Perspecticide and Being Invalidated Often Feels Unsafe and Even Downright Dangerous On the Receiving End. Comes With a Discussion on Narcissism.

Note: this post is a deep dive into this subject, so you may want to read it in parts.

To understand what perspecticide and invalidation are, you may want to go to my post on the subject first HERE. 

If you've experienced a lot of invalidation, hopefully you will find this post helpful as I use a lot of links (and even a short personal story) to help validate what you may be experiencing, feeling and seeing. 

So do children feel unsafe with adults who invalidate their experiences? Yes. This is the shorthand version of the Google AI article (in dark red):

Emotional invalidation—dismissing, minimizing, or belittling a child's feelings—disrupts their fundamental sense of security and trust.

* Threat to Attachment: A child's nervous system interprets the withdrawal of emotional warmth as a threat to survival, as they rely entirely on caregivers for protection.
* Loss of Predictability: Chronic invalidation removes the "foundation for trust," making relationships feel unpredictable and unreliable.
* Hypervigilance: Children may develop a state of "walking on eggshells ... 
* Internalized Fear ... 

Long terms impacts are self doubt, shame and low worth and suppression: They may "push down" emotions to maintain a connection with the adult, which can lead to later Complex PTSD (CPTSD) symptoms.

How about in long term adult relationships? Can perspecticide and being invalidated feel unsafe or dangerous? Yes. 

Many of the same consequences for invalidating in adult relationships are the same as for children with some differences (the list of differences for adults are as follows):

The nervous system response is manifested as physical pain. Repeated invalidation can trigger a permanent fight-flight-freeze response. 

Psycholgical Erasure: Chronic invalidation acts like an "emotional eraser," making you feel as though your reality doesn't count. This "existential wound" can make you feel that your very right to exist is being threatened.

Emotional Suppression: You've learned it is "safer" to stay silent or hide your needs to avoid being judged or told you are "too sensitive". - this is similar to a "walking on eggshells" environment that a child experiences. 

Physical Symptoms: Living in this state often manifests as a tight chest, shallow breathing, chronic anxiety, or insomnia. - These are well known trauma symptoms (I'd add in gastrointestinal problems and headaches to make it a more complete list), all of which can turn into PTSD if ongoing, which has some similarity in children in these situations. 

The article goes into a discussion about emotional abuse, domestic violence and gaslighting. 

All of this is in the same link I referred you to when talking about adult-to-adult relationships. 

If someone invalidates a dangerous situation you experienced, can it create more danger for you? Yes. 

That link points to all kinds of issues that result from it:
* That it can put you in more danger than the initial danger.
* That there can be a "gaslighting effect" where others deny your reality or try to make you think that you are exaggerating or making things up. 
* There can be a compromise to your safety where others downplay your risk to the point where you believe them over what you are actually experiencing. This can mean that you also downplay your own risk. 
* Chronic invalidation is linked to higher rates of PTSD and also increases self harming behaviors. 
* It can prevent you from seeking medical or psychological help (fear that you'll be invalidated there too). 
* It adds a layer of social and emotional trauma to the original danger. 

And who invalidates others much more than other people do? Narcissistic and manipulative personalities, those people with Borderline Personality Disorder (another cluster B personality disorder along with Narcissistic Personality Disorder), people who relate to others in a co-dependent style, people who focus on logic and "proving a point" more than on what is actually happening, caregivers from invalidating environments (people who grew up hearing a lot of invalidation can invalidate others). 

This particular Google AI article makes the point that it is "a core trait", not just a tendency, of people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

But why do narcissists invalidate?
* They don't trust other people and feel they are being lied to most of the time or that people are plotting against them, or they feel that others are trying to undermine their power and control - that is because they are that way themselves and it is hard to conceive that others aren't just like them (and the link to the article does talk about projection). 
* They are only in relationships for power and control and all other issues are inconvenient.
* They have a lack of empathy (which is a brain issue) which means they simply don't care what other people are experiencing or feeling unless it concerns them and their ambitions for more power and control over others. However, they are likely to lose power and control as they invalidate and show no empathy, so I'm not sure why they would think invalidating would help get them power and control unless they feel that "gaslighting works". Part of it is a brain issue too, the lack of ability in judging how others feel (separate from how they feel, that is). It would seem whatever power and control they had at the time would be wiped out by their invalidations. 
* Narcissists really don't care about other people. They see relationships as transactional, ones that will benefit them more than the other person.  
* Relationships are disposable to them. Again this is a core trait, not just a preference.

HOW CHILDREN AND ADULT CHILDREN FEEL
IN A FAMILY ENVIRONMENT THAT INVALIDATES THEM

Children fight with invalidating parents to be heard, especially about issues which are frightening, dangerous, unfair, abusive, upsetting, provoking, or awful. They do it to get safety and boundaries against the dangers.

If they are getting invalidated instead of getting safety, they learn that they are not safe, and not safe from an adult shielding them from harm. The adult becomes untrustworthy, someone they can't talk to, someone who won't listen, or someone who is biased (confirmation bias would count as a bias too). 

Part of invalidating a child by a caretaker is an unspoken resolve that "I'm not listening to you. You're ---" and then the judgements come out that miss the mark (or a character assissanation). "You're exaggerating!", "You're paranoid!", "You're crazy! That never happened to you!", "You're a liar! I know a liar when I see one!", "I believe your (sibling). I don't believe you!", "You think you know everything! Well you don't! I know much more than you do and it simply never happened!" - when they apply it to situations, "You'll think of anything to gripe about to make the family miserable!", "I don't believe you!", "I really don't care what you have to say! I've never cared!", "Don't forget that I was alive at the time! I have eyes everywhere!", "You're responsible for this!", "You don't do things right, otherwise you wouldn't have been in danger!"

Part of the issue is that they don't investigate what real situations are, to see what you are going through, and they rarely, if ever, try to understand your perspectives and why you would feel what you feel. It's easier for them to decide what reality is and to tell you what it is, and if you don't adopt their perspectives, they may well call you "crazy", or "insane", or "lying", or that you are only trying to prove them wrong and make their life miserable, or they may feel that it is hopeless to talk you into false narratives, and therefor reject you over that. When I went to Google AI to get an answer to this issue, this is what I got:

Narcissists rarely investigate the "real" situation a partner or friend is going through because they are fundamentally uninterested in realities that do not center on their own needs, image, or convenience. To a narcissist, relationships are mirrors, not windows; they interpret your life experiences—sadness, success, or failure—only in terms of how it affects them. 

In the Google AI article it was broken down into several parts: 

The "False Self" and Projection: The narcissist looks to see how they appear and do not seek to understand your experiences. They insist that you have their traits. They ignore reality and build a fantasy to enhance and protect themselves from flaws or ego "fall-out". 

Lack of Empathy and Cognitive Dissonance: they lack affective emotional empathy and can only understand what you are going through cognitively. In other words, they can barely, if at all, see anything from your perspective and how it would effect you on a psychological or emotional level, which is why they use invalidation in the first place - they don't understand the emotional fallout of not having empathy for others.
     Their main agenda is transactional relationships. If they feel acting empathetic will get them what they want, they act it out, but otherwise are indifferent to what you are going through. - obviously this is incredibly problematic and can be dangerous for children. 
     Since they don't care about or value your perspectives, if you speak about your perspectives, you are likely to get shouted down or told you are "difficult" or "never satisfied". 

The "Victim Narrative" and Self Centeredness: They find your "difficult times" (illness, surgery, losing a job, getting bullied, your child needing care over an accident) as an inconvenience to them, and may tell you that it's "all your fault" or that you need to get over it. They are also too self centered to care. If they are part of your narrative of why you are going through a difficult time, they blame-shift, refusing to understand or take accountability. Note: blame shifting for narcissists is usually impulsive, rash. It is also incredibly cowardly.

