Lee, Gabriele Ciciurkaite, Siyun Peng, Colter Mitchell, and Brea L. Perry
Note: this is a different study than the one I talked about earlier in this post.
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ReplyDeleteHi Lise your comments about therapy are interesting, I too find many of the protocols in therapy not working for scapegoats. I was in therapy for years, but have to admit the "be positive" stuff rankled and I wish more had admitted that the society was sick and had harmed us too. Some therapy helped of course but this is an issue that needs explored more. I follow this Trauma website that questions traditional therapy on Facebook. When they focus on the individual as "the problem" for not conforming to society enough [or a bad family] it backfires. I still think of those old therapists who told me to "forgive" and "reconcile" too.
The person with DID and alters really had a hard path to go too.
I remember reading about therapists who could integrate personalities in DID but I only know so much about the serious multiple personality stuff.
MAID and euthansia, you know I'm against, I hope she never did make that decision. I wish there had been more help even spiritual help for what ailed her.
She's definitely someone who got "soul murdered" :(
Society has failed the scapegoats because one thing I realized is most of the society is run on scapegoating at multiple levels. That probably would take its own post to explain. They repress people and teach conform or else and where the invisibility and invalidation, separate them from themselves. With this severe DID, loneliness may have even led her to seek other personalities "within". The worst thing for the scapegoat I believe that impacts them is having no love which is connected to failure to thrive. I have pondered how never feeling loved or accepted during the years spent with my family affected me during my life.
I am glad some are studying and paying attention to the extreme PTSD or new type of PTSD that may come about from severe scapegoating. I always thought they needed to define that. I was diagnosed with PTSD from some violent events [read article on my time as a residential counselor] but it operates different when you are chipped away at from daily abuse and never feeling safe for years and years, not allowed to sleep in my case too. If this can be defined better it could help people. Even my functional doctor told me direct, my multiple autoimmune problems, extreme weight, etc, are all related to severe abuse. He did get access to even some very old records. [remember I put self in therapy by 18]
I really want to read this research when it comes out. Thanks for informing everyone about it too.
Thanks for including our conversation, yes all these health conditions are related to PTSD including extreme weight gain, and when I had the 400lb plus weight gain, after the CPTSD/PTSD of childhood, I KNOW the violence I witnessed at that job/extreme poverty and other happenings in the bad neighborhood I lived in were all contributors. Like a DOUBLE WHAMMY.
Yes I learned trauma does worsen Lipedema. It is a known fact in many high stage Lipedema women, that they experienced trauma when their illness worsened. Some warn about cascades of fluid, etc that can happen during high stress. This is something I have to be mindful of, when acute stress can worsen the swelling.
Maybe some scientists should team up with the therapists and really test the level of autoimmune, illnesses etc, connected to scapegoating. Anyway, I am glad it is being studied.
I agree that therapy was not useful in the old days for scapegoats except as a way to express what was going on in private (i.e. without having to deal with narcissistic rage).
DeleteTherapy has changed drastically in the last 15 years, especially for therapists whose concentration is trauma therapy. EMDR was created in 1987, and then tested on patients in professional trials in 1989. Then the methods were taught in 1990 to a few licensed therapists. It was deemed to be "experimental" until 1995. In 1998, a randomized clinical trial on EMDR treatment of military veterans was published, showing that 12 sessions resulted in 77% remission of PTSD diagnosis.
But it wasn't until 2004 that EMDR was recommended as an effective treatment for trauma by the American Psychiatric Association.
It wasn't until 2012 that it was being taught to therapists for widespread use, and 2013 that the World Health Organization suggested its use as part of CBT therapy.
Bessel van der Kolk found it to be highly effective, and a tool to help people with complex trauma.
Thank you for your personal stories about your experiences with doctors. It's astounding how many later illnesses find their first seeds in a traumatic childhood.
You said: "Maybe some scientists should team up with the therapists and really test the level of autoimmune, illnesses etc, connected to scapegoating." - many autoimmune diseases have already been attributed, or found to have "worsened significantly" from a traumatic childood.
Some autoimmune diseases are still being studied in terms of their link to C-PTSD, and preliminary studies for most show a link.
You've lived through a lot. Thank you for your comment.
Therapy for many years was based on the "reconcile" model, and well that doesn't work for ACON abuse. I am glad therapy changed, there has been more trauma therapy, there is some evidence that some therapists have become educated about NPD, but even here, one must be careful, they have those "estranged parent'" therapists too, who take that side of things.
