A Neuroscience Video on Brain Studies of People with Clinically Diagnosed Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Brain Studies on Veterans and Victims of Narcissistic Abuse

Here is the video by Richard Grannon, and I highly recommend it. It explains so much, and I'm sorry that I didn't follow these studies myself. What an eye-opener!:

In an explanation about my own failures at studying the neuroscience angle, I knew about Dr. Lars Sulze writing in The Journal of Psychiatric Research called "Gray Matter Abnormalities in Patients with Narcissistic Personality Disorder" (2013). I discovered the article in the summer of 2014. 

Anyway, I figured that article was a huge breakthrough, but I didn't think to follow through on the possibilities of more professional science based papers. Since it was the first of its kind, I thought studies would halt there for a long time. Wow, was I wrong!

So many narcissistic traits are actually a brain matter, which changes things quite a bit (doesn't it?), including:

* Not being able assess social situations accurately when the narcissist feels under threat - coming from low volume in anterior insula. 

* "My feelings and thoughts are like your feelings and thoughts" - also from low volume in the anterior insula of people with NPD.

But before I go into more of the NPD studies, I'll do what Richard Grannon did, I'll talk about what was discovered with the victim's brains in comparison first. 

When studying the brains of the victims of narcissistic abuse (and soldiers with PTSD), they found similar low volume in the anterior insula. However, why don't victims act like the narcissists? 

From Richard Grannon's video on the victims of narcissistic abuse: 

(4:37)"Scientists found not only low volume in the anterior insula, but impaired emotional regulation and heightened threat sensitivity. It was also found in 2011 that the female survivors of CSA with Post Traumatic Stress have reduced anterior insula volume relative to controls. So, how's neuroscience effectively shown us that traumatized targets of narcissistic abuse effectively have the mirrored brain of a person with NPD? Perhaps in some sense the answer is 'yes', structurally, but perhaps not functionally. When I pursued the question 'Has the research indicated that the person with PTSD been shown to have less affective empathy, the answer is very, very interesting and very pertinent to the victims of narcissistic abuse. According to this research shown on the screen (5:32), veterans with PTSD showed altered anterior insula activation during empathy-for-pain tasks. They didn't lack empathy, instead their responses were exaggerated and dysregulated, often blending into personal distress. In a study published in 2009, survivors of trauma from PTSD did not show global empathy loss, but had impaired perspective-taking and increased personal distress when confronted with other's suffering. So it's not that those with Complex Post Traumatic stress responses lack empathy, but when they see another person in pain, it generates a strong emotional flashback response and they become very dysregulated in an exaggerated disproportionate way (video shows a woman crying). In these studies, they didn't seem to be able to adopt a perspective that allowed them to understand that another person was in distress without going into deep personal distress themselves at the same time. Thus blurring the boundaries between self and other. If all of this is getting a bit confusing, don't worry. The neuroscientists are here again to save the day with some functional findings. If you look at the study on the screen here, it showed that FRMI studies show that when PTSD sufferers see someone else in pain, the anterior insula over-activates. Now this is crucially different to what is observed in patients with NPD when the anterior insula is structurally reduced, producing no empathy, under-activation or only shallow displays of empathy. The brain of a target and the NPD is somewhat mirrored in structure, but clearly not in functioning." (7:32)

I would say they were quite the opposite. 

I just got through publishing a post days ago about how, as a Kindergartener, I would experience the pain of other children. One was from a girl in school with scraped up knees and another from seeing a girl on a playground getting her hair ripped out from a boy. I talk about that in the linked post. 

I was told from a mental health practitioner that it was most likely HSP, a genetic anomaly which I attributed to my father and my father's side of the family. I had it in childhood and way beyond. Only recently has it subsided a bit so that it is manageable instead of overwhelming. 

Then I saw this video only two days later, and it changed my whole perspective.

And now I find out that it is actually a PTSD trait. Wow. For me it is shocking because it probably means I had PTSD (or actually C-PTSD) by Kindergarten. Not that it is surprising because my childhood was absolutely miserable and barely survivable, at least for me. The only respite were summers where life drastically changed (and that's what I hung in for). I can't say I really noticed the symptoms attributed to PTSD until they got really, really bad: by age 10. 

Of course I didn't know I had CPTSD when I was a child, but when I found out about the physical symptoms attributed to PTSD as an adult, it was clear that those symptoms peaked in a huge way at ten. First came lack of sleep as it does for a lot of humans with PTSD. 

What it also showed me was how impossible relationships between people with NPD and PTSD are. NPD empathy is dead when people are under stress, and the empathy of people with PTSD becomes hyper activated - what a recipe for a disastrous relationship between the two!

You'd hope that the person with NPD would stay away from the person with PTSD, but NPDs see PTSD and empathy as exploitable. And they'd have to have empathy to say to themselves, "I must not hurt a person with PTSD." - clearly that won't happen if the empathy is very low or non-existent. 

Which brings me to the discussion of hoovering by narcissists with victims of narcissistic abuse. Women go back to their violent partners seven times before breaking free. The question has to be asked, "Why so many times?" And I bet those NPDs know exactly what buttons to push to activate the person to go back to them: rain real tears from their eyes and act like they are in so much pain.

Of course, it has to be convincing to the person with PTSD. If there's any of the "You are the perpetrator, and I am the victim", then hoovering won't work for the narcissist (i.e. pretending to be a victim of the PTSD person - having empathy does not mean empaths are stupid). Narcissists who are scary, punishing or vengeful will most likely not get their victims back either unless there is no immediate way out for the victim (like the NPD using false imprisonment on the PTSD person). Putting victims in extreme poverty sometimes works in getting them back if the victims are homeless, hungry and getting more battered on the streets than they were with the narcissist, but more of them stay away than go back even with those dire circumstances or they leave soon after going back (from what I see in forums).

But when an NPD shows up with tears, and pain, and an inability to get relief, the PTSDer feels their pain and takes him or her back. And then the abuse invariably starts again because even if the NPDer is in pain does not mean the NPDer has changed.

I think it is good for all survivors to be aware of this. You can cry when they cry, and feel the pain that they feel when this happens (you probably don't have a choice anyway), but watch that the boundaries you've built against the NPD's abuse don't melt away altogether. I have often been unsuccessful at it myself in the past (though not so much in the present), so I know it is really, really hard as it's natural in "neuroscience terms" for the boundaries between you and them to melt away, especially when they are in pain. Relief of their pain, if they are in pain at all, I figure, has to come in another form other than taking them back.

If they rage over the fact that you won't take them back, or if they threaten you, that's the tell tale sign they haven't changed. That's a showing of typical NPD behavior. 

I think that NPDers are sorry for people with empathy, that it can be exploited, and that predatory people will take advantage of it and burden and hurt the empath. However, it also works the other way around too. People with heightened empathy can feel sorry for people with NPD because they don't fit in social situations very well. NPDers often complain in their own forums that they have to pretend to feel empathy in order to make friends with other people, and that they feel awful because they have to fake it and lie a great deal, and that it is only a inconvenient exhausting cover-up.

There is a lot they will just not understand in conversations, and most people will usually choose an empath over a person without empathy to be their closest friends and confidantes.

In fact maybe NPDers are kind of damned in social situations because they have to be a lot more inauthentic than they'd like to be (hiding behind masks), and they feel they can't say what they really feel and think except with people who they think are hopelessly powerless to buck their control, or with other NPDs (who may compete with them and beat them at their own game, and abuse them, particularly if the other NPD is higher on the spectrum).

Another question I ask is if there is even more empathy in scapegoat children of narcissistic families than there are adults with PTSD? After all, scapegoating is a pretty egregious act of abuse, and it is happening during the most impressionable years of childhood when the neuroplasticity of the brain is at its most malleable. 

As I've hinted at before, I will try to look into more on this entire topic.

I know that trauma therapy is very much about the neuroscience of the brain. It takes knowing the brain of people who are experiencing trauma to know what to do to change a person from experiencing terrible symptoms into a space where they are experiencing peace and joy instead. A lot of the methods are about tricking the brain in such a way that you feel peace. However, it is a long haul. 

And guess what? You can't experience healing when you are re-traumatized. So the company you keep can have a lot to do with how well you heal, and experience joy and peace. 