In other words, they do it in most situations where they are being held accountable, not just with their children. They rarely can stop this behavior because they use it as "a primary survival mechanism because their sense of self is too fragile to handle accountability. To them, admitting a mistake is an existential threat to their 'perfect' image" - the link to the Google AI article this quote comes from. This makes it hard to solve any problems, or get safety or concern out of a narcissistic parent. 
 
Why They Don't Investigate: It offers no immediate or conceivable pay-off for them or for their ego. They see no advantage to them in investigating. Also: Investigating the truth might expose their own faults or weaknesses, which they are desperate to hide.

Scapegoats of narcissistic families endure a lot more invalidation than other members. That Google AI article has this to say about the phenomenon:
Scapegoats in narcissistic families endure intense invalidation, serving as the "emotional landfill" for family dysfunction to protect the narcissist's image. They are punished with chronic criticism, gaslighting, and blamed for problems they did not cause, leading to profound isolation. Despite this, they often develop greater independence, self-awareness, and resilience compared to other members.

There is a lot more to that article, but you can explore it yourself through the links. 

So while scapegoats are the main object for invalidations of their experiences, feelings and thoughts, other family members can go through this too. I was talking to a Lost Child recently who became the family scapegoat in her later teenage years after her oldest sister left the household. Before becoming "the new scapegoat" she rarely said anything, rarely revealed anything, rarely approached her narcissistic parent for anything, or over anything, and kept her mind away from the family and put it on her school studies instead. 

However, much to her surprise, her school studies were constantly being interrupted by accusations from the same parent her eldest sister endured. After that original scapegoat left she, the lost child, was the one getting attacked by the other family members instead. Since study and research were her main interests, and since she spent most of her time with her head in books and on the internet looking up subjects, she began to look up some of what she was experiencing: "being called a liar when I'm not", "Trying to make me believe something that's not true", "suddenly being attacked by my family", "What is a scapegoat of a family?", "What is gaslighting?", "Why is my family suddenly gaslighting me?" - and eventually she found out about narcissism and why narcissists scapegoat through those kinds of links. In the process, she discovered that narcissism and scapegoating was the problem in her family. Also, once a scapegoat leaves, the lost child often gets saddled with the role. However, she accused her parent, in this case her father, of being a narcissist (usually not the best idea as that will make most narcissists go ballistic and they can be dangerous). Anyway, the wheels came off of her life and her ability to be left alone (she was attacked constantly), so she moved in with her older original-scapegoat sister.

Narcissists need a scapegoat, and if you're no longer in their presence, or "convenient for scapegoating", they find someone else.

Also they tend to scapegoat and invalidate others who are:
* Truth tellers  
* Children who are independent minded - that link also points to kids who are intelligent, perceptive and seem to challenge the narcissist in some way through their intellect. Narcissists really only want totally obedient children who will believe any story the narcissist tells. A child's independent thoughts are a threat to a narcissistic parent. 
* Children who research and find the parent is off on their facts. 
* Children who are going through a difficult time, whether illness, disease, distress, losing someone, most anything ... again, a child in distress is inconvenient and a nuisance. In fact, the scapegoating and invalidation can increase and amplify. If a child is chronically distressed, they are often ignored or discarded by a narcissistic parent. - that link also says narcissistic parents often punish distressed children. The silent treatment is also brought up in that link. So is increased gaslighting. So are disparaging judgements: "selfish", "weak", "an embarassment", and dismissal of the child's pain with words like "useless", "get over it", "don't bother me", "over-reacting" and "crazy" - all invalidating gaslighting statements to turn the child's focus back on pleasing the parent, focusing their attention on their parent's needs while at the same time giving up on their own needs.
     Obviously this is not possible when a child is in chronic pain, but instead of finally dealing with the issue, as most people who are distracted and self centered might, the parent escalates with neglect, avoidance, rejections, more invalidation. 

And this, folks, is cited as the number one reason for why children from Generation Z become estranged from parents (that link includes not being heard and being dismissed - which is a manifestation of invalidation). When the invalidations, neglect of concerns and distress are ignored, when too many silent treatments are used to solve dire issues, and the gaslighting and smear campaigns and negative "off the wall" judgements continue, expect estrangement from your child (if not right away, eventually). 

And by the way, smear campaigns sound like more invalidation, denial, and blame-shifting. Obviously, it doesn't solve a thing with the child. What it apparently solves for the narcissist is getting really gullible people to believe a parent's false narratives and smear campaigns against their own child. It's not an admirable occupation to have in the world, and once the narcissistic parent is found out, it will create disgust in those same people. 

I think anyone in their right mind can see that being invalidated with all that goes with it (the distress, the negative judgements, the bullying, etc) is an impossible situation to live through, and is the antithesis of parenting.

In fact, many of these children fail, eventually, to look at these kinds of people as parents: there has never been safety, love, concern when distressed - it's only been about the parent trying to put the attention back on themselves whether that's in positive or negative ways. And that's just not the kind of parenting that most people want.  

However, non-narcissists can also use it. 

Years ago I watched a series (I'm pretty sure it was on Amazon Prime or maybe Apple TV - about 12 years ago?) about children who were estranged from their whole family. The genre was documentary in nature, and published as a series - interviews, showing the estranged adult child  in the new life they had adopted, the community they became part of, how dfficult the transition was and what it does to your happiness, psychological health and makeup, and how they felt years after leaving. One of them featured an Amish nuclear family who had decided to separate from their community, and another woman from The Twelve Tribes Commune, and another woman from a Jehovah's Witness background, and many others from the tighter knit communities in American society. 

My opinion is that the producers featured tighter knit communities because they are more enmeshed, harder to leave without enduring significant blow-back, and, for victims, it is harder to assimilate into the rest of American society. 

Almost all of them described situations where they were being invalidated by a parent, and many were abused because they wouldn't go along with the invalidation-oriented narrative, even when their parents browbeat them or punished them, sometimes severely, to accept it. They all experienced emotional shunning and ostracism from their family or whole community, and found it so intolerable to stay in their families and communities, that they felt that leaving was the only option, that life with their family would never work again. Many of them had safety issues with their families too (usually some sort of abuse). Either they didn't feel safe, or they didn't think their children were safe. 

It proves to me that if you are going to insist someone did something that you don't approve of, or said something, or is actually who you say they are, you should be absolutely sure you have an awful lot of facts that legitimize your view, that it's not just a theory or heresay, or from another person who may have an agenda, or some kind of vague suspicion or paranoia.

Shaming a person over something they didn't do, didn't think, or didn't feel won't work. Shaming a person over a judgement about them that has little bearing of the truth won't work either. 

Shaming people over what they didn't do and insisting they did do it is a narcissistic trait (another link) and if you aren't narcissistic in any of the other traits, if you are a parent who is invalidating your child because you grew up with it, maybe it's time to drop behaviors of "invalidation". One reason why is because the newer generations are so much more educated than past generations on what narcissism is, and what the traits of narcissism are, that if you speak in hunches, and vague suspicions, or believe in something someone else said, you may be viewed with suspicion yourself. 

Estrangements, in this day and age are very common. At the time of this writing, 30 percent of Generation Z are estranged from at least one parent. It's become a normalized part of society and of relationships, and definitely accepted and tolerated by younger generations, and becoming more tolerated by older generations, just as divorce became normalized in the 1970s (and my hunch is that estrangements directly or indirectly came out of the divorce movement).

As far as estrangement is concerned, the numbers continue to grow. If you are a parent, trying to figure the estrangement out, and you've given your child a one-time invalidation, it probably is something "big", something the child can't live with: some possibilities include an abusive family member, incest, a sibling bullying them, the other parent abusing them, not taking their adult-hood and decision-making seriously, destructive toxic home environments with lots of down-side issues that the adult child no longer feels safe in or wants to be part of. 