DeleteI hope they can find more methods too to help those with C-PTSD and PTSD. Therapy I think also needs to honestly face the economic part of life too. Yes there is definitely a connection between early trauma and extreme illness as an adult. I am glad I survived, thanks Lise.
You said: "Maybe some scientists should team up with the therapists and really test the level of autoimmune, illnesses etc, connected to scapegoating." - many autoimmune diseases have already been attributed, or found to have "worsened significantly" from a traumatic childood.
Some autoimmune diseases are still being studied in terms of their link to C-PTSD, and preliminary studies for most show a link.
You've lived through a lot. Thank you for your comment.
With the wills, Gen Z are far far poorer, millennials did badly and Gen X worse, but the poverty of Gen Z seems so high, they will never be able to have normal adult lives. Add in now that the parents they went no contact with, are going to cut them out of their wills, so there will be no possibility for a stable economic future. If you study enough history countries that let their young people languish or unable to make a decent living, do not do well in the long run, they turn unstable.
ReplyDeleteYes those websites are scary, with the estranged parents. I see endless anger, and they seem to be growing worse with more strident words about their wicked "no contact" children. Some may be innocent but some are so angry, I can see why the children fled. There is no natural affection one can see towards their children. I saw this first hand of course. I don't have much hope in those cases for any future resolutions. The adult children should stay away.
Yes the late 1970s-1980s became Latch Key time especially, so for those who were children in the 80s, those were kids who spent a lot more time on their own. Gen X bore the brunt of that societal change especially though it affected millennials too. My mother worked part time up to when I was age 12 but after that it was a full schedule, we always came home to a house with both parents at work. My parents had decent work hours working for the government, but many parents had to work very long hours where they were not home very much. I have noted that many kids are left home for many hours today. One can see a lot of parents on youtube getting arrested for leaving kids home alone while they are too young. Some of these parents are selfish and taking needless risks, but others are desperate and making bad decisions. Most of these parents getting arrested are leaving younger children alone--ones who haven't figured out that wondering the neighborhood or the apartment hallway may get their parent caught. I do wonder how many older kids are left home alone for hours and hours, let's say over the age of 9. How many parents in this kind of economy that is far worse than the 1980s, have 2 and 3 jobs? It makes you really wonder. I think people have less children nowadays but there's probably many children being used as babysitters every single day who basically are being used as parents to the younger children.
With the issue of narcissistic parents, the adult kids are gone because the parents never listened to them and you can see obviously among all their insults and online fits and seeking others who are like them, this has not changed. They have no interest in listening. I was never listened to. If you are going to be talked at, and insulted and put down, why bother? Their movement worries me you know and it does seem to be a movement as these social media boards are popping up like mushrooms where they can have little hate-fests about their kids. They obviously have absolutely no empathy for the lowered financial fates of their adult kids or the suffering that may bring. My family never cared about what I suffered. {"you deserved it}.
The government may have to pay attention to this issue, because since family is failing, there's going to be a hell of a lot more homeless people and people with mental disorders and people with severe disabilities from high ACE scores and trauma. Remember I could have been a functioning person if my asthma had gotten treated at the right time, if multiple autoimmune disorders weren't triggered or I was able to get Lipedema treated at stage one. Unless society is making plans to have us all live in communes/or other versions of communitarianism, the failure of family is going to bring some costs. The kids aren't all right, and these younger generations, the pressures and disasters are even worse!
Sadly many of the charities, there are legit ones too, pay admins 6 figures and the poor never see the money. All the billions shoveled into the industrial homeless complex, hasn't done much there. Maybe they bought a few tents.
"The family is failing."
ReplyDeleteThe birth rate has significantly fallen to 1.6 children per woman in the USA. A lot of this has to do with economic factors for Gen Z. 55% of Gen Zers work multiple jobs.
Trump and Vance have pushed younger generations to have more babies (it is part of the reason these two men want a more patriarchal society - women at home, men out to work), but the reason it's not happening is because of "extreme economic pressures":
https://www.google.com/search?q=gen+zers+aren%27t+having+many+babies+because+of+economics
And it takes two incomes in the USA to maintain a middle class income:
https://www.google.com/search?q=it+takes+both+a+man+and+a+woman+in+a+household+to+make+a+living+in+the+USA
The economic pressures are likely to worsen with an oligarchy taking over most industries. My husband and I have been reading about how cars and tools have not only grown very expensive (over 100,000 dollars to own a pickup truck now - impacting workers who fix things, plow people, capenters, plumbers, roofers, etc, raising the costs of owning a home), the most recent cars and trucks have computers in them that run everything, and when you need a new headlight, or your windows don't open and close, or a part has worn out, you have to take it to the dealer now to have the computer re-programmed with extremely high fees (over $1,000 in many cases for the simple fixes). Cars built before 2020 are mostly all mechanical, the suggested route if you don't want to pay these kinds of exorbidant fees to own a car and need a car to get to work.
