PETITION: the first petition I have seen of its kind: Protection for Victims of Narcissistic Sociopath Abuse (such as the laws the UK has, and is being proposed for the USA): story hereandhereorsign the actual petition here
Note:After seeing my images on social media unattributed, I find it necessary to post some rules about sharing my images
I like these three channels on Facebook. I think the videos are informative and the comments on them tell me that many, many people can relate to them on these sites and in terms of how they were treated by a narcissist in a relationship.
I would recommend them, but I do have a few issues.
Most of them feature a grandiose male narcissist as the protagonist. Granted, they are the most common kind.
None of them cover female narcissists very much (note on 10/18/26: all of them are starting to cover all kinds of narcissists as well as parental narcissists and family narcissists, so some of what I've written here may be irrelavant in terms of the subject matter each of the choose).
None of them, as far as I've been able to decipher, feature other kinds of narcissism, especially covert, vulnerable, malignant, paranoid and communal narcissists. So the scope can feel small if you are dealing with these other types of narcissists and they aren't quite fitting what you are seeing.
Very few of them portray child abuse, or workplace abuse by a narcissistic co-worker or boss, or portray narcissistic world leaders, for instance. They are mostly about dealing with a narcissist in a romantic relationship.
A lot of them focus on lack of accountability in narcissists, and narcissists' penchant for blame-shifting and unempathetic responses.
As long as you understand that most of these videos feature a certain kind of narcissist, primarily the male grandiose type, the videos are informative and well done.
Here are the four channels with some links to some of the videos you'll come across on their channels (note, you have to sign into your Facebook account to access these videos):
FROM "NO MORE NARCISSISTS" CHANNEL (picture with explanation in the comments section):
What it says in the comments:
Your body keeps score. Even when your mind is still trying to make excuses for them, still trying to figure out what you did wrong, your body already knows the truth.
It's trying to tell you. Loudly.
Here are 7 physical changes that happen when a narcissist is slowly taking you apart.
## Your Stomach Is In Knots. Constantly.
You hear their key in the door and your gut drops. You see their name on your phone and your stomach clenches like a fist.
That is not anxiety. That is your nervous system screaming at you that you are not safe.
Chronic stress from narcissistic abuse parks itself right in your digestive system. Nausea, stomach pain, IBS flare-ups that your doctor can't quite explain. Sound familiar?
Your body knew before you did.
## You Cannot Sleep
You lie awake replaying conversations. Picking apart what you said, what they said, what you should have said.
"Why are you so sensitive?" "You always do this." "Nobody else has a problem with me."
Those words circle your brain at 2am while they sleep just fine next to you. The hypervigilance you carry from walking on eggshells all day does not just switch off at night.
## Your Hair Is Falling Out
This one surprises people. Prolonged emotional stress pushes hair follicles into a resting phase, and weeks or months later, it comes out in clumps in the shower drain.
You mention it to them and get: "You're being dramatic. Everybody loses hair."
Right. Sure.
## Your Immune System Has Given Up
You catch every cold going around. You take forever to recover. You feel run down in a way that sleep does not fix.
Cortisol, the stress hormone your body pumps out when it senses danger, suppresses immune function over time. When the danger is a person you live with, that cortisol tap never turns off.
Your body is fighting a war on two fronts, and it is exhausted.
## The Headaches That Never Fully Go Away
Tension headaches, migraines, a dull pressure behind your eyes that shows up most days. You have tried everything.
Here is what you have not tried: removing the source of the tension.
Narcissistic abuse keeps your nervous system in a permanent state of low-grade alarm. Your muscles stay braced. Your jaw stays clenched. Your head pays for it.
## Your Weight Shifts Without Explanation
Some people under this kind of stress stop eating entirely. The appetite just vanishes.
Others go the other way, reaching for food as the one thing that feels like comfort in a house that offers none.
Either way, your relationship with your own body changes. And when you mention it, you probably hear: "Maybe if you tried harder." Or: "I'm just being honest with you because I care."
Yeah. That kind of caring.
## You Feel Physically Tired In A Way You Cannot Explain
Not sleepy. Not lazy. Bone-deep tired.
The mental energy it takes to manage a narcissist every single day is staggering. Monitoring their mood before you speak. Calculating how to phrase a sentence so it does not set them off. Bracing for impact anyway.
That is a full-time job your body is doing on top of everything else, and it is burning through your reserves.
When people finally leave a narcissistic relationship, one of the first things they notice is how physically different they feel within weeks. Lighter. Less tense. Like something that was gripping them from the inside finally let go.
This post is mainly a link dump (i.e. full of links), but it is also a post about alcoholic family trends.
Although the whole blog is mainly about victimizing, domestic violence, trauma from abuse, PTSD, scapegoating, bullying, abuse and rage (extreme anger), alcohol can play a role in how much someone else gets hurt, and how alcohol consumption can contribute to violence, including domestic violence, and other assorted issues like the manipulation of others, the power and control of others, fault-finding and rage.