However, if there were constant invalidations while your child was growing up, there's your answer as to one of the most intolerable aspects of their experience of the family. Other reasons for what is causing estrangements, can be found in this post where I go much deeper into the subject - the common reasons, whether your child is a narcissist (includes signs), or whether they are depressed upon leaving (and those signs, usually isolating and being alone).

As for what childen feel when being chronically invalidated (incudes dealing with a narcissistic parent):
* "My parent doesn't love me."
* "My parent doesn't care about me."
* "Why is everything about them?"
* "Why do they have to control everyone and everything?"
* "I feel like a non-person in this relationship."
* "I feel like I don't matter at all to my parent. I'm just a robot who works or doesn't work the way they want. Is this normal or an anomoly?"
* "They are so terrible at listening. Why?"
* "I am treated much better by most other people compared to my parent. Why?"
* "Other people want to know who I am. My parent just makes assumptions, and the worst part about this is that they stick to the assumptions! So annoying! But why?"
* "Why am I experiencing so many punishments over things that other kids never get punished for?"
* "Why am I not believed when all my friends have parents who listen and want to get the full story?"
* "Why am I not valued? By my own parent? What are they getting out of devaluing me? Why not just give me away to another parent if that's the case?"
* "Why does my parent give me a hard time over leaving them or ignoring them? They never liked me in the first place!"
* "Why do they like provoking me over made up fantasies? What are they getting out of this?"
* "Why do they insist I listen to them when they don't listen to me? Am I just a robot that is just supposed to take orders from them, and believe stuff that isn't true?"
* "All I feel is frustration talking to my parent. It shouldn't be this hard to grasp their attention or for them to understand. It's like I have to shut up and only talk about what they want to hear. And what they want to hear is just another attempt to make a fantasy out of a reality."
* "Am I supposed to always be silent? If so, I'm nothing to them."
* "I feel like (my father or mother) is just blind. Why?"
* "Why wouldn't my parent want to know what's real? Why are they always trying to cover everything up to enhance their ego, with fantasies that they think will make their ego bigger? And how can a fantasy really make an enlarged ego anyway? I don't get this whole trip they are on."
* "Why does everything for them have to be solved using the silent treatment or shouting me down? Why can't they use the kinds conflict resolution practices that other parents use? Something seems terribly wrong with their method. It doesn't solve anything and is making me feel more invisible." - the silent treatment can be looked at as a sign of invalidation too. 
(Note: this may be of use: What a parent's chronic use of the silent treatment does to a child. A parent's chronic use of the silent treatment can cause C-PTSD in the child. Also note: C-PTSD syptoms can cause children to separate from a parent when they become an adult).
* "Why is the silent treatment being used by my parent to solve an issue where I'm being abused by ________ family member? Isn't this too major for that kind of treatment?" - Again, this can cause C-PTSD and usually does. 
* "Why can't they stop using the silent treatment? Sometimes they promise to stop it, but they usually don't. And I can't see what they are getting out of it. I hardly want to talk to them about anything any more, and I certainly am sick of caving in. Caving in does nothing except that I distrust them more and more."  
* Sometimes: "For some reason my parent wants and enjoys hurting me." - Some parents really can be sadistic when it comes to their children (it's a sign of Malignant Narcissism). 
* "Is my parent a narcissist?"
* experiencing either intense shame (if you believe them, are easily gaslighted, or want to believe in their judgments of others) or hyper independent (if you don't believe them). It's usually an either-or situation.
* experiencing hypervigilence to attacks and more invalidation
* nightmares about being invalidated over important issues they try to bring up with a parent, or conversely, dreams where they try to bring up a situation with the parent and they listen in the dream, but when awake and the child is inspired to re-enact what they did in the dream, their hopes are shattered once again
* pressure to be silent and not speak about anything except for what the parent wants to talk about
* feeling both invaded and ignored
* feeling both that their thoughts have to be internalized, but hounded by the narcissist for information
* "Why do I have to have a life where I have to protect myself from my own parent?" 

These are just some of the thoughts and internal struggles that survivors of parental invalidation have, the more common ones. 

HOW ADULTS FEEL IN RELATIONSHIPS
WHERE THEY ARE CHRONICALLY INVALIDATED BY ANOTHER ADULT

In close adult relationships when your experiences, feelings and thoughts are being invalidated, you are likely to feel silenced, alone, going through life without the other person's help or empathy - and if the narcissist tries to isolate you or forbids you to have relationships with other people, you can feel starved of compassion, love and care. 

Narcissists often try to make this your fault, that this is all you deserve, and if you leave, they will tell you that you will experience worse life experiences if you leave them - it's absolutely not true, but they will try hard to get you to believe it. Note: clicking on the Google AI versions will get you better articles and answers and less searching.

With adults in close personal relationships, being invalidated a lot often means divorce, especially in an age where divorce is common. 

Neither relationship can survive without the receiver of invalidation experiencing suppression. It is exceptionally unhealthy and traumatic over time.

The only other route is separation, a new beginning.

Part of invalidating someone else is an unspoken resolve that "I'm not listening to you. You're ---" and then the judgements come out that miss the mark (or character assissanations). "You're exaggerating!", "You're paranoid!", "You'll think of anything to gripe about!", "I don't believe you!", "I really don't care what you have to say! I've never cared!", "You're crazy!", "You're responsible for this!", "You don't do things right, otherwise you wouldn't have been in danger!" 

What you are going through becomes an invitation to attack, at least with invalidaters. Gaslighting is bound to be part of it. 

If this is your husband or wife, all of these invalidations can make you feel as invisible. 

If you are married to an invalidating spouse, your children are probably being invalidated too. So it becomes a dire family issue. If your spouse merely learned to invalidate, and does not seem to have the traits of narcissistic personality disorder, they can probably change out of it. However, it might take some nuance to suggest therapy for it. People who invalidate often feel they are "right", otherwise they wouldn't do it at all. Expect slow progress as it takes a lot of effort to grow out of habits. 

Following are ways that narcissists (and sometimes alcoholic spouses) behave when they want to invalidate:

WHEN THEY ARE HAVING AN AFFAIR OR AFFAIRS:

In this section, I refer to a man cheating, but all of this can be applied to women who cheat too. 

A high majority of narcissists cheat on their partner just so you know. 

How invalidation works when they are cheating: 

"Your suspicions are wrong. I'm a solid guy. I don't cheat. You need to think some other thoughts other than those. Suspcions aren't reality. It's your mind playing with you again. Maybe you're insecure." - for the more covert dark triad kinds of narcissists. 
     Note: the more overt narcissists will usually get angry if you suspect they are having an affair: "Why would you accuse me of that?! You have no right!" is a likely outcome. They may accuse you of having an affair instead.
     You might voice a suspicion that "Something doesn't feel right. There are women calling you on the phone. You take the phone outside a lot to talk to them. And you suddenly go quiet when I go outside." And the reaction you get is: "You're crazy!"

Then they get caught (you saw him kissing a woman on the mouth):
     "You didn't see what you think you saw! It was just a friendly kiss, the kind friends do! What's the matter with you!?" - the gaslighting starts, as well as the invalidation of what you saw. 
     The more you tell him what you saw, the angrier he gets: "You're crazy! I told you the truth, so what's really happening is your mind is going nuts on you! That's not my fault! That's your fault!" - the blame-shifting starts. 
     The covert kinds of narcisists will be a little more calm, telling you need therapy or a psychiatrist to help you recover from your suspicions and decipher reality. 
     Notice how the gaslighting deepens, the escalation of silencing you as he tries to take control of the narrative, and how the invalidating is escalating (discounting her sense that something is "off" in what he is telling her, trying to get her to distrust her own thoughts and feelings). By trying to control the false narrative, this is also a sign of narcissism (they are usually only in relationships for power, control, domination and narcissistic supply and they often try to make untruths into truths - the more they succeed at it, the more they use it). 