In other words, large companies owned by the ultra wealthy are trying to build a system where people are absolutely reliant on them, where the choices are incredibly minimized = an oligarchy in charge of the country's people (unless the population has the cajones to stop it).
Gen Z is most vulnerable to this, and they know it.
One thing with the global elite, is they have worked for decades to break all personal ties, and things we need for our souls, free time, happiness, connection, they set up things for everyone to become a lonely economic nomad. They truly worked on breaking family ties. As much as I can't stand the 'estranged parents' there is a nugget of truth with a few that say family ties have been destroyed but they don't see that their narcissism, selfishness and focus on success instead of love, was part of this destruction. People can't afford kids. My own generation X had less of them but now the numbers are bottoming out. If you can't afford to take care of yourself, how are you going to take care of helpless children? Gen Z is screwed. I do hope something can awaken them out of their passivity in the USA? Maybe if Trump is stupid enough to try and draft some? I don't know. There's some that aren't passive but some of them should start asking, "Why are our lives being ruined?" and some should be admitting that this economy is leaving them in dire poverty and maybe start thinking of other plans.
DeleteTrump and Vance are insane to say "have more babies" when the money and jobs aren't there and they continue the globalist plans to send billions overseas for more wars instead of investing in American people. The rich political class and oligarchs are too out of touch with what things cost and how little money regular people live on.
Things were better when one income could keep a household going but I don't see plans for them to return any of that. They work for the oligarchical masters who don't want anyone to have private lives anymore and that's having as many slaves as possible. I don't think there will be a middle class anymore. How many middle class independent earners are there even among millennials and Gen Z? Very few. The oligarchs are ruining industry, they change everything to the most dumbed down but also the most complex. It's impossible to get things I need all the time around here, something is really wrong with this place but I haven't been in enough other places to know if they "changed" this way too. Empty store shelves, having to use Amazon for everything even wishing one could use a local business instead. Yeah those dealer fees are nuts and those computer idiots making simple systems complex does not surprise me.
I always thought Cash for Clunkers is so they could get cars off the road that people could fix for themselves. Well most people won't be able to afford new cars anymore anyhow. They want reliant slaves and they set us up so we can't fix anything or grow our own food [so many stuck in apartments with no land, and no community. I wish Gen Z was at least seeing that something is very wrong with this system. I hope so. They seem overly obedient to me to a point that kind of scares me. Maybe they are more angry in other places, or maybe Gen Z has just gotten depressed. This system depresses me. I think back to the 1980s and how much better things were and how they ruined so much, and the 80s had problems don't get me wrong.
There's a point where you make people so broke, and unable to function or obtain needed goods or have them work, that the system fails, and this one is definitely near that point. The price points they put on things compared to the money people are really living on is like funny money. Sometimes I think the worse people are getting the good jobs, they aren't very smart, they just make everything worse, meaner and more complicated. Yeah I would avoid buying a car where you have to reprogram a computer to get a window to work.
Angry Gen Z in the rest of the world.
https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20251227-we-won-t-stop-how-gen-z-s-anger-became-a-global-movement-in-2025
cont ... I worked a 60 hour work week most of my life, sometimes more. There was a six year period where I didn't even take a vacation. I know what it is like to work long hours, lots of extra hours to get by, and when you have a demanding, controlling, hostile, compulsively negative family, the choice seems obvious where you are going to put your attention. I see that estrangement is often a "survival move" for younger generations.
ReplyDeleteOne way or the other, going to war with one's own children, or the youngest generations, will "bite them in the ass". Imagine them in a nursing home with unscrupulous "care people", ripping them off via money, and treating them badly because they went "hostile" on their children, children the same age as the workers, and ending up at the county home (assuming they still exist by then - maybe not), and no family to call on. There are so many ways that going to war with younger generations, starting when they were children in many cases, with threats, bullying and abuse will have an epic fail. Acting entitled when old, will not pay any dividends either.
