Interviews with someone diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder

I have been dealing with a number of issues, so I thought I would share some interviews that The Little Shaming Healing put up on You Tube that show some similarities and some differences with the NPD diagnosed man I interviewed.

These are worthwhile interviews to listen to if you want to understand NPD. It will give you some perspective on how a person diagnosed with NPD sees the world, his relationships and family.

The contrast between the man that The Little Shaman Healing interviewed and the one I interviewed is that the former was more of a target of abuse in his family of origin, whereas the latter largely played an observer role and is a golden child.

Both of them are in counseling (which is extremely rare -- in other words, don't expect someone who displays symptoms of NPD to go to counseling and become enlightened about anything). That they are both in counseling says something about their wanting to understand their condition, and why they are living with that condition. That is to be applauded. I think both men have some inkling that the rest of the population does not think the way they do, or act the way they do, though they think that anyone is capable of it if pushed too hard. In contrast, those who have NPD that never set foot in a psychologist's office, usually think that others conduct themselves in the world as they do (narcissists are known for projection, perspecticide and erroneous blaming which makes their understanding of anything beyond their own feelings and thoughts extremely compromised). In counseling, they both learned that NPD was developed as a defense mechanism against parental abuse (in particular, shaming).

As expected, the man in the following interviews grew up in a family where shaming of children was rampant. While there was no physical abuse, there was a lot of verbal abuse and emotional abuse. I suggest listening to the ones on his childhood first.

The four videos after the ones on his childhood are about how he conducts himself in his relationships. You can hear why he erroneously blames and abuses others (it is a pre-emptive strike so that he won't become abused himself). You can also hear that he does not care if he is accurate or not when he blames or abuses others. The pre-emptive retaliation is meant to control the other person from making, what he feels, the decision to strike against him. In other words, it is a show of power.

He decides that his impulses and his feelings about others are facts. In other words, he does not attempt to understand, or give the benefit of the doubt to others, or search for the truth. He assumes most people are out to hurt him, and that in order to keep from being hurt, he must abuse. When asked if it was fair to hurt others without proof that they were out to hurt him he said "Yes". While his answer is disturbing, it is also common for people diagnosed with NPD.

He also talked about his work life (that he doesn't like to work, preferring to delegate to others) -- also very common.

When asked if he could not tolerate the criticism of others, he said that he could not, that he felt it put him in his childhood state of feeling helpless, unloved and alone (this answer is to be expected, but most NPDs will not expose themselves to this extent, that they have a vulnerable frightened side since mostly they show the tough I-can-live-without-anyone side to the world most of the time). He said that he felt like a con artist, and that when people fell in love with his false self, he has trouble feeling good about it, that it causes problems and repercussions in his life.

The areas of the interview that are not expected is that he is quite aware of his true self (vulnerable, afraid, lonely) and his false self (grandiose, acting, pretending and abusive). He also revealed that he loved and cared about others, though he pretends not to in order to keep from being hurt. Most narcissists are deemed to be without any empathy, and many will admit to not having any empathy at all in interviews, but perhaps the narcissists who can no longer feel empathy are those who wear their false selves so continuously that they no longer recognize their true selves where their empathy might reside.

© The Little Shaman interviews:

Interview With The Narcissist: CHILDHOOD CONFESSIONS (Part 1):

Interview With The Narcissist: CHILDHOOD CONFESSIONS (Part 2):

Interview With The Narcissist: CHILDHOOD CONFESSIONS (Part 3):

Interview With The Narcissist: CHILDHOOD CONFESSIONS (Part 4):

The next are about his adult years:

Interview With The Narcissist: RELATIONSHIP CONFESSIONS (Part 1):

Interview With The Narcissist: RELATIONSHIP CONFESSIONS (Part 2):

Interview With The Narcissist: RELATIONSHIP CONFESSIONS (Part 3):

Interview With The Narcissist: RELATIONSHIP CONFESSIONS (Part 4):

abuse and walking on eggshells, being ultra careful about what you say

art by Lise Winne, quote by Robert Davis, LCSW

If you are in a healthy relationship, you will know it, because you can say anything you want to say, as long as it is not abusive or untrue. Also what you say will be respected and heard.

If you are in a dysfunctional or toxic relationship, you will not be able to speak about a huge range of subjects, even if they are true and are not abusive. In addition, you will be expected to go along with lies. What you say will not be heard and it will not be respected. Furthermore, when you speak about anything they don't like, you risk being abused, rejected, betrayed and/or raged at from your abuser. You are lectured to, rather than the conversation being about understanding or enlightenment about different perspectives.

According to Wikipedia "Walking on Eggshells" means:

1. (idiomatic) To be overly careful in dealing with a person or situation because they get angry or offended very easily; to try very hard not to upset someone or something.
2. (idiomatic) To be careful and sensitive, in handling very sensitive matters.

Abuse always seems to be accompanied by the "walking on eggshells" phenomenon.

Abuse wouldn't be abuse without victims being expected to walk on eggshells and being afraid that their abusers will strike against them at any moment.

Who among us survivors hasn't gone through "punishments" because we said something the abuser did not like, or because we failed to say something, or because we grimaced or rolled our eyes in such a way that our abusers felt enraged?

To top it all off, most of us weren't even trying to hurt them or enrage them, and so we find ourselves confused ("Why is this happening? Why are my words being interpreted so darkly?" and so on). We find we are "walking on eggshells" most of the time when we are around them -- in order to keep the peace.

What is really going on in abusive situations where you are required to walk on eggshells is that the abuser wants to try to create peace and harmony in their lives, for themselves, at the expense of you. Some of the phrases abusers use are: "Can't I have just a little peace already?", "Why do you create so much drama? I just want peace!", "I want peace in my life, but you are the impediment to that." Then when you are deemed to ruin their sense of peace and tranquility, they punish you for it (whether that be verbal abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, physical abuse or financial abuse).