Anyway, to continue with other data about the brains of NPDs that this video enlightens us to ...

With these other parts of the brain, NPDs don't have much in common with people with PTSD, only in the region of the anterior insula as discussed in prior paragraphs.

So here are the other brain studies that the video enlightens us about:

* Evidence of the shrinking of the dorsa lateral prefrontal cortex, an area of the brain that is responsible for planning, self control, and understanding others' perspectives. What this adds up to is a difficulty going from self-focus to other-focus, and poor impulse control.

* Evidence of the shrinking of the medial prefrontal cortex.
     This area controls moral reasoning, understanding what is ethically right from what is ethically wrong, and the ability (or inability in NPD) to take the "moral high ground" instead of giving into impulses that would compromise that. People who are moral are also capable of imagining what someone else is thinking or feeling enough to know that their own image as a moral person might suffer if they exploit or hurt the other person. What this means is that narcissists have a diminished capacity for this and can easily act on aggressive tendencies and solutions instead. This is also the main area of the brain that makes it hard for NPDs to take criticism (because they can't understand the other person's perspectives, and because their first thought is not going to be to "take the moral high ground").

* Evidence of shrunken part of the anterior cingulate cortex, posterior cingulate cortex and superior temporal gyrus. 
     Can mean grandiosity, "contingent morality or morality based on only certain outcomes", a belief they are right and being really, really stuck only in one's own viewpoint, a hypersensitivity to criticism, a tendency to break from empathetic responses.

From Richard Grannon (15:32): "Now the more science-y among you will be asking at this point 'Okay, this is all very cool. Was this study ever successfully ever replicated?' And the answer is 'Yes, multiple times with consistent results - by neuroscientists, Dr. Nenadic and Jauk. So, Nenadic produced brain structure correlates with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and then he did it again in 2021 in a paper called "Brain Structure Correlates of Narcissistic Traits in a Clinical Sample." ... 
     ... (the scientists) "cannot determine whether the PD, the personality disorder, is caused by these brain differences or if having the PD, the personality disorder, causes the brain differences. So we don't know which is causing which. It's a 'chicken and egg' scenario."

Okay, I'm going to step in here and interrupt because there is also enough evidence that the Golden Child in a narcissistic family system is the most likely to become another narcissist. This is the favorite, most often "spoiled child". There is also evidence that people who hold on to power for too long become unempathetic. Golden children have so much power over their siblings, too much even, and if they get in the habit of using it constantly, perhaps a whole childhood full of it, their empathy disappears. 

So it seems to me that it would have some, if not more, of a nurture component compared to a nature component (i.e. be more about upbringing than heredity and genes). But I'm not a scientist. I just like to research. Perhaps an answer can become clear after awhile.

Also, I have trouble with just chalking up to all NPD traits to an atrophied brain. Obviously it has much more to do with the brain than I otherwise knew, but it doesn't account for narcissists trying very hard to keep their abuses, lack of morals, and not having much, if any empathy, a secret from others. They know enough to keep secrets and display a personality style that others might like that hides the rage, the abuse, putting their children into awful rigid roles, and their addictions and affairs, and so much more, so it can't be all an involuntary brain matter. 

The other thing I wonder about is that alcohol also atrophies the brain. One part of the brain after another becomes damaged the more addicted they become and stay an addict (more or less permanently) until even the part of the brain that controls motor skills (the motor cortex) is deeply compromised. How does that work with NPD? My own experience with an NPDer with alcohol use disorder is that I was in imminent danger. The flight response I experienced did not even have a modicum of a double-take.

But, back to Richard Grannon:
"The brain is malleable. This is called neuroplasticity. And like a muscle that is practiced frequently grows in strength. What is neglected or injured atrophies and gets smaller ... So, if you're not practicing empathy, seeing other people's point of view, being humble, being kind ... if you're not practicing it, you might just actually experience atrophy. ... 
     ... "So the indications for therapy for Narcissistic Personality Disorder, as far as I can tell, would be to try to develop the parts of the brain that are shrunk in their volume through consistent daily practice, and progressive overload, much in the way that you would do strength training. You would need to generate neuroplasticity, select an attribute, and then work on that attribute over, and over, and over again ... attributes like humility, mental flexibility, the capacity to see things from other people's point of view, being resilient in the face of criticism. And I think that would take quite a lot of work to do. And neuroplasticity peaks in the first quarter of a life that we are gifted with. And then it drops off. So I wanted to know how long it would take an adult to actually start to make these changes in their brain in such a way as that could actually effect the person's personality functioning. And if someone was doing exercises like this daily with consistency, that the effect on brain volume would be observable inside of  six months. But don't get excited yet. To actually have an impact that would actually effect the personality in a way that was consistent would be more like three to five years. The question here is: 'Why is the theoretical human being with Narcissistic Personality Disorder that we have created in this fantasy scenario is doing this if they believe their Narcissistic Personality Disorder is an advantage to them and flawed forward/all, and they don't think they have anything wrong with them and that the problems are out there in the world ("the problem is with my wife who wants me to get better or she's going to divorce me; or my boss who wants me to change or else she's going to fire me; or on and on and on; it's all you, you, you, you, you, and why would I engage in this difficult, and what I'd imagine would be a fairly grueling task that's going to last years, for a fairly small, meager return on investment? Why would I be motivated to do that?")" .... 

Richard Grannon has a university degree in psychology and has been researching CPTSD, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Healing Modalities, a Narcissistic Abuse for over a decade and has written a number of books on the subject, including one that is autobiographical. He is not a PhD with a lab. 

But I do think that researchers who are not PhDs can offer up more ideas and questions than the people with degrees. We are allowed to bring up holes in the research, like why are NPD parents not monitored for child abuse, why isn't it clear whether NPD is caused by a shrunk brain or whether the Personality Disorder contributes to shrinking the brain? And what do we do with NPDs in society (other than elect them to a national office with terrible consequences ... and why are they elected in the first place, when the dictates of their personality disorder will always come first)? There are so many questions that PhDs don't dare to ask, especially if they can't know the answers. So I do think people like Richard Grannon bring something to overall conversations in this domain. 

Some Possible Things to Say to Narcissists (an alternative to the DEEP method)

 (edited)

If you must engage with narcissists, these replies may or may not help. 

Sometimes the gray rock method can't work, especially in a divorce where children are involved, so someone dreamt up the "yellow rock method". This alternative runs along the same lines, except it replaces the DEEP method instead of the gray rock method. 

As with anything you want to say to narcissists, it is always good to take these ideas to a domestic violence counselor before proceeding because narcissism can sometimes come with psychopathy and put you in danger of more of their rage, or violence, and escalation of abuse in general. 

Narcissists don't like to feel that their power and control of you is being undermined or slipping away, and they can rage and punish you over that. 

Psychopaths don't like to think that they don't hoodwink you and can abuse you over that. 

So be careful. 

In some circumstances these may work to get the narcissist to respond in ways they are not used to. It also takes control away from them, and gives you more of it. As they try to control what the conversation is about, what you are allowed to talk to them about and deciding when you should be silenced by them, you decide how much engagement you want with them instead by keeping the conversation on topic, making sure it's not just going to be a shaming session about your character (which most narcissists often revert to when they are not getting their way, when they feel minimized, when they feel insecure about how much you can be manipulated by them, when they feel insecure that you're seeing past their carefully crafted image and reputation). 

This method by-passes all of that. 

I found these on Facebook by someone who calls himself "Psychology Scholar". Like all alternative methods, even the "yellow rock method", it was most likely thought up by an average person who had to deal with a narcissist and couldn't do a full DEEP method. 

So let's get into it.

Following is what you can say to bring the conversation to a healthier level. It's not what they are used to, but it might help to disarm their propensity to start drama, arguments, getting their own way, projecting their own personality traits on to you, and keep you from falling into the trap of reacting, thereby feeding them "negative narcissistic supply":

* "That's your opinion. Not a fact."
   This keeps them from assessing based on opinions. It keeps them from assassinating your character (at least in your presence), and getting into a place where they are attacking what ever qualities they think you possess.
     Usually when narcissists attack you, they are unsure about their ability to dominate you and their hierarchical standing is at stake. It takes away their ability to control you, dominate you and hurt you. By making it "their opinion" only, it disarms their ability to put you on the defensive, of getting narcissistic supply via seeing you hurt, and makes them look like "the weak one" because they are operating from opinions and not facts.
     Most narcissists act on opinions anyway, based on their own emotions, so you are making it obvious that you know what they are doing.