And in terms of family systems, the family systems can look a lot like narcissistic families. As in narcissistic families, there is usually a golden child, and a scapegoat.
However, unlike narcissistic families, the scapegoat is usually the middle child or the youngest child (in other words, it is more decided by age than by whether a child is acting sycophantic enough). But there are also other roles, with the addict taking up one role, and others in more roles than you would see in a narcissistic family: the caretaker, the hero, the mascot, the lost child, and the enabler.
All of this keeps the family enabling addiction, and therefore enabling dysfunctional family relationships.
In other words, the family roles enable addiction (of the addict from taking responsibility for his or her own actions, health and well being), and the addiction enables the family roles:
Sometimes family counseling is the only way to help an alcohlic family get out of the cycle of roles which enable addiction and enable blaming and shaming of members who are not a willing participant in terms of taking responsibility for the alcoholic(s). If the family members get out of role, give up their roles, leave the family to their dysfunction, or the whole family stops enabling, there is more hope for healing from family roles (which are never just, fair or an honest way to deal with issues and problems, especially when it comes to constant blaming of a scapegoat child for the alcoholic's behaviors, constant ignoring of a lost child, constant relying on a hero child to give up their childhood to be a responsible grown up for the addict and other family members, and annointing a golden child to make the family look much better than a family in utter stress and dysfunction).
A caveat: although these roles are more likely to be given to children, they can also be given to adults. The father can become the hero, in constant rescue mode, and the mother the scapegoat because she does not want to enable the alcoholic in the family and is constantly blamed for her "outside stance" on not wanting to be shoved into an enabler.
In this case, divorce may be the end result rather than a child estranged from the alcoholic family.
These are also good reasons not to enable an addiction (whether it is alcohol or some other kind of addiction).
According to Project Courage, an in-patient and out-patient service for addiction treatment, there are many reasons to get help for mental health and behavioral reasons that are the result of addiction (including Jekyll/Hyde behaviors, and sometimes criminal behaviors).
Overdosing also puts undue stress on family members, often leading to a family with estranged and divorced members who blame each other for not saving the addict, or for letting him go to the bar, or for not finding him on time when he has passed out and fallen to sleep in a snowbank and not quite made it home, or for not visiting him in the hospital enough while in detox, or for not taking care of him properly (what ever that might be), and any number of other reasons.
People with alcohol use disorder can often put significant financial burdens on family too over spotty work histories, not able to get promotions because of their addiction, not able to hold employment for very long, unable to have dreams for their life beyond their addiction, feeling entitled to family money where their siblings are left out, expensive rolling rehabs, constant wrecked cars for driving while intoxicated, needing money for child support because they can't work, failure to launch and so many other financial issues.
They also cite these health problems for the addicted member or members of the family:
Substance use disorders are a life-long battle that can bring family members into dangerous, illegal, and unhealthy situations. The long-term health risks of substance abuse include cancer, heart disease, stroke, liver disease, risk of blood diseases, dental disease, weight loss, and necrosis of bowel tissue.
There are actually a lot more risks to health and brain function than this article reveals, but even the two sentences above should alarm the family and the addict in terms of health, quality of life, family finances, and turning the family into an enabling cycle of more addiction and more dysfunction.
But in order to get into this topic, I thought it might be best to define what a person with "alcohol use disorder" (an alcoholic) is.
For a quick definition, I give you Google AI's version first (copied here in dark red,or go through that same link to find other articles): An alcoholic is a person who exhibits a pattern of excessive and compulsive alcohol consumption that leads to significant negative consequences in their life, including:
* Impaired control: Inability to stop or reduce alcohol consumption despite its harmful effects.
* Neglect of responsibilities: Problems at work, school, or in relationships due to drinking.
* Tolerance: Need for increasing amounts of alcohol to achieve desired effects.
* Withdrawal symptoms: Physical and emotional discomfort when alcohol consumption is reduced or stopped.
* Health problems: Physical ailments such as liver disease, heart disease, and cancer.
Alcoholism is a chronic disease that can be diagnosed by a healthcare professional based on the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) criteria. It is important to note that the term "alcoholic" can be stigmatizing, and it is preferred to use more respectful language such as "person with alcohol use disorder".