Requiring you to walk on eggshells around their highly sensitive feelings and explosive natures is also about trying to control you, and in this case it is about trying to control how you view them and how you talk to them. If you listen to them carefully, they will be giving you lectures and instructions on what is acceptable to them in terms of your speech. Most victims of abuse soon find out that most subjects of conversation become slowly and methodically taken away. The only subjects left seem to be flattery of them, telling them that they are always right, promoting the abuser, making excuses for the abuser and doing/saying what the abuser wants and expects. It is the main way that abusers get other people to give into them. Yes, they are game-players who feel that they must always and unequivocally win, and in the end, dominate.

It is, at its core, an arm-twisting tactic: "Only speak in the way I want you to speak or you will be punished". They provide the code of conduct that you are to perform for them (and age is not a limit: they talk down to grown-ups as much as they talk down to little children). They expect you to follow their code of conduct when it comes to relating to them, but they almost never use their own code of conduct themselves (abuse is, after all, an obvious anti-code of conduct, plus most abusers are hypocrites).

So, in this way, what they are doing is like stealing. Your need for peace and contentment is expected to be totally sacrificed for their need of peace and contentment.

Believe it or not, abusers enjoy "their subjects" walking on eggshells. Yes, most of them view themselves as kings and queens who will get things done if they just shout down at people enough. If their subject is recalcitrant, they will shut them out instead. They use intimidation, threats, temper tantrums, maneuvers, betrayal, emotional blackmail, back-stabbing and triangulation to get people to capitulate to them in terms of enforcing "the walking on eggshells expectations".

Again, this demand that you "must walk on eggshells for me and be hyper-sensitive to any hint of criticizing me, and any other easily bruised feelings I may have -- or else" is a quality peculiar to abusers (who overwhelmingly tend to have Cluster B personality disorders: Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder -- see my post on what abuse is and who it is perpetrated by).

Walking on eggshells feels a little like dancing on hot coals (trying to keep your feet up in the air enough so that the coals don't burn you). The abuser is the one who keeps shoveling more and more hot coals for you to dance on.

The hot coals represent what you can't talk about without getting burned, and the number of hot coals increases over time.

This serves several purposes: To make sure you are a 100 percent loyal subject/servant, to test how much rage and taking away of your freedom of speech that you will endure just to be in a relationship with them, and to conveniently find a reason, any reason, to escalate abuse.

Insisting that others walk on eggshells is premeditated, and therefor evil. It is just as malevolent as gaslighting, and is usually used in tandem with gaslighting. It is insidiously cruel, and for many victims, the rage and ensuing abuse they endure from it is initially shocking and confusing. Over time, most victims find there is no room in their mutual relationship with the perpetrator for their own views, perspectives, truths and experiences. It whittles away at their person-hood, their very presence in the relationship. 

Over time, it can and does cause PTSD too.

What are some instances of walking on eggshells in abusive situations? I have three to show you. One features a husband and wife, the next features a mother and daughter, and the last features a family scapegoating one child.

1.

A man tells his wife that he will be home at 5:00. He comes home at 6:00 instead. The following conversation ensues between husband and wife:

wife: I thought you were coming home at 5:00. What happened?

husband: I never said that! I said I'd be home at around 5:00. 6:00 is around 5:00 if you hadn't noticed.

wife: Well, to me, an hour later is not around 5:00. 

husband: Are you going to harangue me about the time? What's the matter with you? Do you have so much to do that I can't be an hour late? You really are trying to drive me nuts with this, aren't you? (getting testy): You're really trying to drive me over the edge. I'm warning you: you are provoking me!

wife: How did we get to the point of me trying to provoke you? I was just defining it, that's all ---

husband: (interrupting): You know what you think of yourself as? My boss! You think you can boss me around you little twerp! You think you can snap your fingers and say "5:00" and that I'll come running! But let me set you straight just in case you think you can pull that BS on me! 

wife: What?! Now you're really making up things to --

husband: (interrupting): Oh, so now you're going to call me crazy!? Just for that I'm not going to tell you when I'm coming home! I'll never tell you again, in fact! How do you like them apples?!

wife: How did we get to defining what late or around 5:00 means, to all of this? Please stop this!

husband: Forget it! You aren't going to have a husband at 5:00 or 6:00 or at any time! You've pushed me over the edge with this, and with your insanity! And I swear to God, if you continue with this, I'm gonna smack you in the jaw! Is that what you want? A nice big bruise to your jaw?

wife: Please stop this! (runs over to husband to hug him, but he throws her on the floor). 

husband: Look at you! You look pathetic! I used to think you were attractive, but no matter what you say, it is ALL ugly! It is ALL ugly little lies that you like to spread about me! Everything you say is one big fat lie, you evil little bitch! Don't ever tell me what I said again, do you hear me? I tell you what I said, and you believe it! And I'm not punching some clock at home!

wife: (cries on the floor)

husband: Next you're going to say why am I so mean to you? Right? Like it's my fault that you interpreted it as 5:00! Right, bitch? Right, bitch? Get up off the floor, and face the music, bitch! (gives her a little push with his foot)

wife: I suppose I should have said nothing.

husband: No, what you say is: "You came home when you said you'd come home: at around 5:00. I'm so thankful that you're home, sweetie." But no, you're too uppity for that, you ungrateful bitch! You can't appreciate someone who comes home to you, at any hour, so I'm leaving for the night. 

wife: So you want me to walk on eggshells and be careful of every little thing I say?

husband: Just think about it: if you hadn't said what you said, we would be having dinner together, but because you were a bitch, and ungrateful, I'm going out, and I'm going to think about whether I'm ever going to come back! And I'll also consider how much money of mine you'll deserve in a divorce. Not much, I'm afraid. You can stay here all night, sniveling on the floor, and think about what you have done, because that is what you deserve! (kicks her in the back)

Notice how he escalates it all. Almost all abuse escalates whether it is over a matter of minutes or over a matter of many years.

The wife in this situation really cannot say much of anything without risking enraging her husband, so many women in these situations go silent. 