* "I'm not explaining myself again."
     This is a type of DEEP method, but you are telling them that your "explaining yourself" has a time-boundary, and that you've stopped, and that you aren't giving them any more of it. 
     They may keep going into all kinds of paranoid fantasies about you, or try to convince you that you need to explain some more because they can't go on "limited facts" (breaking your boundary, which is also a test to see if they can break boundaries with you in general).
     But assuming it doesn't head off into that direction, with the more reasonable narcissists this method can stop them from twisting your words, getting into circular arguments to confuse or confound you, getting you defending yourself, explaining yourself, engaging with them in their argument tactics, and taking what they are saying personally. You just end your part of the argument by saying you are not going to explain yourself again and again, that you've given them enough explanations, and if they don't want to consider what you've said, then that it's up to them, but that you are done with going into it further.
     The less information you give narcissists, the better. They exploit information at some point to hurt you or sabotage you. 
     They may keep their end of an argument going, but if you don't respond, they'll be disappointed, wear themselves out and quit.
     If they bait you to keep you engaged, if you keep saying "I've explained myself and therefore have nothing more to say" then it can deflate them in terms of getting more drama and emotional reactions out of the situation.

* "That's not about me."
     This helps stop narcissistic projection. Narcissists assume you are like them and that your character is based on their own traits. This stops them from doing that if you say it enough and differentiate yourself from them.
     If you list your traits and don't bend to their often negative assessments of you, you can't be persuaded to take on their judgements, and you can make a stand that you aren't going to deal with their judgements either. 
     It's important to note that narcissists love to persuade others of dire flaws, but if you disagree with them, and keep stating some of your "real traits", many of them tend to slink off. When I did this myself in a work situation, the narcissist looked like they were "beaten" at their game of nailing me to their proverbial "self esteem cross".
     This person was stealing, but that's another story. At any rate, I reasoned to myself that the reason this person was trying to mess with my self esteem was to get my eyes off of their own "egregious flaw", and to be in a position of ruminating about "my character flaws", and constantly in a position of defending myself. 
     While they don't like the fact that you are your own separate person without their same dire flaws, and can't be influenced in ways that narcissists like to influence others, it can keep them grounded, that you are indeed a separate person from them, especially if you remind them of that fact. 
     In addition, it can give you some peace. 
     It's also a type of boundary (narcissists don't like boundaries, but it's healthiest for their victims if boundaries are set from the very beginning). 

"You're allowed to be upset." - when they are in a rage.
     This separates their emotion from yours, and is another method to keep narcissistic projections at bay.
     They will be upset if they fail to make you upset or to convince you that they are "the real victim". As in the prior saying, it puts a boundary between your emotions and their emotions. It also shuts down their proclivity to distract you from the fact that their emotions show (not just yours).

"Let's stick to one topic." 
     This can help to stop narcissistic "chaos bombing". Narcissists love chaos and bringing in extraneous matters into their arguments as "me attack, you defend" ploys. It also stops them from psychoanalyzing you, stops them from focusing on your tone of voice or facial expressions, stops them from bringing up your childhood, stops them from trying to embarrass you or bringing up things that they think might help them to shame you and break your self esteem, stops them from escalating an argument. You can walk away and say, "You didn't hear me the first time. I said I only wanted to stick to the subject and I'm not interested in the rest of what you are bringing into this."
     Narcissists like to control conversations and what is talked about, and this puts more control into your hands instead. They may do a tit-for-tat and try to dampen down even more of what is discussed, but it is better than listening to "everything but the kitchen sink" types of arguing styles.
     Narcissists don't know how to fight fair, so in a way it shames them about their propensity to bring in subjects that might normally work for them, but aren't working as far as you are concerned. 
     Warning: this can mean they go to others to smear your name because they can't stand that kind of a boundary. They aren't able to get negative narcissistic supply from you, or more chaos and drama, or more power, more control with a boundary that "sticks to the subject." And they detest boundaries anyway. 
     But again, for the more reasonable narcissists (narcissists without all of the traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder), it can point them in a direction that is more succinct, more about solving an issue (if they want to solve it). 

"I'm not interested in arguing. I'm interested in solutions."
     You flip the game they try to play completely in terms of "winning their own way".
     It does neither party any good if they get their way all of the time anyway.
     They very rarely have a script for solutions except for what will satisfy them, and it might get them thinking about solutions rather than more arguing. Maybe. At the very least, it shuts the arguments they want to have down. It shuts down contempt, It shuts down them using their handy "self esteem" crucifixion tools. It stops you from tolerating the negativity and "playing the victim" that they bring to arguments. 
     It can also drain their influence over you if you can make this method succinct and focus on positive solutions. 

"I'm okay with you not understanding me."
Narcissists won't understand you anyway, and they are not focused on that because power, control and domination are all that they want out of relationships (usually).
     Because they are way more invested in negative judgements about how others act and do things, and in what they think and feel, this lets them know that neither they or you are interested in understanding you.
     They thrive on being admired and obeyed too, and this statement makes it clear that you've given up on admiring and obeying because they don't understand you. You've given up on explaining anything to them any more too.
     Explaining is what exhausts most people when it comes to narcissists (narcissists are not invested in listening anyway), so instead of getting tired, worn down and reactive, it's a way of telling them that you don't give a sh*t as to how they twist the truth, project, blame shift, tell lies and don't listen. 
     Instead of admiring them, you're telling them that you're out of the game they are trying to play at misunderstanding you in order to enact some hostile take-over in terms of creating more perspecticide and negative narcissistic supply around it. 
      Someone who isn't in relationships to understand the perspectives of others is not interested you, in other words. 
     An alternative to this might be "I understand that you don't want to know me or understand me."
     It has been said in many memes, forums and articles that narcissists intentionally misunderstand you in order to manipulate you and to get more information about you to manipulate you. You fall into the habit of explaining yourself where the narcissist gets even more information about you.
     To my way of thinking, I think this is definitely true in situations where they feel they are losing control of others, and has a lot to do with why they erroneously blame with perspecticide, but I really don't think it is true all of the time. 
     Here is an example where they intentionally misunderstand you:
     They are feeling they are losing control over you. You are somewhat financially dependent on them. They want to rock your world by discarding you and withdrawing all financial support. This is done to get you back under their control. They can't figure out what to accuse you of, and to say that they aren't controlling you enough is something they can't allow themselves to say even though it is the truth. So they accuse you of an egregious look on your face (that never happened) they didn't like instead, or that you are thinking critical thoughts about them (perspecticide with erroneous blaming). 
     What they are trying to do in this situation is to coerce you to give them positive narcissistic supply by thinking well of them, and to get back into line where they can control you in a way that satisfies them.
     Here is an example where they are not intentionally misunderstanding you:
     You have returned from a business trip where you got delayed because of bad weather. You spent the weekend in the city where you initially arrived over a weekend. You are accused of staying away too long (on purpose), that it had nothing to do with flight scheduling and bad weather. In fact, they accuse you of having an affair while you were gone. They won't look at the evidence that the airport was snowed in. They decide to punish you by "going missing" themselves. They take up having an affair because they genuinely think you had an affair while you were away from them. Narcissists are often paranoid and they think others are trying to escape them (which can sometimes be true), or hurt them (which tends not to be true), and that they need to punish others in a tit-for-tat way by doing the things they believe you are doing to them. This shows more paranoia, more distrust, more projection than actually trying to misunderstand you. 
     It is often hard for the rest of us to tell the difference to whether narcissists in our own lives are  intentionally trying to misunderstand us or whether they are just paranoid, or into their own paranoia fantasies, projecting, mistrustful, or blindly self serving, or are incapable of understanding us (most narcissists are truly terrible listeners and also cannot get out of a "black and white" mind trap), thus it is hard to tell.
     They tend not to "hear" others very well because of the mistrust of others most narcissists have. 
     At any rate "explaining" in either situation is likely to be exhausting, humiliating, to go nowhere, and often not worth the energy, thus giving up and saying "I'm okay with you misunderstanding me."