Other articles go more in depth. Here are a number of them (and I follow up with my comments below):
What is the Definition of Alcoholism - by Pinelands Recovery Center of Medford This article includes how many people in the USA have Alcohol Use Disorder, what differentiates a "drinking problem" from an addiction to alcohol, a definition of alcoholism, and why medical help when withdrawing or quitting is necessary (alcohol withdrawal can cause seizures and even death). Alcoholism - from Wikipedia This is a pretty comprehensive article. It goes into the addictive nature of alcohol, and that it can damage all organs in the body including the brain, heart, liver, pancreas, and immune system. It can also cause cancer, especially breast cancer in women. There are societal impacts as well, sometimes up to 6 percent of GDP for treatment of alcoholism, the damage to lives and vehicles while driving drunk, interpersonal violence while under the influence, attempted suicides and injuries from drunkenness and other issues connected to drinking. Alcoholism tends to be caused by both environmental and genetic factors. The article also includes why alcohol cessation should be controlled carefully, under medical care. The article also includes warning signs, physical effects, the psychiatric fall-out in terms of mental health issues like depression, panic disorder, anxiety, psychosis, confusion, brain disorders and dementia. Common comorbid disorders range from PTSD, the Cluster B personality disorders, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia and ADHD. The parts of the article I pay attention to in the interest of serving this blog are these excerpts: ... Alcohol misuse is associated with an increased risk of committing criminal offences, including child abuse, domestic violence, rape, burglary and assault.[72] ... ... Drinking at inappropriate times and behavior caused by reduced judgment can lead to legal consequences, such as criminal charges for drunk driving[74] or public disorder, or civil penalties for tortious behavior. An alcoholic's behavior and mental impairment while drunk can profoundly affect those surrounding the user and lead to isolation from family and friends. This isolation can lead to marital conflict and divorce, or contribute to domestic violence. Alcoholism can also lead to child neglect, with subsequent lasting damage to the emotional development of children of people with alcohol use disorders.[75] For this reason, children of people with alcohol use disorders can develop a number of emotional problems. For example, they can become afraid of their parents, because of their unstable mood behaviors. They may develop shame over their inadequacy to liberate their parents from alcoholism and, as a result of this, may develop self-image problems, which can lead to depression.[76] ... ... Severe childhood trauma is also associated with a general increase in the risk of drug dependency.[86] Lack of peer and family support is associated with an increased risk of alcoholism developing.[86] Genetics and adolescence are associated with an increased sensitivity to the neurotoxic effects of chronic alcohol misuse. Cortical degeneration due to the neurotoxic effects increases impulsive behaviour, which may contribute to the development, persistence and severity of alcohol use disorders. ...
On a personal level, I was told by a mental health practitioner that you can usually tell who has alcohol use disorder (the addiction to it and the problems associated with it) if they drink every dayand it is more than one drink for women and two drinks for men. While one glass of wine in the evening with dinner is not a sign of addiction, it can be a slow sign that the person may be becoming "dependent" on it in the future. Most non-alcoholics (people without Alcohol Use Disorder) do not drink every day. Drinking only on weekends, even if a lot, is usually not indicative of Alcohol Use Disorder or an addiction to alcohol.
Also, the personality may change with drunkenness on the weekends, but otherwise stays stable throughout the week. Personality changes in those with Alcohol Use Disorder tend to change, and can change drastically, sometimes permanently, as the person becomes more addicted. The brain is trying to compensate and chronic symptoms start to show up.
Furthermore, I was told that if a person who is drinking quite a bit more than a glass of wine at dinner every day, and is unusually aggressive or violent, it can be said that some of that aggression is likely to be attributed to the substance abuse disorder attributed to alcohol consumption. Many people with Alcohol Use Disorder become irrational and can see hostility in others when there isn't any hostility. Seeing alcohol-induced hostility can sometimes lead to violence (defensive violence, to ward off the hostility, or in this case, the illusion of hostility).
In terms of growing up in an alcoholic family when I spent a significant time in ALANONit was pretty clear to me that a lot of alcoholic families do eventually turn into narcissistic families in a generation or two.
Also, as ACOA defines it, grandparents count if parents weren't alcoholics in terms of being labeled an "alcoholic family".
And since children of alcoholics are more likely to grow up with the roles of golden child, scapegoat, etc, it will seem normal for them to put their own children in roles, even if they are not alcoholics themselves. As with the acoholic parent(s) or sibling(s) they grew up with, it is common for them to expect their children to perform "hero duties" or "lost child duties" or "enabling duties" or "take-the-blame-instead-of-me duties" (the scapegoat role) just as they saw in their own family of origin.
When all of these personality disorders and substance addiction issues are going on in one family, it can feel like a mad-house of controllers, arguers, speech interrupters, silencers, shamers and blamers, "you must ---" dominators, peppering so much conversation with unsolicited advice, lots of instability, suspicions, walking on eggshells, ultra forms of gaslighting, ultra forms of fawning and rebelling, usually some crime, jockeying to get attention or jockeying to stay invisible lest the shame/rage bombs fall, verbal and emotional abuse, family get-togethers with lots of alcohol or illicit drugs on the sidelines, and wondering whether to get out of dodge or "go along to get along", or whether to skip family functions altogether. What ever you do, it can feel like "trouble", like nothing is truly working, as work you must, since membership and approval in these kinds of families is tentative.
Anxiety levels can be high for most family members and that is never okay, or healthy, for anyone.