You worked very hard and having no vacations and more, it takes a toll. I sometimes ask even though my "career" was very short, why did I have to sweat and slave at multiple jobs that led nowhere, why wasn't I allowed to have health insurance or enough money to live on? Remember I had massive damage even from untreated hypothyroidism and I got turned away at one doctor in Chicago because I didn't have 500 dollars up front for thyroid tests, [your deductible is so much--I had some weak health insurance from the group home]. I even wonder why did my husband work so hard for us to struggle so much and no one cared that he had a very disabled wife either. The job system is broken and it's gotten even worse. The jobs aren't going to bring survival for most anymore. The minimum wage hasn't even been increased since 2009. I think many who went no contact, were like me, the world is already breaking you down, why be around a family doing the same. In my life, they joined the world in saying "You don't deserve anything go die". I have to admit I had weird emotions about all those connections and those they did get the internships and 6 figure jobs for. Most are tired from their day to day, slogging in through, many having to "hustle" and do side jobs, selling stuff, just to eat and pay rent, so where's the emotional energy going to come from dealing with a well-off, snobby narcissist relative who will only put you down, because success became everything in America. That's another way they turned the population against one another too. Family no longer was the bastion of care and support it became a competition club you got thrown out of or abused if you didn't measure up in the "economy". I hope Gen Z is getting out younger and not putting up with it. If my mother ends up really sick, I don't think the narc selfish golden children are going to come running to her rescue. She has money to meet her needs but many others will outlive their money or run out or yes realize what nursing homes are really like even the expensive ones, that drain their money to the tune of $5,000 a month. Add in the fact most of those workers are very underpaid, probably can't even afford rent or living with roommates in broken down trailers and living in poverty themselves. Some will be decent people despite poverty but they already talk about the uncontrollable abuses in nursing homes. Sadly so many became so much in love with their own success and money and THINGS they kind of threw their own kids in the trash can as the last resort, and this is why they have no empathy for the economic suffering of their children or the younger generations as a whole. I believe one reason Gen Z and millennials are not having kids beyond the overweening economic pressures is why have a family or even desire one, if your own sucked so much? I even wonder if the oligarchs plan to shut down all the nursing homes, since their greed is endless, what would happen to Medicare and Medicaid, even if someone is worth in the low millions, the nursing homes suck up the money like a straw, it will only take a few years to clean out even a rich older person. Families used to depend on one another, with that gone, what use are they anymore?
DeleteIt seems very much like "The Apocolypse of the Family". I do think materialism, a lifestyle, and the changes the older generations insisted on when they were young got in the way of raising children.
DeleteThe thing that gets me is the hypocrisy of wanting deep change in their own youth (Women's Rights, Women's Liberation, protesting wars that were sidelines rather than about an imminent threat to our lives, changing the sexual mores, more racial inclusion, the birth control pill, and so much more), and the big change that Gen Z wants from the older generations is respect, a little empathy, to be able to share their perspectives and experiences without being shouted down, silenced and threatened. That's so hard? Really?! It seems so absolutely nutty and hypocritical, especially from a generation who wanted such huge changes.
"I want you to change for me, but I don't have to change at all for you." - that's the message? And that is what seems so narcissistic younger generations.
I'm thinking about the perspective of going to work as a 30 year old aide who lives in a trailer park for rich older people in a nursing home ... The thing I see:
* the older parents are bringing a war to the younger generations, insulting them, refusing to consider their perspectives, calling them names, leaving them out of their wills ...
And by the way, consider that 71 million people are Gen Zers, about 20 percent of the general population ... that means 6.7 percent of the population will not inherit family money, however this does not take into consideration that 25 percent of Millenials are estranged from a parent, and 38 percent of Gen X are estranged from a parent, and 10 percent of baby boomers are estranged from a parent. So it's not just 6.7 percent without an inheritance when you take all of the other generations into consideration ...
It is actually 1 in 4 of the population of the USA are estranged from one parent. So 25% of all of the USA's family wealth goes to charity?
Gen Zers just happen to be in the bullseye at the moment. There is no reason why they are getting so much flack (maybe because they are more vulnerable and are the most economically disadvantaged at this time?).
cont ...
cont ... to get back to the war parents are bringing to their children in these forums that you're seeing ...
Delete* Why this war? - of all of the causes one could fight, trying to hurt children through insults and finances makes the most sense compared to Women's rights, and ending racial discrimination, and all of the other things so many of them wanted?
And it also seems like a war they can't win, not with punishing attitudes.
If they go too far, and there is a huge disparity of wealth between the younger generations and older ones, they'll end social security to even out the distribution of wealth, or the crime will go up ("hit up those old people who punished us with their insults, disrespect, and wealth and did not care about us in childhood, adulthood, or at any time!").
I see nothing good from this, and young people are more resilient, stronger, more capable of outlasting older folks.
When it would be easy and easier to be respectful, and learn something from younger generations than to carry out a punishing agenda of "the future", I would think it would be better for all if there was two-way respect.