Besides the wife having to walk on eggshells, notice:

* the blame-shifting and making it seem that she brought on the abuse by talking about the time

* the verbal abuse ("bitch", "evil little bitch", "little twerp", )

* the circular conversation and word salad arguments

* expecting perfectionism in words and deeds

* the threats

* the silent treatment (walking away) 

* telling her what she thinks and feels and what her plans are (this is what he makes up about her, and usually it is mostly a matter of the abuser projecting)

* defining her in a vilifying way (calling her evil, perceiving her as evil)

* notice how he treats her like a child who needs to be punished

* notice the interrupting 

* notice the lectures and imperious tone

* notice the common phrase that most abusers use: ungrateful

* notice the physical abuse: throwing her on the floor, taunting her with his foot, kicking her on his way out.

* notice the financial abuse (threats about money) 

* notice the gaslighting (making it seem that she is at fault for "provoking him": the "she made me do it" excuses that abusers are famous for, telling her that she is insane)

* and last, but not least, notice the lack of empathy (what most abusers are famous for)

2.

Here is one between a mother and daughter. These are actual screen shots of phone texting, but I have blocked out names in Photoshop. The daughter is telling her mother about a party for her toddler and telling her mother she is invited. However, the mother feels she is in competition with her mother-in-law (narcs are usually very competitive jealous people where they feel they deserve to come first, or have the right to decide who is invited and who is not):

It is amazing how an innocent invite can turn into this, isn't it? In order to make her daughter feel guilty, the mother refuses to go. This is very, very common narcissistic mother behavior, by the way. The daughter came to the forums asking us for advice. It seems very clear to most of us that however the daughter responds, it may be "the wrong thing" in the mother's eyes (narcs tend to be a Princess and the Pea, and get enraged over just about anything that is said or not said). What is more, they have been known to try to make their daughters believe they are responsible for causing this big mother-daughter rift.

The mother may give the daughter the silent treatment over this episode, and is giving her a veiled threat of it. The mother may also withdraw help, withdraw love, tell her daughter to "get everything you need from your mother-in-law. I'm done!" The mother may insinuate that she will only stop the silent treatment when her mother-in-law is out of the picture (permanently dis-invited). This is all too familiar to survivors of child abuse.

This text and story is also a good example of perfection in abusive relationships and erroneous blaming. It is also an isolation tactic (trying to isolate her daughter from having a relationship with her mother-in-law). All of these can be categorized as abuse.

3. 

A girl who is 11 (Angela) comes home from school and her brother who is 10 (Craig), throws a bunch of Styrofoam peanuts over her head as she walk through the door. He laughs at her surprise. She tries not to react and quickly heads outdoors, but is followed by him. 

Craig: I surprised you, didn't I? Admit it. (he laughs and points his finger at Angela, but she doesn't react)

Craig: Oh, so you are going to ignore me and pretend that it didn't happen? Just for that, I'll tell Mom that you did it! And we know how Mom is: she'll take my side! And you know it! (laughs out loud, pointing his head to the sky and doing a little dance)

He knows he is getting to Angela, because her shoulders hunch and she looks depressed.

Craig: Mom knows how crazy you are because she says it all of the time! (he walks up to Angela and tries to trip her)

Angela: Stop it, you little brat! 

Craig: Calling me a little brat now, are you? Well, just for that, here's this! (he runs towards her and punches her hard in the stomach. She doubles over and falls to the ground, lying there for awhile).

Mother: What is going on here? You both need to come back to the house. (Craig runs up to the house, but Angela is hurt so she walks slowly, clutching her stomach).

Mother: Oh, so much drama. Why are you holding your stomach?

Angela (upon approaching the door): You know why. You had to have seen it. He punched me in the gut.

Mother: I didn't see any such thing.

Craig: Mom, she punched me in the gut, so now she is pretending that I punched her in the gut. You know how she is.

Angela: No, Mom, he's lying.

Mother: Angela, go to your room!

Angela: Why am I always the one who is punished?

Mother: Because you're older and should know better.

(Angela heads off to her room and then the mother visits her there eventually)

Mother: Okay, so you punched him in the gut, and left those peanuts all over the floor. First you are going to clean them up and then next you are going to apologize to your brother.

Angela: But Mom, I didn't do it! I swear I didn't do it! Why won't you believe me? Didn't you see any of it?

Mother: No, I didn't. But I know who you are. Don't think you can fool me!

Angela: But Mom!! (she starts to cry and her mother doesn't comfort her).

Mother: You know what irritates me? All of this crying! You cry over everything! As if I'm this terrible, terrible mother! Well, I don't buy it! You want something to really cry about? (takes a toy off of Angela's shelf and smashes it).

Angela: (screams as if she has lost a long lost friend -- focuses her attention on the damage to the toy)

Mother: You know what you're going to do? You are going to clean up all of those peanuts, and you are going to put them in a trash bag, and put the trash bag in the garbage can, and you are definitely going to apologize to your brother. Then you are going to go right to your room every time you return home. This will be your punishment for a week. This is so you will stop making trouble with your brother and so that you will have time to think about how you are acting. Let's get going."

Angela: I want my father!

Mother: Your father is not going to rescue you! (laughs)

Tim, another sibling comes into the room. He is usually very silent, almost monotone, and unmoved by the struggle between mother and daughter. He asks if he can have a glass of milk, and the mother gives permission and he leaves. The mother nudges Angela, and Angela partially fights back by sprawling on the floor so she is like a dead weight. 

Mother: I'm warning you! I'm not going to drag you, but I WILL kick you if you proceed with this, so make up your mind about what you are going to do!

Angela gets up and puts the peanuts in a bag, takes them to the garbage can, and whispers "I'm sorry" to Craig. 

Mother: What's that now? I didn't hear it!

Angela: Sorry! But I still didn't do it!

Craig: Look, Mom, how she tries to get away with it! Look at how much of a liar she is! She even looks evil!