Then you catch him french kissing the woman:
     He says: "I told you that we're friends! Did you get some help for your problem?"
     You say: "I don't think I have the problem at this point! French kissing is not a 'friendship kiss'. Why are you trying to get away with all of this lying?" 
     He says: "Okay, so she comes on to me! I didn't initiate it!" 
     You say: "It seemed pretty mutual to me!"
     He says: "You were spying on me! How DARE you spy on me! How DARE you tell me that lying is unethical when you're spying on me! Look at yoursef before you accuse me!" - this is where the blame-shifting starts. 
     You say: "Stop trying to blame me for your infidelity!"
     He is out of control (for overt narcissists): "You know what's wrong with you!? Everything!" - he's trying to create a situation where you are so flawed that he's not going to listen to or care about your complaint. 
     Going silent on you (the silent treatment for covert narcissists): They refuse to speak to you, and go about doing what they want regardless of the commitments, regardless of your feelings, regardless of the lack of morality they show. They have to direct situations, and insist that you have to do as they say, and if you are refusing to let them by rebelling against their affairs, they are going to keep giving you the silent treatment. 
     Destroying something, stealing something of value, intensely spreading smear campaigns about you, or beating you up (for malignant narcissists): they try to drive fear into you that they will destroy you or your life if you object to what they are doing and will make you pay for resisting their plans for you. Or they will file for divorce and flaunt their lover, or move their lover into your common space and expect you to either compete with the lover or be afraid of them or leave your house and possessions to them. 

Many narcissists insist that you put up with them. If they say, "I'm the best person you ever met! Before me, you were nothing!", which a lot of them do, it does not mean you have to take that grandiose vision of themselves as your reality, and probably shouldn't. A lot of them use "the ungrateful phrase" too. 

All of it started with invalidating your experiences, your feelings, and your person. You become an obstruction to their agenda of having another partner or partners. If they can't push you around, they do see you as useless and very well may say so. 

Narcissists also are "boundary crashers". If you've caught the two of them in your bed, that's one sign. But they keep it up with other boundaries you have to see how much they can get away with, how much you'll tolerate from them.

After awhile you won't feel comfortable or relaxed in your bed or possibly your entire house. All of it is incredibly disrespectful of your peace, and needs for privacy and stability, and sometimes is crafted by them to be that way. Narcissists aren't particularly careful who they get involved with either (they do it to get narcissistic supply primarily, and sometimes types of narcissistic supply that will rock your world and make you more and more vulnerable to manipulation and attack). 

Usually if you stay, there may be some love bombing and hoovering to keep you giving them narcissistic supply, or in the game of putting up with the affair, but it will never last (it's fake love and fake overtures of regret at trying to get you back - narcissists don't love people; they are in relationships to manage and control people).

Being afraid of them, giving into them, being concerned with which lover they are with, being concerned with what false narratives they are spreading about you, being concerned about your boundaries and how they are being violated by them, feeling constantly upset or "put on edge" by their actions, feeling anxious around them, wondering what drama they will conjure up next, allowing yourself to be seduced by them even though you're objecting to their affairs - these are all narcissistic supply to them. Again, they get off on negative narcissistic supply as much as they get off on positive forms of it. They validate that they are important this way, that they are the center of your attention, that they have power, control and domination over what you do, what you think, what you feel and all of this gives them information about your vulnerabilities so they can attack those vulnerabilities when the time is right for them.

Their blackmail, obfuscation, on-going smear campaigns, lying, false narratives, on-going gaslighting, pushing the envelope in terms of what they "can get away with", on-going ignoring of your feelings, breaking every part of your peace of mind can become your everyday experience with them, along with dealing with their constant demands, excuses, grandiosity, extra-marital affairs, the invasiveness of their affair partners into your house, or bed, or childrens' lives, or place of employment, which they may try to normalize: "Everyone has affairs! What's wrong with you?!" - and you can feel that your life is in danger from the lack of boundaries (their allowing lovers into the house, lovers who may be violent or jealous, lovers who may want to destroy you and/or the children to "get the man", their constant intimidation tactics to get you to accept what they are doing at your expense, and so many other unforseen events). 

It's not your fault: narcissists are traumatic to be around, and can present dangerous situations or be a danger to you themselves. 

In terms of extra-marital affairs, one way to tell if you are dealing with a narcissist is that narcissists blame you for their cheating, whereas most other people will not. However, cheating is more likely to happen with people who have narcissistic traits. 

Being cheated on can resemble the trauma of being home invaded, and having things you value stolen from you - again, go to Google AI for the information on this, or go to articles which discuss betrayal trauma by a cheating spouse. 

Being cheated on can also make you feel devalued. Understand that love bomb, *devalue* and discard cycles are a core narcissistic trait, and this trait has nothing to do with you even if they may try to make it about you, or your fault. They will do it to others too, whether co-workers, employees, their siblings and other family members, their present scapegoats, anyone. That is a type of invalidation in that your being, your self esteem, your peace, your thoughts, your feelings, your health, are all invalidated by the rejection (devaluation and discard). 

There is an underlying cause to this behavior however:
What is the major childhood issue that would make narcissists want to cheat?
What that answer reveals:
* often profound emotional neglect
* sometimes abandonment of a caretaker 
* Possibly a childhood filled "with abuse, neglect, or unrealistic conditional love". 
* Narcissists may cheat to "avoid being abandoned. By keeping relationships superficial or having multiple partners, they avoid true vulnerability, which they perceive as dangerous due to early life trauma."
* A need for constant attention and validation. "Because their self-esteem is constructed from external validation rather than internal confidence, they require continuous praise. When a long-term partner stops providing intense, constant admiration, the narcissist seeks it elsewhere."
* They are re-enacting childhood neglect. 
* "A childhood of emotional neglect is often a direct route to an inability to feel empathy for others, making it easier for them to engage in betrayal without remorse." 
* "Entitlement: If their needs for attention are not met, they often feel entitled to seek it elsewhere, without regard for the emotional damage caused to their primary partner."

One thing that this article does not mention is that narcissists attack other people pre-emptively because they think others will attack them, and because they are paranoid or suspicious - this Google AI article goes into more depth about why they think pre-emptive attacks are "necessary for them". This would include cheating on you. Many narcissists assume that if they are cheating that you are cheating. Even if they know that you're not cheating, they assume you might, especially if you are bucking their control, or they do it to have more ups-man-ship. 

Narcissists are also novelty seekers, even when it comes to finding new partners and ways to cheat. 

WHEN THEY HAVE AN ADDICTION:

Narcissists who have an addiction can be more invalidating and abusive than they would be if they were sober - the link in this sentence goes to this Google AI article at this period of time (partial):

Narcissists who struggle with addiction often exhibit more extreme levels of invalidation and abuse, as the addiction exacerbates underlying narcissistic traits such as a lack of empathy, grandiosity, and intense emotional volatility. When a substance use disorder (SUD) co-occurs with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), the individual may become more volatile, reckless, and cruel, using substances to fuel their ego or to cope with deep-seated insecurities.

They become more volitile, exhibiting rapid mood swings, explosive with intense anger, they exhibit more intensive invalidating tactics, escalated forms of manipulation, more grandiosity than usual, and more resistance to treatment where the narcissistic ego cannot admit they have a weakness such as an addiction, and less empathy. - all of this is in the same link. 

But what about malignant narcissists?

It's so much worse. Here is what the present Google AI article says about that (partial):

When malignant narcissism is combined with addiction, the risk of harm to others increases significantly. This "dual diagnosis" creates a volatile environment where the narcissist's existing traits—such as lack of empathy, grandiosity, and a need for control—are amplified by the disinhibiting effects of substance abuse.