I don't get the war or cruelty either. Narcissism did grow and we know narcissists hate the young and are jealous of them. Remember in 2015 when I said the older generation was not aging like previous generations, [now this doesn't apply to all, there's good people in all generations] but I feel like that's something I guessed right at. They are angry they are old and jealous of youth? Maybe it's a spiritual problem. That said, I am seeing the young people already [the ruling class are experts at that divide and conquer thing] saying Social Security should be ended, and there's no forward thinking about these young people who should think of when they get old or maybe even become disabled while younger. The huge disparity of wealth, as I wrote about has made life experiences so different, maybe too many of the groups don't relate to each other. My mother never faced anything I did and wasn't interested in knowing anything I had gone through. If there's no communication, how can there be any growth in the relationships. Crime definitely will be going up as the homeless populate the streets. I already see people writing angry screeds about Gen X, [because in this case they had wealthier Gen X parents who maybe did okay in STEM, this is rarer but can happen, and they are noticing the same future is not there for them. The young are understandably bitter and angry, but the too many of the older ones, are ignoring and refuse to understand what has happened to them. I don't see anything good coming of this either. If the generations have nothing but this much animosity, no one will want kids, because they will have seen nothing but fights between people and no understanding. This is the second reason beyond no money, why people don't want kids anymore. There's other factors here, especially when parenting and family became about competition and domination instead of guidance and love. Why did everything become about CONTROLLING the youth? instead of desiring young people with verve, initiative and creativity. Punishment instead of understanding was always the first go to. And people grow up, they cease to want to be controlled and put down. The whole culture has gone off the deep end.
DeleteIt is an Apocalypse of the family. I don't see how "family' will remain intact after this. You know I've written about the economic nomadism destroying communities and social connections for years, I only see that getting worse. The young are learning they can't depend on their own families, and their families [in many cases, not all] don't care about the economic ruination of their lives. Even among nice and polite people who are older, and I was around some in groups I was in, they just refused to even fact that it was happening, so beyond the narcissistic ones, you have the ones in horrible denial or who don't want to admit that all the things they battled for since the 1960s seem to be cracking society apart. You know how Ollie Matthews, [he's one of the MAGAs who are fed up with Trump] talks about how society become debauched and 'degenerate', I tend to agree. Maybe there are some modes society needs to stick to or things break up. You know my negative views of "feminism", this doesn't mean, that all feminism was bad, like allowing women their own accounts and abuse shelters, but something went very wrong when they insisted women pull a double-shift everyday, and well it's not working in the long term. I read this conspiracy page about how Steinem was an "intelligence" operative meant to take feminists away from class and economic issues and focus on career above all else, pushing poverty and economic issues aside. I definitely agreed. So many movements while some may have started with a few good ideas, they were co-opted and really were for the enrichment of the ruling class. We see the results today. Materialism and success became the epitome of life and now that's failing as the post war prosperity is drying up, the ruling class have become more powerful and greedy and the environment is under strain.
ReplyDeletecontinuing...
ReplyDeleteI think too there was huge hypocrisy too of wanting deep changes in one's youth to becoming the opposite supporting everything from helicopter parenting to crackdowns on every front, I still remember that book I read that claimed the hippie generation was going to turn "fascist" once they hit old age. Maybe some can't contend that some of the changes they made. [not all, some were positive] have been for the detriment of society. They also seem to have this "forever young" mentality where they don't welcome the young or support them but see them as competition in some cases. Maybe it was a generation that had it all and took it for granted and it's made empathy too low in too high of numbers of them. [There are people who are empathetic in every generation but somethings gone wrong]
They were taught success at all costs, and one thing I have noticed [let's not forget as they entered the 80s this was the generation who were told "Greed is Good" and that's what they judge their young people by. Are you a winner or a loser? That's my family's whole mentality. Some could argue this was the ruling class and consumerist society pitting people against each other for profit too. I also read the theory that all the hippies who really believed in equality [not posers--those who refused to sell out in the 80s] didn't live as long as the conservative ones who did follow the "greed is good" ethos.
The changes if you think about some have not worked out. Some were good, like Civil Rights and birth control, but if you think about the sexual revolution created more problems than it solved, the wars have gotten WORSE, and more numerous. What's Vietnam now to a multitude of wars? I agree with the Vietnam protesters too. The ruling class has gained more power, remember when "the man" was a problem in the 60s, well the man's won and he's putting the tightening screws on everyone.
Maybe many can't admit these failures, I don't know or admit, hmm maybe some of our ideas weren't so great for the betterment of society. That said, I don't see the right wing or religious fixing the problems either, they've entered into their own war mongering nuttiness with the Christian Nationalism and Pharisee mentalities.