Each family member usually makes a decision as to what they are going to do with these toxic issues. And guess what? A lot of their decisions will fall into line as to what role they were thrust in. Scapegoats will usually leave the family first. They almost always do in most alcoholic, narcissistic and sociopathic families. Lost children will tend to "drift away" either psychologically (dissociating from family dynamics, remaining ultra-quiet, appearing to be most interested in anything but the family) or drifting away from the family itself.
Also, alcoholics can be scapegoats too. For instance, let's say a father is a functional alcoholic with a serious drinking problem that keeps eroding his health and his ability to manage his emotions. However, because he's the bread winner, he is enabled. However, the family also has a scapegoat son who they blame for all of the problems in the family, especially since the son is the only one who dares to talk about his father's alcoholism. In alcoholic families you are not supposed to talk about the "elephant in the room"; you are supposed to make life easier by enabling instead.
Anyway, since the son is picked on so relentlessly, he becomes traumatized and deals with the trauma by drinking (just as his father has). In fact, he is accused of being "just like your father! You have something coming to you if you think we're going to take care of two alcoholics!" so they throw the son out of the family.
He has been taught by example to get help and attention by being an alcoholic. And by the way, most scapegoats are treated with this kind of incredible hypocisy.
In terms of the hypocrisies: In narcissistic families, criticizing, insulting, derisive comments, gossiping, calling others crazy, and talking "trash" about family members and outsiders is the norm, but the scapegoat isn't allowed to do that, or even complain once about any of it or risk being shunned. "How dare you!!" is the reaction.
In alcoholic families, full time enabling of one alcoloholic family member is allowed, particularly if his presence is seen as "absolutely necessary", while not even showing concern, respect, or politeness for an alcoholic scapegoat child, teenager or young adult is common. In fact, an alcoholic scapegoat is blamed for everything that is wrong with the father's drinking and the family's burdens, and the scapegoat's pleas for help are ignored and largely not considered or allowed.
I'd say this family dynamic with scapegoating is "a much bigger elephant in the room" than any primary alcoholic.
So I will be discussing issues like this as I expand this blog to talk about the role of addiction in terms of abuse and toxic roles.
How to cope with a family member’s problem drinking - by HSE (Irish website) excerpt: When the situation is very difficult, it can be hard to imagine a different life. But change is possible, for you and the person drinking. There are ways to cope better when someone close to you is drinking in a harmful way. Building your coping skills and asking for help will make a difference. ...
As with every post, I have a "further reading section" below, and a video by psychologist, Dr. Ramani Durvasula.
Before I get into this method, it is important to know a few things:
* This method can be dangerous under certain circumstances * Most narcissists want to bully someone in their lives, and usually pick certain victims for certain reasons. The kinds of people they tend to choose are people who are vulnerable or traumatized in some way, people who they feel they can brainwash and fool, people they are already in relationships with who are showing some resistance to their control and domination tactics (who they perceive as recalcitrant or rebellious), people they are jealous of or feel they are in a competition with, people who criticize them (or are perceived to be critical of them). This means that this method may not work in certain circumstances where the narcissist is dead set on bullying you to get one of their agendas met for power, control and domination, or if they are constantly trying to manage most of your actions and reactions towards them. * Narcissists almost always want to escalate abuse, so this method may be ineffectual for those of you in a serious or dangerous escalation process (consult a domestic violence counselor or center before using it). * They have very little empathy for others, and the darker narcissists have no remorse if they hurt you, and this technique, unless it is used slowly over time, and is imperceptible to the narcissist, can make them more enraged. * Narcissists are highly resistant to changing their behavior, so this method will not change them; it is supposed to bring more peace to you however, but that is all.
One of the first ways that narcissists try to get into our lives is by love bombing us, or trying to charm or flatter us in social spheres. Some start straight in with giving us unsolicited advice (pretending to care about your issues and tragedies - this gets them into your inner circle, so be careful who you share your most personal hurts and tragedies with: this is how vulnerable traumatized people become their victims).
They build you up through flattery and idealizing statements. Alternatively, for those who are vulnerable and dealing with tragedies, they attempt to advise and heal you, then they bring you down through devaluation, destruction, and very often through discard.
Through the flattery, idealizations, and attempts at healing through advice, they expect you to be mesmerized by them, and to feel obligated to them. This is the stage where they over-advise, command, demand and get snippy if you aren't stroking their ego. If you don't spin like a top for them and adopt pleasing behaviors when they are insisting that they are the greatest human being in your life, they rage, devalue you and then do the opposite of what they did before: smash your self esteem and tell you, or show you, that you do not mean that much to them. They can act as though you don't matter to them at all, that you are dead to them (unless you will always be their "pleaser puppet", of course). They try to turn things around so that the relationship between you is 95 percent about them, and what they want, and only five percent about you, if even that. Most often they discard you after they devalue you, but they can also set about trying to destroy you, for not meeting their expectations. Then they smear your reputation and play the victim and move on to someone else they feel will be "easier" to victimize than you were.