Angela: I'm angry because I didn't do it!

Mother: Yes, you did! (walks to the doorway and shouts down the hallway). Tim, come up here!

Tim: (he shows up in the bedroom) What do you want?

Mother: Do you see how she is acting? This is what I don't want! If either one of you act like this, this is what will happen. You will be sent to your room and you will stay there. Do you both hear me? 

Tim: Yea, I know. She's always in trouble.

Craig: Not just in trouble, she's horrible!

Mother: Okay, that's enough, Craig. You can leave now. I want you to hit the books.

Craig: Oh, of course! Thanks, Mom! I was just planning on it! (gives Angela a little knowing smile, runs down the hall with enthusiasm with Tim following) 

Mother: You see, if you acted more like him, then we'd get along a lot better too. This isn't doing you any good at all, but I suppose you'll have to learn about it in time. 

Angela: (rolls her eyes)

Mother: Don't you dare roll your eyes at me! You need to be quiet and contemplate what you've done! It's a wonder I haven't smacked you silly for that look! You are lucky I have a cool head and that I'm smart! If I wasn't educated on child rearing, you would be so bludgeoned right now! So count yourself lucky! (shouting): But, you will get to your books now!

Angela: Mom, I just want to say (looks frightened) ... never mind.

Mother: Never mind is right! Get to the books!

Hours later the father comes home.

Father: (talking to wife): Why is Angela in her room again?

Mother: She misbehaves. I try and try and try, and it is exhausting, but she just won't listen. She insists on starting trouble, so she is paying the consequences yet again!

Father: I don't like it that she's in her room again. I just don't see where you are having so many problems with her. I just never see it.

Mother: That's because you are away. Believe me, she starts it with everyone around here.

Father: Well, I don't like it that she's in her room all of the time. I'll take care of this situation now that I'm home.

Mother: That's the problem with you. You always undermine me!

This is absolutely terrible parenting, by the way. It is also typical of toxic abusive families. It is what happens in scapegoating. 

Angela would be the one who is blamed and punished for the transgressions of her brother and her mother. Angela has no voice, as well as no power to influence the outcome, so her victimization goes unnoticed by the whole family. Only her father seems to treat her with some consideration, though he is caught in the matrix of the family dynamic the mother is insisting on, and is trying to get him to adopt via persuasion. 

This is also not typical parenting. It is exclusive to parents who are addicts, Borderline, Narcissistic or Sociopathic. Favoritism among children is abusive because over half of families who practice scapegoating and favoritism end up in this way. The golden child in this situation becomes duplicitous, is allowed to be an authority on the truth, while the scapegoat is not. He is also a bully, while the scapegoat is continually silenced, gang-bullied and expected to endure it all (see my post on favoritism in the family). 

If Child Protective Services never catches on, this sibling and parenting dynamic can, and does, continue throughout adulthood, or until the parent dies. 

In terms of walking on eggshells, the scapegoat is heavily, heavily burdened with it. The other children aren't, so they never see the perspective of the scapegoat, and many of them don't care to. They go along with the perception of the parent that the scapegoat is a trouble-maker. Scapegoats really aren't considered at all in the family unit (they can easily be forgotten, even, especially if they have gone quiet). They are barely regarded as people with feelings, even, they are so vilified. Many scapegoats give up on talking about their victimization because it does no good within the family unit, and in fact, it is made known fairly early on that talking about it is a detriment in terms of escalating more "punishments". They grow up feeling that they are flawed, that their looks are flawed (from hearing too many times: "I should smack you silly for that look!" or "You need to be punished for that look!" or "Look at her! She's horrible!" or "She even looks evil!"). In these situations, most children understand that how the child acts towards the mother becomes more important than how the mother acts towards the child. 

Many scapegoats are extremely pressured to flatter, or to at least to talk well of their abusive parent, even with this dynamic going on!

For this reason, many scapegoats find the family situation unbearable. Suicide rates and addiction rates are high for scapegoats. Adult scapegoats are also often treated as pariah by their offending parent (dis-invited to special family events, ignored, taunted, goaded, lectured to constantly, expected to be a Cinderella, insulted, left out, and so on). The family is also brainwashed to see them as hopelessly recalcitrant.

Tim, the sibling who doesn't talk much, most resembles "The Lost Child" in family systems theory. More on the lost child in another post.

WHAT SHOULD YOU DO ABOUT THIS SITUATION?

So what should you do: walk on eggshells or not walk on eggshells? And if you don't try as hard as possible not to be ingratiating, how bad will the punishment be? 

My answer to that is: only you can decide which way to go with this. My advice: "safety first" and to contact a domestic violence counselor. 

Remember that abuse escalates (gets worse over time, and can sometimes be life threatening no matter what you do or don't do), so most victims choose to get out, whether sooner or later. Abuser's lack of empathy also tends to get worse over time. The relationship between you is likely to be only about the abuser, their perspectives, their relationships, their deeds, their illnesses, their accidents and their agendas. Yours will most likely take a back seat or diminish altogether, to the point where you may feel you are non-existent to this person. It is an insecure place to be. In addition, they are likely to expect that only they will matter to you too, that you will sacrifice yourself for them. You become, what is termed as "voiceless" and slave-like. Abusers also tend to be much more jealous than the rest of the population, and intensely jealous people tend to intentionally hurt other people (a lot of them indulge in revenge fantasies and strategizing).

You will have to determine whether you can take any more of it, and if not, how to get out of it. Again, contacting a domestic violence center can help in terms of giving you options.

FURTHER READING:

Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder / Edition 2 -- book by Paul T. Mason, Randi Kreger

Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder -- a Psych Central article by the same previous authors

How Not To Walk On Eggshells Around Emotional Abusers -- by Annie Kaszina, Ph.D.

Quiz: Are You Walking on Eggshells in Your Relationship? Part 1 -- by Neil Rosenthal, licensed marriage and family therapist

Emotional Pollution in the Home: Walking on Eggshells -- a Psychology Today article by Steven Stosny, Ph.D.