Here is a shortened version of the rest of it: gaslighting with devaluation; they try to shift responsibility for the addiction on to others; there is heightened selfishness and belittling the needs of others; there are heightened paranoias, fantasies, lying, and they try to make small disagreements into deep betrayals and conspiracies. 

But the more concerning issue is that "there is a significant risk factor for violence": 

"Substances like alcohol or stimulants can remove the small amount of self-control a malignant narcissist might have, leading to impulsive physical, verbal, or sexual aggression.

The article also outlines heightened sadistic trends as well as heightened resistance to treatment. 

I had to deal with someone with both issues myself, and it was truly a nightmare. You may want to get police and domestic violence counselors involved in safety plans, as well as install a security system if you live apart from them. And not kidding. You can easily under-assess the dangers because of the type of relationship it is, or live on wishes that they will change, or have PTSD where your experiences are broken apart into autonomous episodes, and at the very least believe they won't go any further than they did with the violence, but abuse almost always escalates to worse forms of violence. It very rarely de-escalates, no matter the relationship, and no matter which "good side" they show in public (narcissists try hard to hide their abusive sides by being overly sweet and accommodating in public). 

Malignant narcissists who have substance use disorder often micro-manage you and call you lazy. Watch for this as it is a tell-tale trait of the malignant type. 

As far as how you'll feel being around a substance abuser with either type of narcissism, you'll probably feel like you're in some kind of danger and you would be right to perceive it that way. You'll probably feel a heightened sense of anxiety. You'll probably have restless sleep and nightmares, stomach aches and headaches which are the beginning of trauma symptoms which can turn into PTSD, even within months of their mistreatment.

I decided to go mostly "no contact" with this kind of person myself. You may want to do the same. 

The problem with getting PTSD is that it clouds your thinking and it plays a part of why women go back to their abusers. You can have memory lapses about what happened to you until you can fully get away from them. Then the memories start invading your thinking as you begin to relax, and then become incredibly intrusive, making you relive it over and over again, but in some ways in worse ways because full memory recall is very, very unnerving, painful and can cause so much tension that it will effect all of your muscles. The muscle cramping can be so painful in that it can give you more hypervigilant symptoms than you had during the actual episodes. It's yet another nightmare you'll have to deal with that can make you feel broken and sometimes unable to break the spell of symptoms. 

This is actually a "natural process": it is how the brain works to protect itself. An onslaught of violent and abusive situations (including verbal abuse, emotional abuse and psychological abuses like gaslighting) will mean the brain can't handle it, and the situations break apart into fragments, where as they are happening, some fragments stay, but other fragments break away and on recall seem either dream-like, or dim, or not quite there. Eventually the full recall happens during times when the body relaxes and the mind starts to make the memories very vivid, even maginified, and eventually the "whole" is presented (I'll get into this more for the trauma section of this blog). 

This is part of the reason why people with PTSD want to be alone - the brain is trying to process what happened, and frankly the symptoms exist to keep you away from the person. 

My PTSD over this particular event lasted a full two and a half years without let-up and even got worse a year in (over a four month experience, mind you). It's so not worth dealing with malignant narcissists in my book, especially with drinking problems. I also don't feel anything is worth it, no promise, no promises to change, no money, no great honeymoons or anniversaries or vacations, hanging on to relationships where this person is brainwashing other people (turning them into "flying monkey"- type of enablers), not even putting up with their tactics just so that you can still be part of a marriage, or a family, or a friendship circle, nothing. And malignant narcissists do not change a bit, no matter what they say (another link from a prominent psychologist). They won't get more empathetic and often get worse. They won't get training on how to treat a person with PTSD to help the PTSD'ed person get better, and if they do, they use the information they get to make people with PTSD feel worse - because they are sadists at heart. 

Malignant narcissists sometimes try to kill you if they think their reputation is at stake.  - again, go directly to the Google AI article and the derivative articles on the right as the search is filled with articles that do not address this particular phenomenon.

The enablers and sycophants make things worse. They can actually be the main instigators of perspecticide and invalidation because they very badly want to believe in what ever the malignant narcissist says and does, and take their side for their own benefit. Apparently many people have to believe in everything a malignant narcissist says whole-heartedly not to be on the chopping block themselves (and for what malignant narcissists do to others, you can see it in plain sight with the despotic tyrants who rule nations ... they do a lot of damage or kill sycophants who disagree with them on one issue). 

I think this is really how PTSD symptoms go to levels that cause such strong symptoms of feeling ill, the flying monkey-like people who say, "That never happened", "I can't believe you", "Such a nice charming man! He would never hurt a flea!", "You're not listening right", "You're exaggerating", "You can't be serious", "You must have an agenda," , "You must be afraid of your own shadow", "The way it happened was ______" and they parrot the malignant narcissist's false narratives. 

In my case, they not only did this, but were shaming me over thoughts I didn't have, and experiences that were either totally made up by them or made up by the malignant narcissist. 

The relationship not only died over on-going attempts of pressuring me to adopt the malignant narcissists perspectives, but by:

* The "flying monkey" gave me the silent treatment - this person had done it before over an earlier incident, and when wanting to re-establish a relationship with me again, said they would never use it again. The fact that she used it again was a betrayal of a promise (meaning I could never trust her again), and the silent treatment seemed, in and of itself, a totally inappropriate response to this kind of an issue. - this is enough to kill any relationship, but there was more ... 

* She and her husband were trying to shame me and blame me for thoughts and experiences I actually did not have. If they had been true, which they were not, they were such tiny issues that in most people's worlds they would not register as anything "awful". But this was the reason this person instigated a silent treatment, and broke a promise about it. I started wondering if she was a narcissist herself because when looking back on her history, she did a lot of over-the-top unethical things in her life. Usually when someone unethical is trying to make a case that you are unethical through invalidations of your thoughts and experiences, it shows narcissistic traits in them - that article actually points to a trait of dark triad individuals - *shudders* (it is probably good we no longer talk to each other any more, considering this)  ... Regardless, the use of the silent treatment is another clue of narcissism and further made the untrustworthiness of this person even more pronounced in my eyes. 

* there were some sadistic remarks by her - a very bad sign, and even more of a sign of untrustworthiness and perhaps malignant narcissism - and a definitive killer of any relatonship. Who wants to have dinner with a sadist?

PTSD itself feels really, really bad. In the more severe cases it is considered by the government to be a  disability (in terms of eligibility for SSI disability income). I'd say it is close to the severity of the flu, especially if you have whole body muscle aches, and headaches, and stomach upset, except unlike the flu, the muscle aches are on-going. PTSD can interfere with your everyday life in the same way the flu can. 

Having a disability is something that sadistic-oriented narcissists are likely to enjoy, rather than help you recover from. 

This means that you will have to find peace, safety and healing on your own (or with the help of domestic violence counselors, a therapist specializing in trauma therapy, and often with police).

The more controlling a narcissist is, the more malignancy is present in the person.

In terms of invalidations, I'd bet anything that most of the things that come out of the substance addicted malignant narcissist's mouth will have some form of invalidation. Like: "You're lazy" when you've done a lot more during the day than they have. "You're useless" when you're quite a bit more empathetic than they are. "You can't do anything right" when you have successfully navigated your own life for years without them. 