IN CONCLUSION
WITH SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT MY OWN EXPERIENCES WITH METHODS

All methods on "how to deal with narcissists" have their issues.

Personally I have come to the conclusion that relationships with narcissists, and even the small progress one gets from these kinds of methods, do not really satisfy any deeper issues with narcissists. If the narcissists are abusive it especially doesn't help because no matter what you do, if they are in abusive phase, they won't want to give it up and the abuse will escalate.

If they aren't abusive (yet), at best, it keeps the verbal attacks at bay, and that's it, nothing more.

And sometimes the method doesn't even "help" with that, depending on the narcissist. 

What I have found is that the more quiet you are, the more you keep to yourself, the more you put your attention elsewhere, the more bothered they are because they can't control a person doing disappearing acts and not paying attention to them. The more engaged with them you are, the more they take it as an invitation to control and dominate you more and more. 

There is no happy place to sit among the spectrum between engagement and disengagement. I have found that it is always unsettling, always upsetting, with too many "fly-by-your-pants" unstable situations, where nothing works and there is always a negative consequence no matter which way you go.

Eventually you learn to resent the narcissist, or perhaps all narcissists, especially on an emotional level. For those of us who primarily look at the world on an intellectual level, we may not resent them so much as resign ourselves instead to this: "There is nothing that works. I don't want to be close to a person where nothing I do works and where there is that much contempt coming from them. I understand they came from a difficult childhood, but I am not prepared to take up that challenge, and maybe only professional therapists can truly tackle the challenges. I just don't know how to deal with someone who wants to control everything, including most other people."

When a person's main agenda in their relationships is to get power, control and domination, that agenda is not the right reason to be in close personal relationships to begin with. So how can these relationships truly work?

Narcissists are mostly trying to manipulate you into a sycophantic position and every time they do that successfully, you are growing more and more unhappy, a lesser version of yourself, giving up pieces of yourself, eventually giving up your convictions and personality, disgusted that you've become a sycophant to a cruel, deceptive, unethical tyrant, and sad that you are a robot, and if not a robot, "a rejected piece of trash" they throw out. And there aren't many choices other than those. None of it adds up to happiness, health, peace, feeling loved and in love, feeling trust and trusted - and what's the point of a life of that?

You are either going to fight for yourself and for your autonomy from them, or you are going to go all in on being treated as their a## kisser, and in the meantime gaslighted and insulted while you do so. You are going to be told what you are allowed to discuss, where you are allowed to go, how you're allowed to dress, whom to see and not see, and how you phrase things, and being taught how to please them constantly, dealing with triangulation, insults, sabotage, devaluations, discards and even their sadism in some cases. 

To me, that's all a nightmare I do not want to live through again (or again, and again, and again as that choice clearly is about that). 

To me, any kind of close personal relationship where one person is that dominating is not workable. Any relationship where one person is never open to compromise on any level, or listening, or where the person has to get their way all of the time is not workable. Any close personal relationship that hurts as  much as it does with narcissists is too painful to continue.

I don't want to be around narcissists any more.

This doesn't mean you have to come to the conclusion I came to. You can figure out what is best for you. I don't fault people for trying, and trying, and trying, to the point of obsession and total exhaustion, because I have tried too, mostly through pointless explaining, and a pointless full time lifestyle of "pleasing a narcissist" giving up just about everything that made me autonomous.  

With pleasing behaviors, I found worse outcomes, not better ones.

Same with explaining: in explaining, I found worse outcomes, not better ones.

With pleasing behaviors I found that they took it as an excuse to control me even more and add in insults if I wasn't doing things to "their perfection" - quite painful. A lot of survivors have "drowning dreams" when they get to this stage, and I had plenty of those. 

In explaining, I was trying to bypass their tendencies to put their spin on what they thought was going on. When all I received was more perspecticide no matter how much I tried to get them to listen, it again became pointless. I came to the conclusion that there was absolutely nothing to talk about any more.

With sociopaths, you get to a point of not wanting to engage in lightening speed, because not only do they want to control you, most want to hurt you too (and usually "take" something away from you or use you in some manner).  

With narcissists it goes a bit slower, but ends up in a similar place.

I found the lack of empathy in both narcissists and sociopaths too hard to deal with too. 

I was aware in Kindergarten that when exposed to a lot of other children I was suddenly thrust into their own pain narratives and perspectives. Automatically, seeing a scraped up knee of another child meant that my own knee would burn and ache. And for a long time.

Even when I tried to "will it away".

And even when that child was no longer in my presence.

As I got little older, I tried to stop feeling transferred pain. I tried to "toughen up" as I was told to do by elders, even entreated by other kids to partake in bullying myself, but I was never successful at minimizing the pain others went through, and therefor ineffective at toughening up or bullying with any conviction. I was called a "weirdo" for this HSP trait, more than anything else in my childhood. It made me feel like an outsider, a loner with a lone condition.

It wasn't helped by others I thought I could confide in about it:
"I'm so glad I'm not you! I couldn't stand that!"
"You have to stop that to defend yourself and get somewhere in life! You can't go on like this!"
"Ha, ha! You have to be a weakling then!" 
"You're going to be bullied with that going on!"

As I got older, I wondered how they could have that attitude. They don't want to have the feelings I have because they couldn't hurt people as well as they wanted? What? That seemed to be truly awful, and because I was looked at as being "weak", I stopped talking about it. Only as an adult I found that some other people went through what I did in this regard, and also felt like a freak in childhood. 

In some ways it led me to writing this blog decades later. 

Likewise, in Kindergarten I had burning sensations in my scalp for days when I saw one child try to rip out the hair of another child.

So being around people at a young age who didn't feel any empathy at all, let alone any "transferred  pain" from the pain of others, and who exploited my vulnerability as a child, seemed like a terrible trap, the kind of trap where I didn't know what to do to get out of, though I tried a lot of different methods, ones I made up, and ones others discovered I used long before they became published methods, and even tried more methods that are not currently touted today.

I have not found any method that truly works wonders with narcissists (or sociopaths, as the latter peppered my childhood more than the former). I haven't experienced anything where you can feel "good", "healthy", and "be at peace" with the outcome. It's always stress, and then more stress, and then too much stress where your whole body has symptoms and the "flight" response kicks in. 

In fact, for me, as long as the other person puts "control" first before empathy, the more the "flight response" kicks in.  

The only thing that seemed to work for me was in adulthood.

I got to know other HSPs and empaths. I gave up on narcissists. I'll let you know, certainly, if I do find something that someone else claims to "truly work wonders" beyond just some sort of "hollowing out" of one's own emotions (self imposed silencing) and dumbing down communications with narcissists to the point of hardly communicating anything at all with them.

In the meantime, the things I mention in this post I've tried for the most part, and haven't liked, and if anything, I preferred the more drastic DEEP method. None of these I'd want to live full time in, only in emergency situations. If it's your cup of tea, "more power to you", as the saying goes. 

What I will ask is if you try this method, or some of what is suggested here, how did it make you feel, and how effective was it? 

Once Narcissists Try to Hurt You, They Don't Want to Stop. It's One of Many Reasons Why Most Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse Eventually Leave Them.

(edited)

So, before you shame the next victim of narcissistic abuse for divorcing their spouse, or for a child who prefers to be estranged from a parent or sibling, or for letting a rift come between two best friends, consider that the reason may be that one of them has many or all of the traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and that this narcissist is actually on a campaign to hurt the person they claim to love.

And if they do have this personality disorder, plus some power over you, and they have hurt you once, and continued to try to hurt you, consider that narcissistic traits in the "hurter" might be the culprit.