Are You Emotionally Abusive? -- another Psychology Today post by Steven Stosny, Ph.D.

Helping Clients Move Through Partner Emotional Abuse -- by Karen R. Koenig, LCSW, MEd

7 Signs You’re Sharing Your Bed with a Narcissist -- by Clinton Power, psychotherapist, for the Australian site, Clinton Power and Associates

WALKING ON EGGSHELLS EMOTIONAL ABUSE AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE -- from the Australian site, Violence Hurts 

NO MORE WALKING ON EGGSHELLS: Domestic abuse survivors write haunting messages about their experiences on cracked egg shells to promote White Ribbon Day -- a UK art project by many survivors of abuse 

Walking on Eggshells -- a personal story from the blog, The Narcissist's Wife

Walking on Eggshells -- another personal story from a survivor of Narcissistic abuse

MARTHA’S STORY: A LIFETIME OF WALKING ON EGGSHELLS -- a DVD of a domestic abuse survivor by Terra Nova films

8 Reasons Arguments Escalate -- by Aaron Karmin (for Psych Central)

The Keys to Conflict Resolution -- by Aaron Karmin (for Psych Central)

here is a long video by Dr. Judy Rosenberg, Ph.D. on the subject:

Why do narcissists reject (discard) their most successful child?

Cartoon © 2016 by Lise Winne

This issue has come up over and over again in forums. There is no research on this subject, but I will endeavor to make some hypotheses about this. In short, I believe it is grounded in what abusers grew up with, and who they were surrounded by at the time.

First things first however ... some narc parents turn their most successful child into a golden child because it makes them look good. The narcissist longs to hear: "You did a great job raising him. What a nice young man, and so successful!" This is to say that not all narcs reject children who are successful. Indeed they can become just the opposite of rejecting parents, turning into helicopter parents instead (i.e. too "glommy").

But the opposite can also happen where the parent props up the least successful (with rewards, money and gifts) and deprives the most successful (ignores, scapegoats and rejects). In this situation, the parent hopes that by propping up a chosen golden to lavish attention on, then the child will be successful, and by rejecting the scapegoat, it will help the scapegoat to be a failure.

Even with all of the extremely manipulative "propping" and scapegoating, scapegoats can be successful anyway, despite what Mom or Dad want for them, and often are. One reason many become more successful than goldens is because they are left alone, left out of the family, left out of family get-togethers, slandered, excommunicated, etc. What does the scapegoat have left? Work, of course. There may be therapy for a couple of years, which helps them to learn they were abused, but after that there is work, and before-hours work, and after-hours work. Scapegoats have been known to work too much, too hard, to the detriment of other things in their lives (becoming work-a-holics -- I'll discuss this in another post). Although not all driven-to-succeed work-a-holics become successful, many of them do. The other reason why scapegoats often become the most successful is because Mom and Dad have sacrificed them and they can no longer go home to ask for help, so they HAVE TO SUCCEED. This goes against what the parent wants, of course, but narcs are known for short term cruel, devastating impacts rather than long term devious thinking. Also, many narcs want their scapegoats to be in role so much that they really believe that deprivation will keep them in role (i./e. forever gang-bullied by the family).

In almost all cases I have seen, the parent tells or shows the child that the child is not good enough through a barrage of criticizing, insults and rejections. See my post on perfection in abusive relationships.

Following are three examples of real people who are successful, but still scapegoated by their parent. What I think is going on in the minds of the narcissists come after these examples. Narcs are usually fairly predictable and obtusely unaware when it comes to relationships, so I think what I say will make sense to you. Challenges are welcome, of course.

A MEDICAL DOCTOR'S STORY:

This story is about a doctor that I know. He is not the type of person who you would find at a forum, so I am telling his story first:

This doctor's mother let him go 30 years ago. She avoided his graduations, she avoided his expertise when she was ill, she mostly avoided him at family events. He described the expression on her face as disappointing and disapproving. For the most part, he has not been a part of her life for those 30 years until recently. When he did see her at family events, she either criticized him, or ignored him or told him that he was always her problem child, a child who wouldn't behave properly (as if being a doctor isn't behaving, but that's what narcissists do!). Meanwhile he has a brother who has spent his entire life in and out of prison. His mother spends all of her holidays and free time with this brother.

There came a time, however, when the brother was released from prison and noticed his mother wasn't quite well (beginning of Alzheimer's), so he put her in a nursing home. The son with the prison record lives at her house and lives off of her money via power of attorney. In the meantime, the doctor sees the mother at the nursing home more than the coddled brother even though he has to drive 530 miles to do so. Since he doesn't have power of attorney or health care proxy, he cannot move her closer to him to look in on her more often to make sure her medical needs are met.

So, here he is, a medical doctor, but her ne'er do well son is in charge of her medical care!

The doctor knows about narcissism and feels that his mother is a classic narcissist with a golden child and a scapegoat, but beyond that, he hasn't thought about her very much, preferring to concentrate on his patients, new medical breakthroughs and the family he built with his wife.

When I asked questions, he laughed nervously and shook his head as if he has always been embarrassed by his mother.

One of the questions I asked was how he dealt with self esteem issues. I phrased it something like this: "We all know that narcissists want to cut you down. It's what they do: criticize, insult, punish, and treat you like a little child who needs lectures when you're 50."

He laughed at that, and rolled his eyes as if embarassed by having a parent like that, and then said something like, "I had a father who was supportive of me. He was a typical enabler when it came to her, but it was a wink-wink-nod-nod kind of thing where he let me get my science projects and homework done and follow my dreams by taking over the demands she put on me. He would also deal with the criticisms and abuse that were meant for me by pretending that they were directed at him instead, even if it meant that he had to argue endlessly with her. It was his way of saving us. He died just before my highschool graduation. Her narcissism got so much worse after that, but by then I was out of the house and in college. My brother was still at home, so he took the brunt of her demands and abuse until he dropped out of highschool and left. After many years, he went back. She made a decision shortly after his return that I was her problem child, and he was her good child, and that my wife and I were no longer welcome to be in her presence unless we twisted our lives inside-out for her. I mean, she wanted me to give up my practice. Can you imagine?" and he laughed again, shaking his head in disagreement with her demand. "So okay, I accepted that she didn't want us in her life. It was her choice. Once we had children we didn't want her around anyway. It would have been bad for the kids. Her insults weren't something my wife wanted the kids to be around. Our kids are great members of society mainly because we didn't expose them to abusive family members."