Some of them try to get you back. But most often, going back results in worse forms of abuse than the last time. They haven't changed because they "lost you" even if they tell you that. Change takes a long time, and for bullies, a lifetime, but only if they want to change. "They are what they are", as the saying goes. Assuming you don't want to be swallowed back into another round of idealize, devalue discard, this method can work.
Some exceptions to the trajectory of constant manipulating and bullying with a discard is if they perceive that you may not be as vulnerable to attack as they originally surmised (like if you have more social support or financial hutzpah than they realized), they have been caught being abusive to you by others they wish didn't see it or know about it (where their reputations come under scrutiny), or if they feel you are competition for them but have superior connections or money (like in a workplace and where they might back off). In these cases, they are afraid of how having a bad reputation might effect them. In situations where they are more afraid of you than you are of them, the method works really well.
Most of us would feel horribly guilty if we exploited people in the ways that they do, but they don't feel guilty because their lack of empathy keeps them from feeling what we would feel.
Anyone who needs a victim, and anyone who pretends they are a victim (when they actually perpetrate abuse), needs to have special boundaries placed on them. That's where methods and techniques come in (like the DEEP technique).
It's better to know the beginning signs before we get into any kind of relationship with them, of course, since most narcissists traumatize who they choose to victimize. And there are certainly some signs, and if we are being targeted by them for love bombing, flattery, or unsolicited advice in the beginning, the DEEP technique can put up pretty strong boundaries to keep you safe from their manipulations. In fact, this technique is liable to turn them off, knowing that you aren't impressed by persuasion, and they tend to look elsewhere.
Beginning signs:
Charm: A great majority of charming people are narcissists. If they are a little too nice to you, and a little too familiar with you (like touch you on the arm, or whisper things in your ear), you may want to back away. People who have been burned by narcissists, put this first on their list as to who to avoid.
Love Bombing: Coming on too strong, idealizing, too much flattery, too familiar, stands too closely or gazes into your eyes a little too long. They push you to be "swept off your feet" and they are eager to impress you. The best candidates for intimate, long last relationships are actually people who are hesitant, reserved, somewhat shy, not bombastic, and not pushing you to get involved with them or have sex with them.
They talk about their exes as being crazy.
They often mirror your likes and dislikes. Most often this isn't genuine; it is to pull you in and make you think that you have similar minds, similar perspectives, similar life goals, similar morals, etc. Warning: psychopaths use mirroring even more.
Arrogant, Haughty, Bombastic: They brag. And they brag in ways that they think will impress you. It can be about how much money they have or travel they have done if they sense that you will be impressed by that, or it can be how many causes they are involved in if they sense that you are an empath. Arrogance is definitely a danger sign. People who are arrogant are usually highly judgmental, unempathetic, and entitled. Watch how they treat waitstaff at a restaurant. They are usually terrible about listening to concerns you raise. If they also start to give you unsolicited advice before they truly know you, or the advice is without considering your feelings, life goals, and the issues that are important to you, consider that they may be narcissistic.
Competitive Talk: How they were/are better than someone else at the same task. They exaggerate achievements and talents they have, or that they think they have (goes with the above).
Pushy: Narcissists insist they get their own way most of the time, except in the beginning they are pushy in some ways more than others. Ways that are obvious: pushing you into a relationship with them (trying to go fast), trying to make you believe you are "twin souls" or closer than you really are, getting snippy if you are holding back or reserved over giving them "the right of way" into your psyche or life, pushy about getting you to agree with them. People who aren't narcissists don't push you for information about your personal life, or push you into a close personal relationship. Also, covert narcissists, tend to share very little information about their personal life, but expect you to share everything. Don't share confidences with people who are haughty, arrogant, harshly judgmental, show-offs, pushy, who brag without the evidence to back it up, or anyone who gets angry with you because you aren't sharing everything they demand that you share.
Secretive: Narcissists tend to be secretive, and have done things they don't want you to know about or to see, but cannot stand being in relationships where others are secretive. They will terrorize you later on if they deem you have secrets from them. If you do find out some unethical things from their past, they tend to diminish them.
If you see a number of these signs in one person, the DEEP method can help you to avoid them, or help to fade out their attention on you. However, as I've said before, there are some dangers, and I state them in one of the aspects of the method below.
THE METHOD
The DEEP method is actually spelled D.E.E.P. and stands for "Don't defend, don't explain, don't engage, and don't take it personally".
Basically this technique is for denying the narcissist narcissistic supply and/or getting into arguments with them where they will demean, attack your character, call you names, deny reality, and turn it into a crazy-making conversation to attack, defend and exploit what you have to say to "win" the argument. And then afterwards they usually pretend to be a victim (playing the victim is all about an excuse to get sympathy so that they can attack you some more).