Some reasons why narcissists want to hurt other people, and why they go on retaliation and revenge binges:

* when they feel hurt over your complaints or criticisms about them, or in situations they manage
     They take complaints and criticisms as insults to their ego, an ego they feel must be worshipped, not found to be at fault. When dealing with others' complaints and criticisms, narcissists rage. They feel disappointed in the messenger of those complaints and criticisms. For covert narcissists and malignant narcissists, they most often want to seek revenge.
     Take note however: most narcissists believe that you have no right to complain about or criticize them because they put themselves in higher status and value than others, whereas they criticize other people in extreme ways: insults, degrading comments, false narratives, smear campaigns with only a little truth, fantasy scenes which make you seem to be the instigator.
     They call on others to have a bad opinion of you even if they don't know you, calling on others to hurt you.
     In fact, they try to out-do you in extreme ways with complaints and criticisms, as well as take on aggressive behaviors. 
     This shows a number of things:
     -first: that they have narcissistic traits, and maybe even the whole personality disorder, and possibly even other personality disorders too, especially if the revenge is so extreme that you wonder when they'll be done, or they use sabotage, crimes, physical abuse, and physical injury or attempted murder  to make their point, the sign of either malignant narcissism or psychopathy. 
     -second: entitlement. Narcissists feel entitled to hurt you, but that you aren't entitled to walk away from them because of the hurt they caused. They also believe you are not entitled to defend yourself against their attacks, or to call the police if a crime that they instigate or get someone else to instigate against you seems connected to them, or to live happily ever after without them. They can't stand any of these, so there is a great resentment against others' boundaries. 
     -third: boundaries. They believe they are so special that they have a right to traverse and crash everyone's boundaries. This includes emotional, mental and often physical boundaries. It also includes a right to interrogate you, or demean you.
     If they are home invading, stealing, stalking, trespassing, and sabotaging, this points more towards Antisocial Personality Disorder or Malignant Narcissism.  
     
* when they feel slighted when you don't invite them to important events in your life, or to a party, and believe it means they have a right to seek revenge over it
     Narcissists feel too important to be taken for granted, forgotten about, overlooked, or to be unwanted company.
     They assume they control others more than they actually do (they even think they control others' thoughts and opinions), that they are always the most important person in the room, that people always listen with baited breath to what they have to say while disregarding what others have to say, that others will always be careful not to step on their ego ("walking on eggshells"), that they "own" the event to which they are invited to some degree. They are not at events to get to know others except in gleaning information on how much influence they, the narcissist, can insert into conversations. This is one way they find both new narcissistic supply and new victims.
     Since "not being invited" is a bruise to their ego, their highly crafted "perfect persona", and sense of importance, entitlement and grandiose visions of themselves, they tend to get hurt and retaliate. 
     They may do a tit-for-tat and stop inviting you to their events too, but more likely they will go way beyond that in revenge-seeking. 

* when they feel they are losing control and power over you or over the events in your life that they believe they have a right to control
     One of the big things narcissists feel they have a right to control are the weddings of their children (and to some extent their grandchildren). This includes the cake, the guest list, the dress or tux, and anything else they can think of. It's the rare narcissist who says, "You can run your wedding any way you want to. If you need my support, I'm here for you." That is so obvious in forums for child abuse survivors. 
     That is the more well known control they exert, but there are also plenty more.
     If you are in a close personal relationship with them, they also feel entitled to control what you say, how you say it, where you go, what you do, what you tell them, who you have relationships with, what career you choose, how you manage your career, how you dress, what you do with your hair, everything. They are even known to try to micro-manage situations they aren't part of and know nothing about. 
     If you are in a work environment with them, they typically use gossip, tell false narratives to the boss, sabotage your work, take credit for your work and other maneuvers to make sure they are promoted and that you are demoted (or fired). Note: if bosses don't look into situations carefully, they can be taken in by narcissists. If they are adamant that the narcissist is right, then you can't talk them out of it. You can read my post on enablers and flying monkeys in narcissistic abuse to understand the dynamic. The work environment is likely to get more toxic than less toxic if narcissists are promoted. 
     If they've gained that kind of control over you, and feel they are losing it later on, or if you've come upon a false narrative or two that they've told about you, and you are showing distrust of them over these facts, then they are likely to go on a revenge binge. 
     They don't like losing power and position, and have to know they are always going to get more power, not less of it, and while rage is certainly part of losing power for them, it's a rare narcissist who won't retaliate too. 

* when you aren't walking on eggshells for them
     Narcissists feel they are too sensitive, that they need special care and that your duty is to be careful around their super sensitive feelings. 
     Fine, but they aren't sensitive to other people's feelings by a long shot because of their profound lack of empathy. 
     This makes it very difficult to be super sensitive to them when they are hammering away at you with such callousness. 
     When you've had enough, they'll play the victim. The only person they notice who is hurt is them, always and forever, because again, they don't care about your feelings (because of their lack of empathy). 
     If you don't come rushing to their aid immediately, when they want it, they feel you are a calloused brute who can't toughen up when they hurt you. So they want to hurt you more. 
     There is so much hypocrisy in these situations that it is hard to turn yourself inside out to address their feelings when most likely, because of their narcissism, they instigated it, they took hurting you to such extremes, they never offered a realistic resolution, and all you want to do is leave.
     Their playing the victim in these kinds of situations perhaps nauseates you too. 
     When you aren't taken in by their being the victim instead of acknowledging that they victimized you, then they start playing the victim in front of others, inserting a lot of false narratives about what happened between the two of you, making sure they turn you into the instigator, making sure they make everything that happened totally your fault, etc. Believe it or not, a lot of narcissists still expect you to save their sorry ass. 
     When you don't save their ass, they go on a revenge binge. 

So let's say they have decided the best way to react to being hurt is to go on a retaliation spree. Where does it end? How much destruction satisfies them? And do they keep wanting to hurt you once they have started?

Yes to all of it. 

For part of this answer, I went to Google AI and Google Search. I give you the Google AI answer below in dark red, and you can search through articles through the same link. 

There's a saying, "Hurt people hurt people," and it often applies to individuals with narcissistic tendencies. While it might seem counterintuitive to keep hurting someone they've already harmed, several factors contribute to this behavior: 

Lack of Empathy and Self-reflection

* Narcissists struggle with empathy, meaning they have a diminished ability to understand or share the feelings of others.

* They may not fully grasp the depth of pain they inflict because their reality is distorted and focused on their own needs and perspectives.

* This lack of self-awareness makes it difficult for them to recognize the impact of their actions or take responsibility for causing harm. 

Underlying Insecurities and Fragile Ego

* Despite appearing confident, narcissists harbor deep insecurities and a fragile sense of self.

* To protect their ego, they may employ defense mechanisms like projecting their flaws onto others and blaming them for their own insecurities or past traumas.

* Hurting others can be a way to regulate their own emotions and boost their self-esteem, even if it's temporary. 

The Cycle of Narcissistic Abuse

* Narcissists may engage in a cycle of abuse that includes love bombing, devaluation, and discard stages, where the victim is idealized, then criticized and put down, and finally cast aside.

* When a narcissist feels challenged or threatened, they may lash out in narcissistic rage, which is characterized by intense anger and a need to regain control.

* This cycle perpetuates as the narcissist struggles to maintain a sense of superiority and control, and may repeat hurtful behaviors to ensure the victim remains under their influence or subservient to them. 

Pleasure from seeing others suffer

* Some narcissists, especially those with sadistic or malignant traits, may derive pleasure from the pain and humiliation of others, according to Medium.

* They may see it as a way to prove their own superiority and get the "narcissistic supply" they need to feel good about themselves. 

It's important to remember that individuals with narcissistic personality disorder or strong narcissistic traits are operating from a place of deep pain and insecurity. While it's crucial to acknowledge the harm they cause, it's also essential to understand the underlying psychological factors driving their actions. 

If "the retaliations" are scary and seem like the actions of a "disturbed person" and they are escalating, this article by Psychology Today called "The Hidden Danger of the Homicidal Narcissist

When ego threats, perceived slights, and romantic rejections can lead to murder" might be helpful.

Note: Most victims of narcissistic abuse tend to downplay the amount of danger they are in (meaning they are usually in much more danger than they realize). 

So here are some traits to watch out for to tell whether you are in any danger. The more of these things there are, the more dangerous the person is.