He minimally advises patients who confide in him about abusive parents. He also tries to comfort teenagers who are being put in foster homes because of drug-addicted or abusive parents. He told me that his advice to all of these patients is the same: to live their own lives as autonomously as possible from the offending parent, and to study narcissism as much as possible. He said it was important to study narcissism and abuse because studying it makes it very clear that abuse is not the fault of the target, ever. It is due to a personality disorder and the cruel mindset in the perpetrator, period.

See my post on what abuse is and who it is perpetrated by.

And by the way, I agree with the doctor. It is always best to figure out why Mom (or Dad) act sadistic, or betraying, rather than why Mom (or Dad) "doesn't love me". As long as you are stuck on "Mom (or Dad) doesn't love me and why don't they care about me?" you will not be able to transcend the problem, or the pain, or the attraction to give up your whole life and your voice to please the impossible-to-please intermittently rejecting parent.

A LAWYER'S STORY:

This next story is about an adopted daughter:

She was welcomed into her new family as an equal to "the other siblings", but soon realized she was not equal.

She had high ambitions unlike her other siblings. She was pushed into many of the arts in terms of extracurricular "lessons", but excelled in science much to the disappointment of her adoptive mother. She received an undergraduate degree in engineering and a graduate degree in law.

She has two children.

Most of the other girls in the family became mothers and home-makers and never went to college.

She is rarely invited to family events, and when she is, she is often criticized, lectured to, and made to feel outside of the family unit, i.e. like "not one of them." She also feels that she will never be "good enough" for the family. A child or children "not feeling good enough" is typical for narcissistic and alcoholic homes, but rare for other kinds of homes.

She was in the forum one day asking why her mother can't love her, and her children, and why, even with all of those degrees, she is lectured at as though she is still a little girl who can't tie her shoes right. She was asking why her adoptive mother couldn't accept her and see that she was a good person. Why did this mother treat her as an outsider, not deserving of the same respect and love as the birth siblings?

Note here: narcissistic mothers even reject their birth children, and they reject them A LOT, so it is unlikely that it has anything to do with being adopted. See my post on favoritism in the family.

A RADIO AND TELEVISION PERSONALITY'S STORY:

The next story is about someone I know from the forum of survivors that I belong to. She rarely comes to get advice; she more often gives advice. She is one of its senior members.

But she does talk about the circumstances of her life sometimes.

Here is her story:

She was deemed "not to amount to much" as a child by her mother. In most of her stories, it is obvious that she is the scapegoat of the family. She describes herself as an extrovert, and hated by her mother for being one. She describes her mother as neglectful, cruel, judgmental, domineering and publicly demure. The mother was also described as nice to people, but endlessly critical behind their backs in private. She describes her mother as "one jealous narc!"

She spent her childhood trying to please her mother, but when she realized that she never could, she started being the family clown to help take the pressure off. She was very unpopular with her mother, who punished her and isolated her for her comedic transgressions, but popular with her siblings, particularly her sisters who felt their lives were going to be endless drudgery and micro-managing by their mother.

After so much punishment and isolation from being the family comedian, she learned to do it more privately, clandestinely, comforting her "punished" siblings and getting them to laugh and dream.

However, it didn't all go smoothly as narcissistic mothers usually try to pit their children against each other. They were told: "Don't listen to her; she's not going to amount to anything, while you will," and "Why would you want to listen to her? She's always in trouble. Is that what you want? To always be in trouble and locked in your room?" and "She's no one you should be following. She isn't worthy of your attention. Snub her, for yourself, and for me. Being in trouble is not a good example to follow." Note: she was only in trouble in her mother's eyes.

One of the reasons she feels she got into radio and television was because she was rewarded overwhelmingly for being quick-witted and funny, in spite of her mother. While she was only rewarded for it at home minimally (in the way I have described), she was rewarded for it from her friends at school. She also excelled in acting in highschool and college. She won scholarships, she graduated with honors. She was also praised for her interviewing.

She dealt with her mother's rejection until she was 28 years old. After awhile, during those years, she gave up on "the thought of a mother's love", learning not to care. By the time she had accepted her fate as "the permanent rejected daughter" she was doing comedies about her mother, and of dysfunctional-walking-on-eggshells type of family situations, using things her mother said to her during her life.

This catapulted her to higher success (the funniest comedy is often what you've lived through), and of course, made her even more popular with her siblings to the point where they were avoiding the mother, or laughing when the mother would try to lecture them about their clothes, or cooking, or child-rearing. She also made enough money to help out any other siblings who were being scapegoated or expected to give up their lives to be mom's plaything.

This put "jealous narc Mom" on the outside of her entire family.

This is when the mother tried to get back into her comedian daughter's life, without much initial success.

But narc-y Mom was persistent, constantly showing up at her daughter's work, at her shows, at her house, in the audience, trying to laugh through the comedies. It took a lot of "suspending disbelief" and "benefit of the doubt" to let her mother back into her life at all.

The daughter insisted on a year of therapy, but the mother balked and left.

The daughter then began writing skits of a "perfect mother" not needing therapy (a gag).

However after six months, the mother finally capitulated especially since her other daughters were challenging her to go to therapy too.