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ReplyDeleteThe young people don't feel listened to, they don't feel validated, and no one is listening. I do think this probably has been a problem for eons as the old can be set in their ways--remember I am getting old now, but one thing that always protected things was there was a social contract where older people had duty towards the younger generation and they thought of their lineage so to speak and wanting positive futures for them instead of what it became in the 60s. Competition? With social connection gone, and heritages and feeling kinship, maybe that's another thing that ruined the connections.
Even cutting kids out of wills would have been a no-no because people with a sense of duty, thought of their future grandchildren and more and did not want them living in misery if it could be helped. .
Wow I didn't realize the number was so high by the way [38 percent for Gen X but that doesn't surprise me. Some more Gen Zs as they age may have a higher percentage because as we know some don't get out of toxic relationships until later.
It is scary to think 25 percent will go to charity? Oh lets not forget the "we have to spend the inheritance" people and how health care/nursing homes will empty out the accounts. Maybe the ruling class set things up this way too. You know those wolves can't wait to clean out the pensions and whatever else they can. The whole system is set up to extract wealth, I guess until nothing is left. Less money means less power and less status and now even within families, if mother and father are well-off it doesn't mean you are. You don't inherit status from the family either anymore, once you are 18, you are just another broke slob on the street unless you find a career of worth. That's another way "family" has died out. It really is every individual for themselves out there now. I noticed the media started attacking younger people even in our era, "Slackers", "bums", etc. And that just continued and got worse. Remember big money finances a lot of our national media, and well, makes you wonder about those pushing those type of attitudes. With everyone at each other's throats, and people not even able to depend on each other anymore [understand people running from toxic people like ACONs and other situations] it gives the ruling class far more power. Each generation gets poorer and poorer, and that means far less power and status.
There are some interesting points you bring up. While I don't consider conspiracy theories so much, I do consider other things you brought up. A lot. In fact, I think about what the positives and negatives about what the Women's Movement did for younger women.
DeleteAs you know, with few, but very good exceptions, I had, and many of my generation had miserable experiences with the older generation of women in the workplace. The false gossip, the entitlements ("I'm older, so I deserve _______", as though we were always supposed to take a back seat in income, visibility, power, and ideas), the invalidations, the silencing, the scapegoating, shoving our talents and ideas aside, and the competition was extraordinarily high. We were the same generation as their children, and I can't help but think they treated their children the same way as they treated us. I saw some of their children sometimes, and they did not look happy or connected to their Moms.
I remember a male friend with some compassionate nurturing tendencies remarking one time that the country doesn't need everyone to be comptetive men; it needs empathy, compassion, care, belonging, community, love, and that on the whole, women are better at that than men are because they are called upon to be that way with babies. He said historically men were counted on to be protective, to put their lives at risk to protect their communities (war), and to do hunting, a more dangerous occupation than picking fruits and vegetables.
He thought that if women start to act like men in the workplace that it would change them genetically to be more competitive than to be nurturing, and that it might influence the birth rate, and child rearing (teaching children to be more self centered, to compete, to not listen to anyone because they might be a rival, to be job/career oriented over compassion-oriented, to be envious over being caring). It looks like it has influenced birth rates in small measues - it keeps going down and not up in the USA.
I should mention that these women were "heavy" into women's rights. Most marched even. But the way they acted towards young women gave a bad representation of that movement. They chose scapegoats of their own generation too, so it wasn't limited to just us, and in one case, drove out someone with a lot more empathy than they had. I tried to save her from that fate, by bringing up all of the reasons she should stay, but I was invalidated and scapegoated for trying to do that. It has never sat "easy" in my mind.
DeleteWhile I think that women should have equal rights and equal pay in the workplace, and that their voices should have equal representation, I don't approve of the silencing and bullying of a younger generation of women that seemed to come out of that movement.
And bullying younger women, or having men bullying them, trashes the very movement they fought so hard for.
One extra comment : What I mean by "trashing the movement" is that I heard men say: "Women should never be in the workplace. They don't know how to get along with us that well and they especially don't know how to get along with each other. There are constant cat fights and gossip."
DeleteYes I think about the positives and negatives of the women's movement, except for the health problems, I do wonder if I would have been better off in more traditional times. I wonder if this is behind the tradwife movement, some women probably out in the career world, aren't seeing the benefits, and think you know what, 'maybe a more traditional life may be better".