* A need to get negative narcissistic supply from you
Negative narcissistic supply would mean the narcissist is feeding on these emotions from you:
      being upset and sad: being upset means, to them, that they have control over your emotions, that if they try to upset you, they will realize they have that kind of power over you. It's another sign to them that they can make a puppet out of you. If you are bothered by them throwing out your clothes, they'll be sure to "up" throwing your clothes away just to upset you, and then play dumb afterwards. 
If you are sad, to them it means they have managed to effect you in a negative way. They may do things that upset you more. If you don't like your dog running in the street, they will send your dog out to run in the street and then play dumb afterward. If you don't like ginger cake, they'll buy you a ginger cake especially for your birthday. If talking about a certain subject makes you feel sad and you don't like to re-visit those sad memories, they'll make constant excuses as to why they need to keep bringing it up. 
     sabotaging you: a lot of negative narcissistic supply comes from sabotaging you. Let's say you get a promotion at work, and they not only do not celebrate the event with you, they also decide to rage at you and start an erroneous argument so that your attention is on them instead of your promotion. They might call your boss up at work and tell them you didn't deserve the promotion because you have serious psychological problems (when you don't). Then they refuse to talk to you for three days. 
     getting you angry: They provoke you and bait you in ways that they know will get you angry and reactive. Once you become reactive, they tell you that you have serious mental health problems to get that angry at them. Then they tell you the argument was all your fault without taking accountability for provoking and baiting you for a response. This is also a bullying tactic, by the way. 
     getting you jealous: Again, they provoke you and bait you to get you jealous. They talk about what great sex they had with their ex. They talk about how attractive a woman is at work. If you go to a dance, they spend most of the night dancing with others and keep looking at you to see if you are reacting. In extreme cases they have affairs and flaunt them in your face, but then act surprised, devastated and vengeful when you file for divorce. They can even say things like "You never cared about me to file for divorce!" 
     controlling the conversation to get negative reactions out of you: blaming you for things you did not do, blaming you for things you did not say, blaming you for thoughts you do not have (called perspecticide). Any actions that show that they do not value you, who you are, what you do, or what you have to say is usually to get a reaction out of you. Stonewalling and silencing you is also one of the ways narcissists try to control what is discussed, when it is discussed, and how it is discussed. If they don't get their own way in this regard every single time, they have a tantrum, and often refuse to talk to you at all. 
     sending the message that no one cares about you: This usually is a bullying technique meant to make you feel alone and lonely, without support from a single soul, an outcast, a shunned person that no one in the world will accept. Except that it usually comes with false narratives about you, and lots of smear campaigns to get other people doubting you and siding with the narcissist way before they want others to shun you. In other words, it is premeditated, an insurance policy in case you "buck" their control.
     Part of why they do this is to get you wanting to get approval from them and the group, especially their brainwashed group. This tends to work in their favor in the short term, but not in the long term. If this is the first time they do this, the negative reaction they want is probably what they will get: you'll feel alone, lonely and shunned. 
     If they keep doing it, you'll probably figure out it is an obnoxious game they want to play to get you afraid and reacting, and to keep you from seeking other avenues of genuine support, instead of the very tenuous support they show you.  
     getting reactions out of you where you feel afraid, intimidated, threatened, anxious and/or hunted: This is generally referred to as coercive control. This is the most dangerous of negative narcissistic supply, but I bet it comes with all of the others I have mentioned first or in tandem with it. If it includes sadism too, there is even more danger to it. 
     Their wanting to get negative narcissistic supply out of you doesn't get better, and can get much worse.
     The amount of narcissistic supply they get from others is never enough. They always want more. Now imagine that their main source of narcissistic supply is the negative kind. This means they'll be increasing the amount of hurt they give you, sometimes to the point of sadistic acts. 
When therapists tell you that abuse escalates, listen to them. Getting negative narcissistic supply is part of it. 
     
* If there is gang bullying going on, it can be more dangerous than one sole narcissist bullying you because brainwashed fools in numbers tend "not to be smart".
     They aren't being smart about what they are doing because they are brainwashed. They have given up any kind of moral convictions in order to please the narcissist. They have also given up on their own independent thoughts to act on the narcissist's behalf.
     The dynamic doesn't change because of the number of people involved (and the co-supporters of the bullying will justify each bullying incident)
* When family mobbing becomes dangerous (Google Search and Google AI)
* When the golden child participates in family mobbing (Google Search and Google AI)
* The enabler parent in the narcissistically abusive family - by therapist, Jay Reid (You Tube)
* Dirty Secrets: The Hidden Truth of Family Mobbing and Scapegoat Abuse #scapegoat #toxicfamily - by Rebecca C. Mandeville LMFT Scapegoat Abuse Expert (You Tube)
* An INSIDIOUS type of narcissistic BULLYING - by Dr.Ramani Duvasula (You Tube)
* Family scapegoat, prized, needed and envied | Diane Collins | TEDxFederalHill (You Tube)
* Are family scapegoats sometimes killed? (Google Search and Google AI)
* Signs Your Family is Using You as the SCAPEGOAT - by Psych To Go (You Tube)
* Are authoritarian families more abusive? (Google Search and Google AI)
* Are authoritarian parents more abusive? (Google Search and Google AI)
* Family mobbing and bullying (Google Search and Google AI)
* Friendship mobbing and bullying (Google Search and Google AI)
* Workplace mobbing and bullying (Google Search and Google AI)
* Why are daughters more at risk in family mobbing? (Google Search and Google AI)

* Sons and Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers: Who Fares Worse?

How boys and girls of narcissistic mothers can be impacted. - by Claire Jack Ph.D., and reviewed by Devon Frye for Psychology Today
* Why do narcissistic mothers hate their daughters? (Google Search and Google AI)
* 10 symptoms of daughters of narcissistic fathers (Google Search and Google AI)
* 10 symptoms of sons of narcissistic fathers (Google Search and Google AI)
* When your father is a malignant narcissist (Google Search and Google AI)
* My family is a narcissistic bully and keeps bothering me. What should I do? - Quora question
* What are the 3 R's to break the cycle of violence? (Google Search and Google AI)
* Domestic Violence (professional definition) - by Martin R. Huecker, Kevin C. King,  Gary A. Jordan, William Smock, for University of Loisville, Muhlenberg Community Hospital Greenville, University of Tennessee, National Library of Medicine (professional research paper)
* Signs and Effects of Workplace Bullying - by Sherri Gordon  and reviewed by Rachel Goldman, PhD, FTOS for Very Well Mind

* Insults are a sign of danger too.
     This means they are devaluing you. When they've devalued you, they don't care what you feel, or how you feel, or how much damage they've done. Not caring about how you feel gives them the entitlement to treat you badly, with even more insults - or at least that is what they tend to think. To them, you've lost their esteem of you. 
How insults contribute to violence against others (Google Search and Google AI)

* Arrogance is a sign of danger because it means the narcissist won't really hear you or listen to you because they have the attitude that they know best, that their mind and perspectives are better than yours. So if you want to tell them how you feel, grandiose narcissists will talk over you (not let you get a word in edgewise), covert narcissists will tell you that isn't how you really feel (and lecture you about how you feel something else instead), and malignant narcissists will tend to get angry because they don't want to talk about how you feel (it simply doesn't matter to them at all). 
     Arrogance tends to contribute to narcissists having confirmation biases and being blind to knowing anyone else other than themselves, so they will not necessarily care if they put you in danger, or someone else does. 
How arrogance contributes to violence against others (Google Search and Google AI)

* Controlling behaviors:
Coercive control consists of threats, humiliation and intimidation. Usually there are fear tactics, interrogation tactics, revenge tactics if you are prone to autonomous thoughts and decisions, isolation tactics to keep you from relating to common friends and family, and gaslighting tactics to get you to question your own mind. Coercive control usually goes with domestic violence or precedes it. Therefor it is dangerous. 
Managing you as though they are your boss, teacher, or spiritual leader, and trying to keep you from your own autonomous decisions is a common type of coercive control. This means if you have an autonomous thought or ambition you are being talked out of it to take on the controller's perspectives, ways of doing things, thinking style and opinions. Sometimes you might experience revenge or threats from them if you don't "do what you are told to do" or "think the way they want to think" or "feel the way they want you to feel". Usually this kind of action is only for their benefit, not for yours. They also tend to give you negative reinforcement than positive reinforcement to get you back under their control. Negative reinforcement always comes with dangers. 