How invalidation feels for victims of substance addicted narcissists:

* "Why do they blame me for their drinking!?" - although most people with alcohol use disorder will tell others that someone else  isto blame for their drinking. Blameshifting is as much of a problem for alcoholics as for narcissists. 
* "When I try my best and feel I'm giving them what they want, they get worse?" - Narcissists with prominent addictions never feel satisfied with how much people do for them.
* "Why are they spreading so many false narratives about me?" - Narcissists with prominent addictions often spread false narratives about other people (see the Google AI article - other articles appear on the right side).
* "I've been diagnosed with PTSD. Why don't they care about me, when I've done so much for them and walked on eggshells so as not to upset them?" - substance addicted narcissists will not care if you have PTSD or are suffering from the symptoms of it.  * "Why is everything in their life about them? They never think about how others are feeling, ever?" - substance addicted narcissists rarely think about other people.
* "I can't be in this relationship any more. Is there something wrong with me that I can't go through any more of this?" - Being in a relationship with an addict is intolerable for most people.
* "I can't be in a this relationship any more. Their narcissism is getting worse and I've reached my level of tolerance. Is that wrong? After all, they are a big part of my family (or friendship group)." - Being in a relationship with a narcissist is traumatic and intolerable for most people - see the Google AI article on this with other articles on the right side. 
* "Why can't I cope? I feel frozen, but also deeply sad." - PTSD from narcissistic abuse can make you feel frozen and sad - very common as the link suggests. 
* "I've given up. I can't take any more. What happened to my capacity to deeply and endlessly care how others feel?" - This is actually normal. There is such a thing as "Empathy burnout" and "Compassion fatigue" especially when dealing with narcissists (very common) and addicts (also very common). 
* "I'm tired of fighting to be heard. I feel like I don't exist in this relationship." - It is common to feel you are a non-entity, that you don't exist to a narcissist or an addict unless you enable - both of these are found in Google AI and the articles provided on the right side of the Google AI section. 
* "I can't seem to handle this situation. I used to be so resilient and thought I could handle anything. But I'm feeling like I don't have the capacity to handle much of anything with this situation." - It's extremely common to feel you are losing your resilience when you are in a relationship with a narcissist. Again, look into the Google AI part of the link and the articles on the side. The issues it brings up: feeling completely exhausted, identity loss, physical burnout, "walking on eggshells", symptoms of trauma, what the stress does to your nervous system. It is also common to feel like your resilience is slipping when dealing with an addict too. When the narcissist is an addict, your ability to keep strong and resilient is definitely going to feel compromised. You may also feel sick or weak. Long term exposure can give you an autoimmune disease or increase symptoms if you already have one. And note: narcissists do not have the capacity to care about any of this. They don't even have the capacity to understand even, and will most likely invalidate or minimize what you are going through mentally, emotionally and physically. If you feel you must withdraw from them, they can increasingly become more dangerous (and that's how invalidation can feel dangerous, what this post is about). They make big bones about how they don't like you, or approve of you, or how you're flawed, but they also want to trap you and not let you leave. Cognitively, it is hard to figure out why, but it has to do with narcissistic supply and not wanting to fill the role they assigned you with another person.

They also blame you and shame you in order to get their way and control you (not to make you leave), and so do addicts, but if these tactics no longer work for them, they tend to resort to destructive solutions, including all kinds of abuse, and some even turn to crime against you, which can also translate into more danger, and more invalidation of your worth. 

I've never found it useful to discuss what I'm going through personally with anyone with narcissistic characteristics myself, although I've tried. Generally what I see with just about everyone who is in a relationship with a narcissist is that you usually have to take steps for your own self care, and give up on them caring about you, or even treating you with dignity and respect. It doesn't matter what you are going through; they do not have the empathy to care or even the capacity to have an inkling for why they traumatize others, and for malignant narcissists they enjoy traumatizing others.

Most people find that it is best to greatly minimize contact with narcissists with addictions in order to recover. Most doctors and therapists know the facts that I've brought up in this section of the post, and should be able to help you get your life back together again. Note: recovery is slow, and narcissists will often try to sabotage it, but it can be done if you give it a lot of time, and do all of the exercises they prescribe. 

WHEN THE NARCISSIST IS PARANOID OR HAVING A NARCISSISTIC COLLAPSE:

Note: Narcissists become more invalidating when they are paranoid or having a narcissistic collapse. Narcissists can also become much more dangerous during a narcissistic collapse - significantly so. For instance, many school shooters are young men who are experiencing a narcissistic collapse.

In terms of narcissists with Paranoid Personality Disorder (35.9% of narcissists have this comorbidity), they can become significantly more dangerous when their paranoia is acting up (for this link, look to Google AI and accpompanying articles). 

You can see that with Paranoid Personality Disorder mixed with significant narcissistic traits, they are going to be living on conspiracy theories about others. People with Paranoid Personality Disorder tend to endorse other people's conspiracy theories, and people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder tend to make up conspiracy theories and insist that others believe them. 

This combination is very difficult for any partner or any child to live with. Their assessment of others tend to be total fantasy, and if they are confronted or proven wrong, they can and do get dangerous. If you don't know them very well, or they are spreading false rumors against you, the danger can take you by total surprise. 

Also, narcissists can slowly develop paranoid traits over time, meaning they might not be that dangerous at 20 years old, but become dangerous when they are 40, say. The fact that their paranoia and clandestine smear campaigns with conspiracies grow and evolve, means again, that you won't necessarily be prepared to face the danger they present to you or your common children, and their destructions can come as a total surprise and be devastating. 

How people with Paranoid Personality Disorder invalidate others (from a Google AI article - partial):

People with paranoid personality disorder (PPD) invalidate others by constantly questioning their motives, accusing them of disloyalty, and misinterpreting innocent actions as hostile. They create a tense, defensive environment by dismissing others' intentions, holding grudges, and reacting with anger or counterattacks to perceived slights.

When the two traits of narcissism and paranoia come together, it can, and often creates Malignant Narcissicism.  

When narcissists assume malicious intent and misinterpret neutral actions, watch out! - especially when they also exhibit paranoid traits.

Since the combination is hard to decipher, and it can be clandestine for many years, and can be quite a bit more injurious and deadly, it is also why so many therapists and psychologists suggest "no contact" with their clients even when they are only hearing narcissistic traits coming up in discussion. Since Paranoid Personality Disorder is so common in narcissists, in terms of a safety plan, it makes the most sense to them, anyway, for you to begin to separate.

Feelings you may have:

* You may feel unsafe, or you may not.
* You may have nightmares about them, or you may not.
* You may have symptoms of trauma or hypervigilence, or you may not.
* Your major feeling around them is fear, walking on eggshells and high amounts of anxiety and significantly more frustration when talking to them than you do with other people. You may also feel that trying to please them makes no sense and is a constant drain without a good resolution. 

What is more important is to pay attention to signs you are seeing in them (especially collapsed narcissists and narcissists with paranoid personality disorder):

How much control are they trying to exert over you? How much do they withdraw affection from you to get their own way? Is their life and attention focused more on themselves, and not on the both of you? Are they gaslighting you at all? Are they insulting you at all? How much diminishing and invalidating are they doing of your feelings, experiences and thoughts? Do they like to argue and insist that you adopt their perspectives? Do they rage a lot, especially if you complain about anything? Do they make up things they cannot verify about other people? Are they haughty and arrogant? - these would be the better questions to ask yourself about the level and kind of narcissism they have. 

Detecting collapsed narcissism: Are they being held accountable for something they obviously did, and they are reacting with on-going rage or have a pronounced victim mentality about it? Are they blaming you for not caring and for not getting them out of the mess they are in? Have they fallen from grace publicly? Do they count on others to make excuses for them? Have they failed their courses in college and blame it on their professors? Have they been fired from a job and blame it totally on their boss and cannot seem to get over it?  

Detecting Paranoid Personality Disorder: Go HERE. When combined with narcissism, they believe in a lot of conspiracy theories, or if their primary actions and main beliefs are conspiracy-oriented, that is a sign. Hunches, fixed opinions, and suspicions without clear evidence is another sign. Making up a lot of stuff that is damning about other people, is another big red flag. 