To make it clear, raging can be overt or covert. Covert raging is the silent treatment, interrupting, only considering themselves, gaslighting, stonewalling, punishing and is usually used by covert narcissists, although overt narcissists can use both.
However, if they are physical abusers, or they have threatened to hurt you (includes hurting you emotionally, socially, psychologically, and via blackmail, not just physically), or they are breaking laws, or touching you aggressively or roughly anywhere on your head or neck, or they rage in your face, or have sadistic characteristics, the DEEP technique could enrage them more, and you could be faced with a life threatening situation. In the video below, Dr. Ramani does not make mention of that, but from a domestic violence perspective, it is important to know this.
It is always best to go to a domestic violence center or therapist to help you assess the dangers, and ask them if this technique is best for you and your circumstances.
Also psychopathic abusers and abusers who have malignant narcissism have the same traits as the narcissists I talk about in this post, but unlike plain-envelope narcissists, if they hurt you, they will have no remorse. And they often get satisfaction out of being spiteful, vindictive, sadistic and breaking the law without getting caught. Often you can't tell whether they are psychopaths or malignant narcissists unless you know them really, really well (including all of the tactics they use to dominate and control youand hurt you).
The issue of why this can turn dangerous is that part of obtaining narcissistic supply is getting a negative reaction out of you. This can be crying, anger, shock at what they are doing or have done, fear, defending yourself, or pleading. If you don't give them the narcissistic supply they demand, or don't respond to them at all, they can get dangerous. This is why it is always good to know who you are dealing with and professionals who work with domestic violence victims will usually know more about the signs of danger than victims do (victims can also downplay what they are going through for a number of reasons: hope, cognitive dissonance, unaware of the love bombing tactic, and so on).
I personally prefer Dr. Carter's methods for dealing with the "defend" part of this method, which I go into in the next chapter.
So to get down to why the DEEP technique can be effective, depending on who you are dealing with, here are some of the reasons:
don't defend
If you don't defend yourself, which is what they expect to keep the argument and the trashing of your self esteem going, they feel frustrated. And some of them get nervous. When they get frustrated, they may keep trying to hurt you in other ways that they hadn't thought of just to see if you'll react to that instead, and you just stand there unaffected.
Some narcissists who are lower on the scale (i.e. who don't possess all of the traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder) may feel embarrassed that they attacked you and lead the conversation away from the direction of more attacks, especially if you have some clout socially, but others may escalate. If they escalate, you can always leave.
One reason why your defenses lead to more of their attacks is that they don't really understand how most conflicts are settled: by talking things out, by being thoughtful about each other's needs, feelings and desires and finding a way between yourselves to please both parties, by talking about resolutions to the conflict which often includes compromise (they hate compromise, or even the suggestion of it!).
Instead they view conflicts as "attack fests" (on your decisions, your character, your mind, your differences from them, your behaviors, and your self esteem). They also think that conflicts mean that they have to "win". Win what? Win you totally over to their perspective, win at controlling what you do (power, domination and control), winning at what their desires are and what role you will fulfill in making their desires come true for their life. So the DEEP technique is to bypass all of that, and by not defending yourself, you are not giving them ammunition to use your defenses for more attacks.
It is easier said than done. Attacks are pretty unpleasant, and you are going against the grain of defending yourself by letting them tear you to shreds as if you are an onlooker to it. In public this can be pretty unnerving, and in private it can be scary and denies you emotions by giving them free reign to have all of the unregulated emotions that they want to express, while you get to express none. It is a type of suppression which can cause trauma. The more oppression you receive, and the more suppressive your responses are, the more trauma symptoms you will have. So, that is the drawback to this particular part of the DEEP technique.
However, people who have tried this method say that they just go inside their own minds and dream of pretty pictures or something more than the unpleasant situation. Or they observe as a parent would: "My child is having a temper tantrum and I'm just going to wait it out until they calm down." Some people decide their perpetrators are "crazy" or "funny" for going off the rails over so much B.S.
So it depends on your countenance too.
Again, if you have PTSD, letting them go off the rails about your character and not defending yourself can be extremely triggering. Consider that this might not be the best relationship to put your energy towards instead. Or perhaps only see them in big crowds, talk about the weather and greatly limit your contact.
So it takes a person who is calm, cool and collected, someone without PTSD, like a comedian who is playing "the straight" role to the character playing the rage-a-holic gone off the deep end with over-dramatic displays and ridiculous reasons to become so unhinged. Even the silent treatment, the covert version of rage, is quite over-dramatic as it is usually over things that tend to be silly, or small, or just to drum up attention, like they don't feel they have enough power over you, and many of the reasons can even be more inconsequential than that, in the grand scheme of things. The silent treatment is easier to deal with, however, than overt loud raging with pushing, or screaming in your ear, for instance.