* A Guide to Coercive Control

How to recognize this subtle yet dangerous form of domestic abuse - by Shelley Flannery for Domestic Shelters
Excerpts:
     ... Evan Stark, Ph.D., a forensic social worker and author of Coercive Control, estimates between 60% and 80% of female domestic abuse survivors have experienced coercive control beyond physical and emotional abuse. And a brief on the subject by Andrea Silverstone, RSW, executive director of Sagesse Domestic Violence Prevention Society in Canada reports more than 95% of domestic violence victims experience coercive control. ... 
     ... While coercive control can be found in any type of relationship, it’s most common in heterosexual relationships in which the man uses coercive control against the woman. In fact, about one in three women who experience intimate partner violence report being the victim of coercive control as compared with about one in 20 male victims of domestic abuse. Lisa Aronson Fontes, PhD, author of Invisible Chains: Overcoming Coercive Control in Your Intimate Relationship, says she believes this is due to pervasive sexism. ... 
     ... Coercive control may not be explicitly outlawed in every state, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a red flag. In a review of intimate partner homicides in New South Wales, Australia, 100% of cases involved prior coercive control while just over half of offenders had previously been physically violent toward their partners. In other words, violence doesn’t always escalate incrementally. In more than 40% of intimate partner homicides, offenders who had previously used coercive control against their partners killed them with no reports of physical violence in between. ... 
* Does coercive control lead to domestic violence (Google Search and Google AI) 
* Does coercive control lead to criminal behavior (Google Search and Google AI)  

* Who is most at risk of becoming a victim of coercive control? - Women's aid, under the article, "What is Coercive Control?"
* 9 Signs of a Relationship with a Controlling Partner - by Hilary I. Lebow and medically reviewed by  Lori Lawrenz, PsyD for Psych Central
* Recognising the Difference Between Love and Controlling Behaviour in Relationships: Warning Signs - by the administrators of National Legal service Solicitors (UK)
* Why is coercive control illegal? (Google Search and Google AI)
* Why isn't coercive control illegal in many states in the USA?  (Google Search and Google AI)
* What do you call someone who wants to control everything? (Google Search and Google AI)
* Do criminals use coercive control? (Google Search and Google AI)

* Isolating you from others is often part of every narcissist's agenda. Again, this usually comes with a lot of smear campaigns with false narratives that they tell others long before your relationship with them seems to be in trouble. Narcissists use smear campaigns as their insurance policy to hoard the people that you both know with fake charm and false narratives about your sanity, so that you will be shunned and unsupported by their sycophants and other minions when you do break up with the narcissist.
     If these minions are brainwashed for a long time, they won't want to hear your side of things.
     Isolating is another aspect of Coercive control that can be more obvious than other traits. 
* How domestic violence offenders try to isolate their victims (Google Search and Google AI)
* ISOLATION TACTICS – How victims of Domestic Abuse fall into the trap - National Centre for Domestic Violence
* How isolating a victim contributes to victimization (Google Search and Google AI)
* How does isolation lead to victimization? (Google Search and Google AI)
* Emotional abuse in intimate relationships: The role of gender and age - by Günnur Karakurt and Kristin E Silver for Violence Vict., and National Library of Medicine, National Center for Biotechnology, Pub Med Central (professional paper) - section on isolation

* male perpetrators who are loners, outcasts or have endured loneliness and social isolation for years or decades: The Cultural Roots of Loneliness and Violence

* Research with boys helps us understand the roots of loneliness and violence. - by Niobe Way Ed.D. for Psychology Today

* Entitlement can mean they feel entitled to do anything and get away with anything. 
How does entitlement figure into domestic violence? (Google Search and Google AI)
Can spoiled children become abusive? (Google Search and Google AI)

* Breaking your property is often a precursor to physical abuse. It is also a type of revenge, and revenge in any close personal relationship is definitely a more serious kind of danger. 
Property Damage in the Domestic Violence Context - by D. Kelly Weisberg, UC Hastings College of the Law, for UC Law SF

* Lack of empathy is another danger sign. If they don't care about you, they won't care how things affect you unless they are into negative narcissistic supply and sadism.
     Lack of empathy with threatening, menacing behavior? Particularly dangerous.
Lack of empathy in domestic violence offenders (Google Search and Google AI)

* Lack of any regret or accountability for hurting you - more dangerous. A sign of Antisocial Personality Disorder which can co-exist with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. 
     Lack of empathy in domestic violence offenders is particularly dangerous.
     However, even if they have a habit of apologizing, it doesn't necessarily mean they've reformed. It doesn't necessarily mean they have regrets either. This is especially true if they keep hurting you in the same ways over and over again via a cycle. 
* Lack of remorse or regret in Antisocial Personality Disorder - (Google Search and Google AI)
* The Remorse of Abusers
Too much can lead to more abuse. - by Steven Stosny, Ph.D. for The Resilience Center of Houston

* Criminal past, criminal tendencies, or a criminal mindset - even more dangerous. A lot of narcissists will break codes of conduct, like having extra-marital affairs on partners (the partner thinks they are in a monogamous relationship and is shocked to find they are not, for instance), or playing around with damaging gossip, or hiding addictions, or saying "I do" for the fifth time in terms of being faithful in their marriage, and insulting others in institutions like schools that expect polite discourse, but most of narcissists fall just short of committing crimes. 
     For those narcissists who do commit crimes, there is usually some element of Antisocial Personality Disorder. 
     The crimes can be taking things that aren't theirs but have no value on the lower end of criminal activity. Murdering you is on the higher end of criminality obviously. The amount of Antisocial Personality Disorder that is mixed in with Narcissistic Personality Disorder depends largely on what they do and say.
     A person that cannot take any complaint or criticism without wanting to hurt you in extreme over-reactive ways might be someone high in Antisocial Personality Disorder, especially if they cannot tolerate any kind of autonomous decisions or thoughts from you either. 
     Micro-managing you in extreme ways so that you are constantly being monitored and told how you are making mistakes, and raging at you about the mistakes you are perceived to make, and punishing and insulting you for your perceived mistakes, especially when you are a full adult, is another trait of Antisocial Personality Disorder. 
     Sometimes it is hard to tell what criminal deeds they've done until after the fact since narcissists also have a strong need for positive validation from society tend to put hiding their criminal acts first.
     The truth can come out as late as when they've been arrested for some other crime in the past, or it comes out in court from the prosecution lawyers that they've committed crimes before and have many victims. 
     So don't necessarily assume they've never committed crimes.
If they have strong Machiavellian tendencies that can be a sign of a criminal mindset as the focus is mostly on deceit and self serving interests.
     A "criminal mindset" can mean they are focused a lot on "getting their own way" in issues where property is joint, or children are joint, or where they make plans to "get" what they want out of a relationship without considering you or your feelings. 
     A "criminal mindset" is often much more focused on revenge over matters which aren't meant to hurt them. While normal minds can be focused on revenge, it is more episodic and rarely carried out. 
     A "criminal mindset" is often focused on getting money, material possessions, lying about other people to gain favor, and rewards at the expense of others. 
     A "criminal mindset" is often focused on getting rid of people or manipulating people to get an unfair advantage over them (power) or to take something from them. 
     A "criminal mindset" uses an incredible amount of charm, politeness and love bombing in order to gain favor and entry into someone else's life in order to gain something for themselves. They also use it in cases where their real motivations are not easily detected. Most narcissistic criminals are much more charming and affectionate than non-criminals. They act over-familiar, and over-intimate. The love bombing is usually intense, with a lot of flattery, a lot of mirroring of your likes and dislikes, and memes that you later find out were insincere. However, if you're not bowled over by them and their love bombing, or accept them right away (take things slowly), they can be rejecting, snippy, feel insulted and angry - that shows their entitlement. Entitlements is another danger sign.
     A "criminal mindset" is also about getting away with things as much as possible.  
     A criminal mindset is very unlikely to change. If you tell them how you feel, how their actions effect you, the damage their actions have done, or the repercussions in their own life, or with their own family and society at large, they are still not likely to change a bit. These people are "all about themselves and what they want" so much so that they really can't focus on others. They will not have empathy, and they tend to act on impulse when their needs become "overwhelming" to them.
     Some of them make elaborate plans "to get the most out of situations that aren't immediately rewarding them". It is who they are, in other words.
     They may promise to stop stealing, or stop home invading, or stop dealing drugs, or what ever their specialty is, but overwhelmingly they don't unless they feel that arrest for their crimes and attempted crimes is imminent. They tend to go for more vulnerable victims, victims who are not suspecting or show weakness at being talked into things. 
     A lot of people describe criminal narcissists and psychopaths as intelligent. However, committing crimes and lying about their intentions is not difficult. The difference is that if we act like they do, we feel sick. If they do it, they don't, and have very little conscience about their actions. They use your empathy and trust to gain access to you, to take from or manipulate you for their own gains. The real word for criminals is "predatory" and "Machiavellian" instead of "intelligent". The latter uses plans and deceit to get what they want, but many criminal plans usually can be detected by law enforcement, especially with technological advancements: DNA, social media and sightings, warning signals, cameras in every city and most businesses, drones and satellites, among other investigative techniques. Thus most criminals do not have "unusual intelligence" to go undeciphered. If you have a sense that something is "not right" about a person, or someone you know has the traits of Antisocial Personality Disorder, never meet with them alone. Crowds are best. 