At the time, the therapy seemed to help. But from all I have witnessed, therapy with narc parents does not work unless it is ongoing. It is too easy for the narc parent to slip back into lying, gaslighting, betraying, slandering, backstabbing, silent treatments and other nefarious activities that make them horrific and terrible parents. It is like an AA program in that they need something to help them stay on track, to keep the ultimate goal in mind, i.e,. replacing a despotic authoritarian relationship (with power struggles) with a relationship that is mutually loving and caring.

The other tell-tale sign of the mother only wanting a relationship with her daughter based on how much she could control her daughter, was that the mother wanted to be a "stage Mom". The daughter didn't catch on that this was about control at first and let her mother's advice influence her too much: what she would wear, what kinds of jokes she would tell (to keep the comedy off of Mommy-dearest, of course), what kinds of jobs she should apply for, and so on.

Anyway most narc-y Moms end up trying to be stage-Mom in situations where a rejected daughter's success happens to be in the public eye.

Then the daughter got cancer. She wasn't expected to survive. She had to give up her work and cancel guest appearances.

At the same time her brother moved in with her mother because he fell on hard times financially.

How did narc-y Mom react to her daughter's cancer? She went to travel throughout Europe for six weeks with the brother (the excuse given was to cheer him up). Okay, but narc-y Mom never once called to see how her daughter was faring with cancer treatments, or even whether she was alive or dead. And, yes, this is more common among narcs than anyone would like to believe. See my post on why narcissistic abusers pick the worst times of your life to inflict pain and do damage.

When the daughter unexpectedly survived the cancer, and the mother returned, the damage to the relationship had been done. The mother voiced many, many excuses, of course, but they fell on deaf ears.

She occasionally sees her mother, but only at big family gatherings, about once a year or so. Even then, the mother pretends she is sick and has been forsaken by her "terrible daughter" (note the hypocrisy here, as well as the projection and pretending to be the real victim: all not-so-lovable narcissistic traits). With the exception of her one son, her other daughters and the rest of the family are on to the mother now.

There are some gray areas to this story obviously, but not enough to warrant the excuse of her mother sacrificing her daughter in this way, and to this extent.

MY OWN IDEAS ABOUT WHY NARCISSISTS REJECT THEIR MOST SUCCESSFUL CHILD:

The most obvious answer to this issue is that narcissists want to feel higher in stature than their child. Narcissists are competitive "game players" and if they don't feel higher in stature or feel like they are winning, they don't want to play. They walk away "from the game" that they set up. The only other way for them to feel higher in stature is to tell a child who is successful that they are still not good enough (gambling on a child believing it despite the child's high achievements).

The other obvious answer is that they love bullying and putting people down. Yes, they love it, otherwise they wouldn't do it. They feel that they can't bully as effectively, or manipulate children without the wild swings that they are known for: "help" followed by "withdrawl of help", "love" followed by "withdrawl of love", "accepting" followed by "rejection", "praising success" followed by "hyper-criticisms and reprimanding". If their children are autonomous, successful and don't care what their parent thinks then these swings, these manipulations fail to work any more for the narc, and since manipulation is about the only thing they care about and live for (literally), they don't know what else to do. Their profession (the profession of manipulating) has been taken away from them. It is null and void, ineffective, a broken toy.

Like a child, they can be depressed that it no longer works.

About the only thing they can do at a family function is snarl at the child who they rejected, the child who is not "manipulate-able". Sometimes they "pretend-praise" an estranged child just for show.

One of the less obvious explanations for why they would reject a successful child has to do with mirroring and what they grew up with.

If they did not make as big a splash in their career as their child did, this makes them feel very insecure because they are status addicts. Besides flattery and bullying, status is their "be all" and "end all" in terms of how they build up their self esteem. Because of these superficial main building blocks for their self confidence, they can also fall really, really hard (which I will discuss in another post -- in the meantime, the point I will make is that most people are disgusted by these "ambitions" of theirs, so they can, and often find themselves, isolated from people with integrity).

Narcissists also use money as a weapon with their children, and if a child is successful financially, they cannot use that weapon very well either.

Like most people, they are also attracted to what they know. If your parent grew up with bully parents or addicted parents, they will gravitate the most towards children who are most like the bully or addict parents, and give up on children who are successful, sober and team-players. It depends on whether they were hurt by their parents or treated with reverence and how their minds dealt with seeing bullying and/or addiction. If they liked what they saw, they will use it and be attracted to children who use it too. If they were sought after for being a snitch, and a backstabber, they will try to be a snitch and backstabber between their children (i.e. supporting the bully child by snitching and backstabbing the child who is being bullied). If they saw that bullying and abuse "works", they will assume that bullying and abuse will work for them too once they become parents. Mostly, they do all of this blindly, without much thought, without any long term reflection, without any immediate care about what it is doing to their reputations.

Narcissists are known for being the least reflective (including self-reflection): they tend to act on impulse.

It is very common for narcissists to be treated in old age the way they were treated as children because of this blind attraction to toxic "parent-like figures" that remind them of their bully parent. Narcs not only want to be around people who are familiar to them, but they are also known to choose to be taken care of by them when they are sick, old and dying. If the golden child is not a bully, and was primarily groomed to parent and take care of Mom or Dad (i.e. the child who is a live-in caretaker most of their lives or who constantly checks up on Mom or Dad to see if they need anything at the store), then the parent isn't so likely to be abused or neglected by the child. But for children who were rewarded for bullying as children and adults, or deeply favoritized by the parent (not treating children as equals, or excluding the other children from the family, for instance), or children who became domestic violence offenders with a spouse, the risks for the elderly parent being abused or neglected is very, very high. Very few narc parents go to therapy for the sake of themselves and their children, or are willing to go, so they really don't know what they are doing when it comes to their relationships.