DeleteIt has its risks of course, like if a husband leaves or dies, and there a woman is having to take care of kids with no money. The careers aren't paying off now and many aren't even able to establish careers of any note give the state of the job market. I saw some women who wanted traditional lives when I was in fundamentalism. Remember I was in very conservative churches, some even had Quiverful people in them but I thought that went too far. I was a "housewife" via disability by default, but I think many found the work-world wanting.
During my 30s I had these Silent Generation friends I've written about who said, that life was better when most women were home [except the widows/single women and older women] and able to take care of their families and contribute to society. Two of them said, "Our daughters have a much harder life, they are all overworked". I relate to what you said about the bullying older women in workplaces. I encountered some of those. Some were nice but then there were those kinds. I actually got to a point where I felt like I worked with men much easier than other women, and at the group home asked to be transferred to the boy's home instead of the girl's home I worked at, because I thought I got along with them better. They had more male staff in these homes and those guys treated me well, and there was mutual respect, and there were a few female staff, but they did not allow me to transfer. I always felt like men treated me better at work than women but maybe it was the "competition" factor among the women and my personality being autistic. Many women are a little on edge talking about this stuff at times, you know all those old notions of "sisterhood" in the 70s but I remember my negative thoughts about "catty" women in the workplace who gossiped and "back stabbed". I always felt like if a coworker man was mad at me, he'd tell me while females thought of other punishments that were more behind the scenes. Not all, I had a couple nice female bosses including one at the juvenile home. I was in female dominated professions and I do often wonder how things would have been for me in more male dominated professions. The workplace lets be frank well rewards the competition stuff, and we often have talked about how those with narcissistic traits can move up in the workplace. That's too bad about those kids who weren't connect to their Moms.
Your male friend is right, they turned everyone into competitive men, and they basically suppressed all the nurturing people. One thing I think about is what was lost, in society. Everyone had to work so there was no women at home to take care of ill family members, the disabled, or elderly. The ones forced into caretaking roles, were pulling double and triple shifts and exhausted. There was more help and time for family life and even life in the community. I think this is one reason people remember the 50s with nostalgia even if some of it was based on myths--the poor women were still working some... but back then, there was societal engagement and time for women to be involved with family, church, and civic life. Churches are closing and I think one reason, the church world is dying, is with everyone working, women don't have time to dedicate or do church work and well this applies to other volunteer and social clubs too. There's less time for civic engagement or activities in the community.
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DeleteSince I am disabled most people I have seen in groups I have been active in [is most in them are retired people. Years ago younger and middle aged women would have been involved in more of these groups. If you think about what the book Bowling Alone warned of that only got worse. You know growing up, I got the crazy message all the time that I was supposed to be like a hardcore competitive man, and often made to feel I failed but without any of the benefits that were given to the boys. There was a place for people to be nurturing, and back then women could expect men to be protective. I do expect men in my life to be protective of me. I think your friend was on to something about the reduced birthrates related to women being forced to be competitive instead of nurturing, the two sides of the workplace and being mothers does contradict. The young are less interested. The young women are told you have to make money, you have to succeed or else! I think the pressures worsened with each generation too. AKA some Boomer women were okay with getting married out of high school and being stay at home Moms but by the time Gen X came up, SAHM were already being put down as "lesser women". There's no room to be get dreamed eyed or money anymore to have kids and do the nurturance thing. This world has gotten so hardnosed, even attempting a family when you can't even take care of yourself puts terror in all their hearts. I think the children have paid a heavy price, they were pushed aside long ago for the careers. The corporations power grew because there was nothing to counterbalance it. How has that affected people? It makes one wonder? You're right the kids have been taught to see others as rivals and to know one day they are to compete, and either measure up or not. The whole trophies thing I always write about. There's little room for compassion, caring, personal lives and connection with those things always coming first. Your friend is right. Far less young people want children anymore. There's a reason for it. A hardened completive world doesn't have many soft spots for babies and little kids, to be cared about and raised properly. This is the opposite of a cooperative society.
I noticed a lot of the older Feminists who did the Women's Lib thing were angry at us Gen X women a lot. Many tended to be wealthier and I got banned from Ms. magazine boards in the late 90s on the internet for saying Look the careers are not the same anymore, and maybe all this work and competition isn't bringing happy lives. I started using my sentence for it:" the corporations got a two for one deal" way back then. Oh they didn't like it.
DeleteI have to admit my experience of feminism was not a positive one, and well, first wave and some things make sense, but I feel like we all have lost something being constantly told that we had to be more like men.
I don't think all female nervous systems are set up for all this stress and being told to always be "strong" and "stoic". Due to my physical problems and weight, the pressure seemed harder on someone like me to be more like a "man" than a woman. But maybe it's happened to all women. I think about the Spartan society I learned about in history class, everyone competing all the time, there was no vulnerability allowed there. Maybe that's what's happening to this place. The balance between the sexes is far out of whack. That's changed society too on a few psychological levels.