Dr. Carter's way is to defend yourself in these ways: * they try to trash your self esteem or shame you in an angry cruel way: you respond like the adult that you are that you feel fine with the way you are, and that you don't plan on changing. * they tell you that you are crazy (the typical gaslighting statement in just about every conflict they have): you tell them that you are perfectly sane and do not plan on continuing this conversation with them. * they say: "You are so stupid! If you only did it this way then ---": you tell them that you are fine with the decisions you make, period. If they keep goading you about how stupid you are by not taking the road they want you to take, you keep telling them over and over again that you are fine with the decisions you make, with the way you are, and with the way that you conduct yourself. and so on ...
They don't know what to do with that, and every controlling, manipulative tactic they use suddenly becomes "useless" to them. That kind of wall of resistance, and the results afterward, are better, I think, than being silent.
In other words, be a person of high ethics and intentions, and not let them teach you "behavior lessons" or talk you into being crazy and stupid (it doesn't make sense anyway when their behavior is often so abusive, threatening, raging, insulting and offensive).
The defense is always that you are okay with who you are and what you are doing (and if you have ethics, honesty and dignity, you can even be proud of who you are, and their opinions shouldn't effect you).
If you are strong and confident in what you say, and if you continue to hold the line on it, narcissists are more likely to leave you alone, or lose interest in you. So, in a way, I think Dr. Carter's method can work better to stop the arguments and their baiting you for arguments than not saying anything at all.
Instead of denying them the narcissistic supply by being silent, they know where you stand, and that it won't change.
The reason why his method may be more effective is because the narcissist can feel challenged by your silence, or egg you on trying to find holes in your armor of silence, whereas if you state good boundaries (that you are not, and will not, be effected by their rages and needs for narcissistic supply), they will quickly leave to find people who are more more willing to give them that supply, who are more vulnerable to being manipulated, who will listen and ponder their words and attacks, and who may even beg them to stop being cruel. Unfortunately we don't wish narcissists to dish out their poison to others, just as we might wish a bright star would not be swallowed up by a black hole, but they are predatory-like in their thinking, and the thing they need to avoid first and foremost, is you.
The rest of the technique makes a lot more sense (and I would prefer it was the "EEP technique", rather than the "DEEP technique"):
don't explain
Trying to explain anything to a narcissist is like this:
Your explanations are going to go through the narcissism mechanisms of their mind, and come out looking totally different, with negative connotations hanging from every part of it, than what you put in. It'll look like a confusing mess.
On the flip side, if they are idealizing you, anything you put in is also going to look idealized too:
They judge too much on character (and what they think your character might be) way before they look at your words and intentions, so whatever character they think you are, is going to influence what they think of your words to such an extent that it is also likely to come out of their understanding like a confusing mess too.
This cartoon, found on Facebook, says what I have to say in a pretty succinct way:
However, just make that circle of what is understood ten times smaller for narcissists, and an imperceivably tiny dot for psychopaths!
By not explaining much beyond the usual small talk, you don't have to deal with how they manipulate your explanations to go with what they think your character is. It skips all of that.
don't engage
This one makes sense too.
It should be obvious why you can't reach out to them to engage together to find solutions to the conflicts between you. If you have read my blog, they won't have any part of that, and they will fight tooth and nail from going down that path, and will instead fight dirty to gain superiority over you. They want things "just right for them" even if it means it is not right for you. So, "Let's work out our problems together" is just opening the door to a wolf who has wanted to attack you, and now has the chance to do it.
The other thing is that if you engage them, it means - to them - that you are weak and a glutton for punishment. Narcissists traumatize people with the exception of psychopaths. Psychopaths can take it because they have different autonomic nervous systems than we do. However one narcissist can even traumatize another narcissist, but it is definitely preferable for them to be in the ring with other narcissists, their heavy-weight equals, rather than with us.
Also they are control freaks, and they like being in the driver's seat making all of the plans about who will see whom, who should talk to which person about which subject, and how so-and-so should "behave", so if they want to see you, they will make it known, believe me. If they are getting narcissistic supply somewhere else, hope that they have met the most attractive seductive co-narcissist on the planet, and they do not come knocking on your door.
If you have tried engaging with them in a good faith effort to work out your differences, and they don't reply, you don't need to keep trying. Let it go unresolved if you can. Most likely it is because they only want things to go their way, including any truces.
It sets the responsibility of engaging on them.
It is the best procedure for anyone who is a control freak anyway.
So not engaging sounds right to me.
don't personalize
Personalizing what they say to you: all of the negative things they say to you and about you - including insults, all of the controlling things they say to you, all of the micromanaging of your life they try to do, all of the triangulation they try to do to make you feel that you are less than so-and-so (i.e. "You aren't as good as ---"), all of the escalating they do in terms of abuse, and all of the unethical, unlawful things they do aren't your fault. Need convincing? Go here. I'll have a post on why they hate and what they hate about other people in a future post, as this will be another post devoted, in part, to why it isn't your fault, so you can look forward to that.