Therapy with an insightful therapist is one of the only situations where enlightenment about your upbringing and how it shaped you can occur. Otherwise, if you are a narc or the victim of a narc, your decisions and attractions can be to your detriment (victims tend to be attracted to narcs because that is what is familiar, and they figure that out in therapy, thus transcending it, and narcs tend to be attracted to people they feel they can easily victimize plus to narcs and sociopaths who will help them bully, and they rarely figure out anything). So the narc will either be blindly mimicing what they saw as a child, or they will gravitate to people who seem very, very familiar to what they grew up with. They often favoritize children who seem most like their parent, whether that concentration of attention be on the care-taking variety of child or the bullying variety of child (note: most narcs usually are attracted to a child who bullies; they also groom one child to bully -- I have a post up about why some golden children are bullies and others are not -- in short, it has to do with how the parent groomed them and rewarded them as children).

See my post on the movie, Good Will Hunting about how transforming your life and attitudes about relationships is likely to take place in therapy (note: this is my only post that comes close to what I am discussing here ... hopefully there will be more appropriate ones to this discussion, so check back for another link if interested).

Some of the other things your narcissistic parent may want from their relationships:

* If your narcissistic parent grew up in an authoritarian family, where children were expected to adhere to what Mom or Dad wanted at all times, where discipline was about punishments instead of guidance, or where their own parent was treated as royalty, they may want that for themselves from their own children (thus keeping the tradition of the authoritarian family alive). However, in this day and age, it is harder to arm-twist children into authoritarianism because most adult children no longer live with Mom or Dad at the manor; they are out on their own, influenced by many others, and often in distant locations, with their own careers and family. There are always up-sides and down-sides to styles of families. The upside of the authoritarian family are members who pledge loyalty to the family and parents, and the various hierarchies within it, and are rewarded for it by their parents. The down-side is that authoritarian families can easily slip into toxic abusive families who have a lot of estranged children and grandchildren. They can take back-stabbing to an extreme, and it is all too common besides. Authoritarian families typically are not families who listen to children or take children seriously, no matter what age the children are (they tend to be formal, giving much more advice than most people want to tolerate). They are families who pressure members to adhere to a maternal or paternal life prescription, which unfortunately can include child scapegoating (i.e. gang bullying by family members towards one singular member). A lot of abusers, addicts, shut-ins, ultra-quiet-to-themselves-rebels and family rejects come from authoritarian families. There are also a lot of lawyers, politicians and get-rich-schemers who come from authoritarian families as well. What is least present in these families are children who choose co-operative professions: orchestra musicians, support dancers (non-principal dancers), theater actors, common soldiers, Navy Seals, team script writers, mediation experts, equal business partners, a family business where each member has an equal share, working in the construction trade with a lot of workers who are equals, and so on. If you chose these kinds of professions, you are likely the scapegoat of the family. Being "head of something" is always pushed on members from authoritarian families.

* If your narc parent saw a lot of irrational punishments, betrayal, emotional terrorizing, the silent treatment, insults flying about, extraordinary isolation of children so that they are unable to form strong familial attachments, erroneous blaming based on erroneous perfectionism, snitching and extreme ultimatums levied at children from their own upbringing, they may feel it is their right, duty and privilege to do that to their own children as well. Be aware that most of these are categorized as abuse, so what they show they want is to retain the family tradition of child abuse. This doesn't mean that you are obligated to indulge them in keeping the child abuse family custom, and the more you fight against this programming, the more likely it is that you, and the better people of your family, will break the tendency for child abuse to keep happening in the present, or to be passed down through the generations. Also, the more that your siblings can agree that abuse should not be tolerated or allowed to continue, the less likely that abuse of any other family members will happen as well.

Beware: if your parent likes abuse and wants to keep using it, they will try to reward siblings who share their vision, and reject the ones who don't. Most abusers love pitting siblings against each other and comparing you to your siblings in a negative way to keep themselves from being accountable for bullying, or cleaning up their bullying. They will also try to do just about anything to keep using bullying, betrayals and triangulation, even to their own detriment (some narcs do commit suicide, even though their victims run a much higher suicide rate).

A QUESTION I ASKED FROM MY FELLOW SURVIVORS AND FORUM MEMBERS:

Note: because the following is a casual question, it is not a scientific study. I asked it to get some insights into writing this article.

The question was: "Does your Narcissistic mother get more abusive, cause drama, or get rejecting the more successful you become? Or does she try to make you her golden child, be a "stage Mom", get dripping sweet?"

The great majority of these members (36 of them at time of writing) said that their narc mothers vacillated wildly between both. If they didn't vacillate, they were flat-out rejected by their mother. None had experienced the full time "stage Mom phenomenon" without "the rage Mom phenomenon", i.e. some major rejections along the way.

FURTHER READING:

Why the Narcissist Hates You for Achieving Success -- from the UK site, "Living with a Psychopath -- When the Mask Slips"

Why Your Narcissistic Parent Hates Your Accomplishments -- from the Narcissism Child's blog

The Scapegoating Narcissistic Mother -- by Gail Meyers. She tells how her own mother would miss her graduations on purpose.

Here is an excerpt of her post:

... narcissistic mother needs a bad scapegoat in order to support the denial and facade. So when you start to excel it actually makes narcissistic mother uncomfortable because it threatens her assessment of you. She may very well also become jealous of any success you have.

5 Ways Pathologically Envious Narcissists Undermine Your Success -- by popular author, Shahida Arabi for Psych Central
The Narcissist Hates You -- by Alexander Burgemeester, PhD

The Narcissist and Children -- also by Alexander Burgemeester, PhD

Psychological abusers don't go for the weak — they choose strong people because they 'like a challenge' -- by Lindsay Dodgson for Business Insider

Wealthy Selfies: How Being Rich Increases Narcissism -- A Time Magazine article by Maia Szalavitz

How Being Raised By A Narcissist Damages Your Life And Self-Esteem -- by Kathy Caprino

The Inevitability of Fractured Sibling Relationships in Dysfunctional Families -- by Marcia Serota, M.D.

Yikes: Your Mom's Narcissism Is DESTROYING Your Love Life -- a "Your Tango" article

Step Out Of The Scapegoat Role -- from the "Claim Your Treasure" website

Why family scapegoats become lifelong victims -- by Lucky Otters Haven