Some well-known people who are considered to have these dual personality disorders are (again, from Google AI):

Adolf Hitler

Joseph Stalin

Saddam Hussein

Mao Zedong

Pol Pot

I would add in King Henry the VIII too. 

Who are the well known figures who have had a narcissistic collapse? Google AI only listed a few people: John List, Elizabeth Holmes and Bernie Madoff. However the article does a great job of describing what collapsed narcissism looks like and acts like. If for nothing else, check out the link for that kind of information.

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Why Do Narcissists Take the Vindictive Path When People Aren't Doing What They Want? Do Narcissists Get Satisfaction For Revenge, Vindictiveness, and Retaliations?

So are narcissists vengeful, and do they get satisfaction from being that way? 

The most simplistic answer is Yes, narcissists can get satisfaction from revenge from a Google AI article I found (and taken from a number of psychology articles).

The gist of the discussion in that article (or answer) is that narcissists can't handle differences they have with other people, and look at those differences as an attack. They are unable to feel good if there are disagreements or differences of opinion with another person, especially if they are unable to sway or control the opinions, thoughts or experiences of others. Narcissists can't accept others as separate human beings who are not out to serve them and what they want at all times, or out to get their self esteem stroked by the narcissist. Most people are independent thinkers, in other words, and accept that there will be different opinions and thought processes from one person to the next.
     Most people, except the most brainwashed among us, are not out to accept the narcissist's way of thinking and opinions on all matters as our own.
     Malignant narcissists feel they are losing control of others (and power, control and domination is what is most important to them in all relationships), and that it is an afront to their arrogance and delusions of superiority. 
     In order to reject the opinions, thought processes, and experiences of others, they reason they have to reject the person. Malignant narcissists go further than that and feel they have to punish the person, and this is where vindictive narcissism comes in. 
     Narcissists cannot handle this common and normal way of relating (i.e. disagreeing, having different opinions, having ambitions separate from pleasing them, having different thought processes, having different experiences than a narcissist thinks they are having, and they see all of it as a personal attack on them and their delusional superiority and respond in a vindictive, vengeful manner).

This is a problem for the rest of us, obviously. 

Better articles on vindictive narcissism are these two articles:

Vindictive Narcissists: 10 Signs & How to Handle One - by Hailey Shafir, LCMHCS, LPCS, LCAS, CCS and medically reviewed by Rajy Abulhosn, MD for Choosing Therapy

What is Vindictive Narcissism? - by Simone Marie and Sandra Silva, and medically reviewed by Karin Gepp, PsyD

The articles say the same things, except in a more lengthy way, and also tell you how to deal with vindictive narcissism (protect yourself, find a way to back out of the relationship, put up strong boundaries). 

Since narcissists have trouble regulating their emotions, and vindictiveness is the first thing they feel, and what they want to act on, they go into it headlong, and at first it is impulsively driven. This is why they are more likely to be dangerous just before you leave the relationship with them, or just after, or when you are resisting their punishments or power and control agendas. Revenge can quickly take over their mental and emotional state and even their entire life in some cases, where they become absolutely obsessed until and unless their plans of certain punishments become a reality. 

Even if the other person caves or apologizes for upsetting the narcissist, the narcissist's lack of empathy and suspicious nature will mean that they will not necessarily accept the different qualities others have from them, and can find it impossible to forgive the other person, whereby the vindictiveness permanently remains and never quite satisfies the narcissist. In these cases, revenge becomes on-going. 

Some things I have come across via the internet are survivors of child abuse who left their family of origin to get married. They were part of a cult-like narcissistic family system where they were either deemed "for" the family in the way of being always present and always submissive to what their parents wanted in terms of providing for the family and being present in all family affairs, or "totally against" the family if they sought their own way of life in another part of the country, or overseas, or via getting married to start their own family. 

Sometimes things happen, like their spouse dies, or there is a divorce. The family invites the member back with open, seemingly loving arms, and then the family destroys all property, including pictures and memorabilia of their time away from the family without the permission of that returned family member. It is done to wipe out their past. In some cases that caused that member to leave again (the more common outcome), or conversely to feel trapped with nowhere to go. Some of the trapped members had suicidal thoughts. 

Many of these families believe that hurting a member in this way will teach that member never to leave again and to go along with constant commands and demands of the authoritarians in the family, but it simply does not work and here is why. This has some bearing on whether narcissists, over the long term, get satisfaction out of revenge, or if it is just another "it's never enough" thought process (a common stuck obsession about all kinds of issues around domination and control agendas that narcissists are famous for, and feeling they don't get enough of). 

Another situation comes from a domestic violence group I belong to where seeing young women with bloody lips, black and blue eyes, and their faces smashed up while they are sitting in a hospital bed is a somewhat common occurrence. In a lot of these cases, these women never saw this kind of violence coming, even though they knew they were being watched constantly, controlled to the point of the ridiculous, and emotionally abused. They were trying to figure out how to deal with the rages and emotional abuse of their men in our group, ways to calm the situations they were in, and did not think, in their wildest dreams, that they would be hit. Some of them had warning signs like their possessions being destroyed, or the man was putting his fist through a wall, or stalking, but almost all of them did not think that would ever translate into violence against them.

The thing is, abuse escalates, and with enough emotional abuse, it can tip over into physical abuse (I find this the case particularly if a woman has PTSD and is disassociating: going blank, freezing, an involuntary response). It's unfortunate that it escalates so fast after the man finds that emotional abuse isn't hurtful, threatening or scary enough.

Even subtle signs like being pushed or led in a demanding, controlling manner often precludes getting hit. 

Anyway, many of these stories entail a man beating his woman as a way to get her to submit to what he wants. In some of these instances what he wants is a total fantasy, such as his woman confessing to an affair she has not had, or to an attraction to a man she barely noticed, or does not know. She is being beaten for being disloyal when she hasn't been disloyal. What a lot of these men don't understand is that it is virtually impossible to be disloyal when these women are isolated in such extreme ways, and when their victim is spending most of her time trying to calm his rages and reassure him, and when he attempts to make his micro-managements of her the center of her attention all of the time. 

Hitting her is supposed to keep her from being disloyal, but most often it creates a situation where she wants to get away, and yes, be disloyal even if just to speak out about what has been done to her, or to live without him in her life. Hospital workers will also be helping her have that agenda and teaching her about how abuse escalates - and this includes "no matter how she acts, and no matter which of her soothing techniques she decides is most effective." None of them are effective when it comes to physical abuse.  

One reason narcissistic jealous and suspicious boyfriends, lovers, and husbands suspect their women of cheating is often because of projection. Most narcissists cheat (around 75 percent of them). And if they aren't cheating, they usually have some other clandestine activity they are pursuing whether it is getting drugs for a drug addiction, or a gambling addiction, or a porn addiction, or a peep show addiction, or other kind of activity where secrets are kept. 

The suspicions can also be a result of growing up in an environment of people who were hostile and exploitative. They might have been spared that treatment themselves, but they saw it being done to others. Lack of loyalty is triggering to them as many of them take it to mean hostility and exploitation, producing rage as the outlet, and for narcissists with malignant characteristics, violence. They tell themselves they will not be abandoned, or exploited, or treated as though their voice doesn't have any bearing, even when they've adopted all of those qualities themselves. They get around to believing that threats and being menacing is the only way to prevent it happening to them. 

They conduct themselves in relationships as though everything is a threat to them and their fragile egos. 

But who wants to be around someone who is hurting you all of the time anyway, even if they are using it as an insurance policy against being fooled, cheated on, and exploited, and who is a danger to your life? And domestic violence is always dangerous to your life - violence has a way of getting out of control, particularly if the other person is trying to protect themselves from blows - more likely than not as the body does what it does to protect itself; it is why when you fall your arms go out first, automatically, to cushion the fall and to keep your face and head protected.