You know what is sad, is while maybe they imagined in those early Women Lib days that women would bring empathy and compassion to work places if anything they have been rendered meaner. Money making doesn't go along with care and concern? I saw too many women with narcissistic traits always forcing out the kinder and more compassionate women. Remember my job at the group home? There was this very nice younger woman who worked there, and they treated her badly, I wasn't even lowest on the pecking order. I would defend her but the other women were so cruel. She ran out crying one day never to return. I couldn't blame her.
You know what is weird at that job, I had men protecting me all the time. I liked the men and they liked men, most worked in boy's home but we had some campus wide responsibilites/shared home activities. I would help them too as I could, but among the women, I saw some of the kindest women being treated very badly.
Sometimes the men are right about the catty behavior, cat fights, gossip and more. All the competition brings out the worse in some women. Now men can behave badly at work, but I often wondered why things got so bad among women at the workplace, why were so many focused on tearing other women down. Too much bullying is happening. Given the dictatorial and mean way the work-world works now, and how the job/economic world works, the Women's Lib movement failed massively. Some seem too proud to admit how much worse their daughters and grand-daughters lives have become. Sure maybe a few can work careers in STEM or there's a few developments that were positive, but overall? It's made life harder and worse and the economic and working life in America is more oppressive than ever.
For unmarried women, there aren't many choices other than jobs and careers. And even married with children, there is often not a choice (these days).
DeleteI think the more difficult aspects of both sexes putting so much attention into work, and for the youngest generation, multiple jobs, is keeping a home organized. If you have children, that's going to be formidable. I don't think children are meant to be "latch key" in a society either, at least in these numbers. In our ancestral past, children were always with their parents and there were some universal ways they were brought up. I'm going to be talking about that at some point.
And to get back to C-PTSD, what this blog is partly about - with that diagnosis, there is no question that disorganization is part of what happens. So it's a double whamy if you have multiple jobs and that diagnosis.
If we become a dictatorship with an incredibly wealthy oligarchy in charge of most business transactions, I'm going to predict that the birth rate goes below one percent ... that is, unless they outlaw birth control, which could happen to get the birth rate up.
Yes, for single women/widows, divorced, they have no choice but to work, jobs and careers. Poor women always had to work, though it was different when work was done on the farm, or the family business with other family members [prior to the industrial revolution] I don't know how people are supposed to fulfill all these obligations if they are working 40-60 hours a week and have children too. Accomplishing domestic tasks, having the right tools, food, etc, is near impossible too when everything is extremely expensive. People definitely are overstressed to the breaking point especially with the economic demands. Even the middle class has been squeezed to the extreme. Why wouldn't they be disorganized, and with the bills so high, they can't afford outside helps. If a person has CPTSD, it's going to make it much harder. No time to rest or decompress worsens CPTSD, when people have multiple jobs, they don't get weekends off, or a day to shop or do self care, or rest or sleep in. It's go-go-go all the time. If there's any health problems some live on the edge of mental and/or physical collapse. With that time of formula, there's no time to help kids, or spend time with them. I think the dictatorship is basically already here, but if they install extreme AI surveillance--we are already under some now, Digital IDs/digital money everyone's goose is going to be cooked. The birth rate will fall to below one percent definitely. I can see them outlawing birth control and other stupidity. Maybe they would make it unaffordable. I look forward to your post about how children were brought up before, there was more togetherness and not being put in a daycare center for 10-12 hours a day. I think the present life style is unsustainable even for human anxiety levels. Too high of expectations and demands in a society that gives too little with no connection. The cases of PTSD/CPTSD from all this are going to increase.
Delete"Digital IDs/digital money" - there is actually an antidote to that: local currencies (or even local trade). Then you have small local businesses again that people buy and sell from like in the Middle Ages and Renaissance.
DeleteBut if we have a Gestapo type of dictatorship in the USA, they may try to take away local currencies, or burn the places where currencies are made or kept, to keep the serfdom of the oligarchs going. They won't be able to limit trade with goods and services, however.
It depends on how much control the government has, how much the oligarchs can control the people, and how much power the people have. I think it'll be a fight.
Right now people's taxes are going towards a billion dollar ballroom, ICE, and a war with Iran - mostly. That's pissing some people off, especially since federal income taxes run between 12 - 22 percent for most Americans, as opposed to 5 percent in 1950 (usually less because there were a lot more deductions and exemptions you could take in 1950 compared to today).