     Narcissism is often described as a personality disorder with arrested development. When a child is born, they focus overwhelmingly on their own needs, and on getting those needs met by a caregiver. However, as they grow older, and as empathy develops in a normal way, they stop thinking of the world as "I got to have --" and "I have to get my needs met by others", and "I'm the most important person in this relationship".
     As the enmeshment with the caregiver weakens, either in a slow or fast way depending on the caregiver, the child also takes on more autonomous thinking, doing and planning. Narcissists and narcissists who commit crimes never get to this point. Their minds are still on "how to get from others" and "I'm the most important person in this relationship."
     Entitlement to control or take from others can come from having most every need and want met, especially compared to other children in the family - important distinction. As children, budding narcissists probably receive very little explanation for why they can't have everything and anything they want, (i.e. they are not taught "resource lessons") . Many of them are not taught basic lessons like: "Do not take from others," or "Those aren't your toys," or "You aren't entitled to receive more than your sibling."
     This is especially true if they are taught by example that they are "special" and deserve more rewards than others (arrogance).
     Thus when they believe that they deserve more than others, and also deserve to be "treated special" in terms of "getting", it is this entitlement, often mixed with envy, that drives them to exploit situations and others to "get more". If others show weakness in terms of the exploiter (malignant narcissist) gaining easy access, a trusting person can become a victim.  
     Children who grow up in narcissistic families are often taught that boundaries are not acceptable when it comes to family members, and this is what can cause them to be victims with people outside of the family too. Boundaries are one of the first steps to becoming safe and autonomous if you are in a narcissistic family. Criminals especially love people who have poor boundaries, poor self defense, poor self esteem, poor knee jerk reactions to being exploited and taken from, and high empathy and trust. 
     Criminality doesn't preclude doing damage to you in terms of taking your finances, your assets, your mental health, your trust in others, your peace of mind, and your very life. If they've gotten away with a lot of crimes, they can feel especially emboldened to hurt you and take from you again by other means. In other words they like scheming against you because of your vulnerability. 
* Can a criminal mindset contribute to domestic violence? (Google Search and Google AI)

* Domestic Violence and Deviant Behavior - by William D. Norwood, Ernest N. Jouriles, Renee McDonald, and Paul R. Swank. This research was supported by grant number 98–WT–VX–0005 from the National Institute of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, U.S. Department of Justice. (professional paper)
* Men are more likely to commit violent crimes. Why is this so and how do we change it? - by Rick Sarre, Andrew Day, Ben Livings, Catia Malvaso for The Conversation, re-published at The University of Melbourne, Australia
* Is domestic violence a violent crime? (Google Search and Google AI) - the answer? - yes, it is. 
* Narcissism and criminal behavior (Google Search and Google AI)
* An exploration of the link between narcissism, masochism, and crime in a post-incarcerated sample - by Hannah I. Piros , Amy Bauman  and Brendan Clark for Journal of the National Medical Association, Volume 115, Issue 5, October 2023, Pages 488-495, and Science Direct (professional paper)

* Physical abuse? - even more dangerous still.
* Rates of homicide in physical abuse (Google Search and Google AI)
* Danger Assessment - Women'sLaw.org
* Is pushing and shoving assault? (Google Search and Google AI)
* Is shoving someone physical abuse? (Department of Justice USA)
* Is pushing and shoving abuse? (Government of Canada)
* Is throwing objects at you considered an assault? (Google Search and Google AI)
* Is grabbing a hold of you considered assault? (Google Search and Google AI)
* Is spitting on you considered assault? (Google Search and Google AI)
* What to do if a child is punched in the stomach (Google Search and Google AI)
* Child Abuse - Mayo Clinic
* Definition of Domestic Violence (Government of Delaware, USA)
* Abuse Almost Always Escalates

Bad news: If you’re trapped in a cycle of abuse, it’s most likely going to only get worse - by Amanda Kippert for Domestic Shelters
excerts:
     ... While an abuser may say they “lost control” or “didn’t mean it” when their abuse escalates, that’s not true. Escalation is a choice abusers make when they feel like they’re losing control of the survivor or when they want to send a very clear message—they hold the power in the relationship. ... 
* Why would my boyfriend say he loves me but when he gets mad, he says mean things? - Quora question
* RECOMMENDED: How To Know If My Abusive Husband Is Changing – Claire’s Story

Learn how to safely observe if he's truly changing or if it's just more grooming and gaslighting. - Betrayal Trauma Recovery (a podcast, but by scrolling down, you can read the transcript)

* Any assaults to the face, head and neck - especially dangerous - can put you in imminent danger of losing your life, even. Includes slapping your face, digging fingernails, pushing your face, clawing your face or neck, touching your neck in an aggressive way, choking, punching, karate chopping at your head or neck, slamming your face or head into an object, pulling your head, kicking your head, face or neck, jerking your head to one side. 
* Assaults to the face head and neck in domestic violence (Google Search and Google AI)
* Is a slap across the face assault? (Google Search and Google AI)
* How dangerous is strangulation? Domestic Violence and Strangulation…4 Facts and 4 Myths - by Sarah Swiston for Wings, Breaking the Cycle of Domestic Violence
excerpt: 
The odds of homicide increase 750% for victims that have been previously strangled by their partner. If an abuser has access to firearms, the odds of female homicide increase by 1,100%.
* Domestic Violence and Traumatic Brain Injury: The Chilling Truth of This Hits Home - American Brain Foundation, American Academy of Neurology 
* What are the most common injuries from domestic violence? (Google Search and Google AI) - answer: head, neck and face
* Domestic violence, assaults to the head (Google Search and Google AI)
* Understanding Domestic Violence as a Cause of TBI - Brain Injury Association of America
* What to do after getting hit in the head? (Google Search and Google AI)

When you are in danger, often a number of these things are at play. Whether it's two of them or ten of them, it's still dangerous. Yes, some of them are more dangerous than others. But when I visit forums for battered women, most of them are surprised that their so-called lover was that violent, was that calloused about how the violence was effecting his victim(s), was that blind as to how "at fault" he was. 
     Most of these women are surprised that they ended up in the hospital with severe injuries that needed in-patient care. In other words, they didn't see it coming. And for a lot of them, only verbal abuse, or emotional abuse precluded this kind of violence.

Verbal abuse and emotional abuse are not to be taken for granted. 

FURTHER READING

The Psychology of Revenge (and Vengeful People)

When it comes to watching your back, hone in on narcissism and anger. - by Peg Streep, and reviewed by Matt Huston  for Psychology Today
excerpt:

     ... Not everyone is inclined to vengeance and some are much more inclined than others; additionally, certain emotions, such as anger, are much likely to up the possibility of revenge as well. People who set great store by their reputations, for example, are more likely to seek revenge if they feel they and their honor have been unfairly impugned. But the clear top-scorer on the vengefulness scale is the person high in narcissistic traits. Up next? The one high in neuroticism.

     The narcissist and revenge

     One study by Ryan P. Brown explored the link between lack of forgiveness and vengefulness; was being unforgiving a guarantee of revenge? It was true enough that people high in forgiveness were low in vengefulness, but being unforgiving per se didn’t predict vengefulness. The deciding factor? Narcissism. The people most hell-bent on revenge were both low in forgiveness and high in narcissistic traits.  ...

Narcissists = REVENGE-Seekers - Dr. Rhoberta Shaler for Help for Toxic Relationships (You Tube)

NOTE

I hope this post wasn't too link-heavy for you, but I thought the links were important to understand so that it wouldn't look like an opinion piece. 

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