Narcissists and sociopaths want badly for you to personalize what they do to you and what they say to you (that it is "all your fault"). So when you don't personalize it, they tend to have a narcissistic collapse(note: the linked article is about "the collapse" as it pertains to public humiliation, however, not getting victims to believe that they, the victims, are at fault, can create a narcissistic collapse too). They haven't been successful in making you their narcissistic supply or scapegoat for rages and bullying.
If you want to make it clear to a narcissist that they shouldn't go to you for scapegoating and commanding, then not taking what they say personally will get them looking for supply somewhere else.
Anyway, how can you personalize what they do and say? Look where they are: probably pretty far down on the ethics ladder. Unless they have a lot of integrity, honor and self reflection, how can you take them at all seriously? And by the way, people who are abusive and unethical are usually very, very unsatisfied, grumpy, complaining and punishing about how other people act and behave (but give themselves constant excuses and breaks, of course).
Instead of taking what they have to say about you personally, why not become aware of just how arrogant, judgmental and prejudiced they are. Then you can decide whether being as judgmental as they are, as prejudiced and arrogant as they are has any warrant. And make it a years-long study so that you can take a breather from them talking you into things.
In my view, the only people who are worth listening to about "how you act" are high in morality, honesty and ethics, high in self reflection and understanding nuances of behavioral issues, are kind, patient and truly understand your point of view. They are not controlling, dominating, hypocritical, or have relationships where agendas are the primary focus.
I'm all for "not personalizing" when it comes to narcissists, and finding your true authentic self instead. Not being splashed with their views of you all of the time helps you find your authentic self too.
Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a psychologist and university professor has this video on the technique:
So, how do people like the D.E.E.P. technique? Some of the comments below her video (or if you want to see them yourself on her You Tube channel: click on video or see my choices below) Note: each one is a different person:
* Don't Defend. Don't Explain. Don't Engage. Don't Personalize. Being Authentic is hard when you know people are using it against you. But its not forever! Others will see you and the difference in communication and the ability to be you will be night and day! Don't ignore the red flags.
* I think the narcissist must feel very humiliated when they can't rattle you or get you to react anymore. What else do they have when they lose that power over you.
* My therapist told me, "When he starts with his disruption, don't defend yourself. Just look at him and think, this is who he is." It took me a while, but now I get it. Thank you Dr. Ramani for supporting me. I couldn't do it without you. You've changed my life for the better!
* They're so textbook, so, we start a world wide search for someone who 'has not' been called crazy by their narc?
* As I watch dr. Ramani’s videos I realize I made so many mistakes and wasted so much energy while going nuts trying to explain and trying to defend myself in my almost 7 year relationship with my ex narcissist . It’s all so clear now...I was not crazy ! 1 month and counting the blessings !
* Living with a narcissist is like "living in an eternal kangaroo court" OMG so brilliant!
* I don't need the deep technique, I need the "don't start laughing" technique. It's just, ever since I've learned about narcissism and what makes it characteristic, I just can't stop myself from bursting into tears from laughing so hard when they go into narc mode. It's like they all follow a manual or a narc skript and they're so stuck in it that I can't help but laugh like an idiot. I was raised thinking that every single one of us is absolutely unique and then they're just all the same, LITERALLY!!!
* My mom is a grandiose narcissist. When I was younger and tired of dealing with her devaluing phases, I’d just stare at her as she was calling me names and accusing me of doing and feeling things I never did. I was grey rocking and didn’t even know. That made her even more furious. She used to tell me to stop staring her with my “snake eyes”
* Yup, I used to defend myself, try to explain so he could understand me and why I was hurt by his behaviours. I used to engage so we could sort out issues and it was personalised because our relationship was so important to me, I wanted us to resolve and learn from our fights. In the end, I was blamed for my reactions. He discarded me because he was “scared of my reactions” and that I “loved to argue”. Better yet, if we could have argued in his language “he would win and not me”. It was never about winning - for me, it was what I thought was for love.
* Nope, every conversation for these people is about winning. Life is a competition for them.
* I wish I knew this as a child. My mother accused me of terrible things on a regular basis and defending myself caused her to harm me emotionally and physically. Was terrible and scary.
* D.E.E.P. Seeing it, hearing it, practicing it, over and over (40 times and above, I think is the number of repetitions needed to make deep changes) will be such a useful tool to remind me over and over again to not play games with a narcissist. This reminds me of the book entitled “Games People Play”. Thanks as always
* Don't Defend, Explain, Engage, Personalise Deep = the authentic person's response to the narc's DARVO encompassing Deny, Attack and Reverse Victim Offender. Thank you Dr Ramani
RECOMMENDED: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - by the administrators of Health Guide.org the recommendations are similar to the DEEP technique but have some additions and ways of thinking about situations you may encounter with narcissists (such as arguments, their fantasies, and exploits)