The same goes to protecting your face and head from being hit: your arms and hands will automatically act as a shield to protect you from the blows. 

Invariably most of these men were always begging their woman to come back after she was released from the hospital. If she refused, the stalking alternated between "sick love puppy who cannot live without her" to threatening, destructive and sometimes violent, or criminal, reactions, in other words, the perpetrators had a very pronounced Jekyll/Hyde manifestation (called "splitting" - and in extreme ways).  

For those women who go back, they find that their loyalty is deemed to never be enough by their man. These women find themselves constantly insulted (where they are told they never do enough for the man, they aren't pretty enough, they aren't smart enough, they aren't sane enough, they are nasty and not nice, that they are worthless and useless, and so on). As I said, "never-enough-ness" is a dominant narcissistic trait, as are fantasies about what another person is feeling, thinking and experiencing. And to make matters even more scary, they tend to think they can read other people's minds (where arrogance and feeling they are superior to everyone else comes into play, another delusion you have to deal with as they can be insistent that you are feeling and thinking things you are not feeling and thinking). 

There is also always a tone of disrespect too, as though you are too unable to make autonomous decisions, or too disabled to do anything or say anything other than to follow their orders. You are required to either parentify them, or infantilize them (and you never know which one they want at any given time, which can bring on more violence: "Who do you take me to be? A child that constantly needs to be reassured!?" and "Who do you take me to be? Your parent who has to tell you what to do all of the time?!" - it's positively crazy-making, but so common). 

It is where co-dependency and trauma bonding start and never end as long as you stay in a relationship with a narcissist. 

And by the way, if domestic violence is going on where one partner is initiating hitting his (or her) other partner, it's usually a sign of malignant narcissism. In child abuse cases where there is physical abuse and harm, as well as punishments that are essentially about neglect and rejection of a child, these cases are perpetrated by malignant narcissists too. Malignant narcissists generally never get better, and often get so much worse, and because of the antisocial personality disorder mixed in with the narcissism, they are dangerous enough to seek protection and boundaries from, or get away from altogether (where going to a domestic abuse center can help you plan an un-violent escape).

You also cannot talk a malignant narcissist out of their delusionary judgements about what you really feel and think, and who you are. They are too suspicious and adamant that they know how to read your mind, and the reading is always going to entail how you are their enemy, even if it is just one time you did not agree with them, or do what they wanted. They simply can't trust you again, and they will want to retaliate against you at some time or other, whether a lot or a little. How they retaliate is often dependent on how enraged they are. Which is why you have to be careful of the hoover (the hoover is about sweet-talking you back into the relationship with them). 

Another way to tell if you are dealing with a malignant narcissist where you are trying to put up boundaries, or separate from them, they won't just be running smear campaigns, which all narcissists do. They will also be indulging in some kind of crime too, or at the very least breaking or giving away property that is yours, or things you have given them.

If they have any covert narcissistic qualities, they will be trying to convince everyone they know that they are the victim. They can even say they were a victim of infidelity even when they dreamt it up - very common and very nauseating. 

I think it should be obvious why you can't really have any kind of meaningful relationship or discourse with a malignant narcissist. It will always be threatening, and always be about the narcissist hurting you, trying to get more submission out of you, and getting off on your pain. It is also very likely that they are fooling other people into believing their fake victim stories and getting duper's delight from them.  

As the article from the link suggests, duper's delight actually has an addictive quality to it, and the person delighting in duping others most often ends up lying just about anything and everything. It tends to create a full time liar or exaggerator of the truth, and who can be really pleased, at peace with themselves, and truly happy being a full time liar? The feelings of alienation, being alone, and trying not to get caught, would be negatives most people aren't willing to gamble on in their own relationships. It's permanently isolating and extremely shameful.

In contrast, it's nothing like the fulfillment empaths have living in the truth and sharing their inner-most thoughts and feelings with one another, and real trust, not the fake kind of trust narcissists try to promote about themselves. 

Given the choice between lying to others all of the time and getting duper's delight from fooling others, versus experiencing a really trusting relationship with a lot of sharing, full time trust, and a lot of co-operation, which would you prefer?

And it is a preference. Malignant narcissists prefer duper's delight because most of them trust no one. It's why the covert malignant narcissists who are most likely to go after duper's delight in their relationships, never share much of anything in their relationships. It says so much about them and how untrustworthy they are themselves, and it certainly says a lot about their total lack of ethics. 

I think most of us can see that they miss out on a lot of meaning, life, truth, fulfillment and even those feelings of "having enough" by going down that road. 

And once the "mask falls" and they get caught with so many lies, and getting off on the pain of others, it's more than a little disgusting. All of the shame they've been running away from in their relationships starts up again, and they are even faced with self-shame. Most people who uncover an ugly truth like duper's delight will want no part in any kind of real relationship with the narcissist again. 

So, none of this ends up in a good place, whether you are the narcissist, or the victim, although victims are better equipped at finding good relationships than narcissists will ever experience. 

SO DO NARCISSISTS GET SATISFACTION FOR REVENGE,
VINDICTIVENESS, AND RETALIATIONS? 

It's pretty clear they do, otherwise they wouldn't keep doing it. But like duper's delight, it's never going to be fulfilling over the long term because who wants to be around a narcissist who wants to hurt you just because you didn't follow an order, or agree with them, or because you have a different opinion that can't be swayed by them? Who wants an ongoing relationship with a narcissist who only wants submission from other people? Who wants an ongoing relationship with a narcissist who wants constant revenge on you or someone else, and who gets a kind of junky attention from it, and who rationalizes the necessity of revenges to make themselves feel almighty and powerful? 

Like duper's delight, most people will be disgusted by it, will find it to be evil. 

It gets more people running away from them than towards them, certainly. No one really likes being in relationships where the other person doesn't have any empathy, or ethics, gets off on lying, gets off on plans of retaliations and crimes that show their selfishness in bright details, entitlements, hoovers, tricking others, and boorishly tries to take advantage of others.  

It puts most of us on edge because it's a threat to our well-being.  

It's been said many times that relationships with narcissists traumatize most of us. If two narcissists are in a relationship together, the narcissist that is closer to the malignant brand of narcissism or psychopathy can traumatize the narcissist with less psychopathy. So one way or another, there is trauma to go around. 

I was watching Richard Grannon's channel once, and he said he had clients that were lamenting: "The narcissist always comes out on top!" And Richard said he never knew of a single narcissist who came out on top. They eventually all become disappointed wrecks of human beings. 

We only need to turn to well known malignant narcissists to see how they fared. Hitler ended up poisoning himself as troops surrounded his bunker. Mussolini was executed. Napoleon was banished. King Henry the Eighth died at the age of 55 and any number of his ailments could have caused his demise from an infected leg wound that never healed and possibly was septic (it was infected for eleven years), to gout and possibly a pulmonary embolism. His body was severely obese to the point where he could no longer walk, and he left a country in financial crisis.

And how is Putin doing with his invasion plans?

None of these men felt or feel their dreams had been fulfilled by the end of their life, or had a sense of a life well lived. 

A lot of it is caused by the "never-enough-ness" grumblings that plague most narcissists. They didn't get enough power and control over people; people weren't submissive enough for them; people weren't loyal enough for them; people weren't nice enough to them (and some of them were even "nasty", something that perpetrators repeatedly call women who disappoint them); they didn't hurt so-and-so enough; they weren't catapulted into positions of power enough, people weren't bright enough to not realize they were geniuses; people weren't trusting of them enough to let them take over; people never praised them enough; people weren't grateful enough for all the things they did do and were too focused on what they didn't do; people couldn't see they were superior to everyone else because they were not self effacing enough; no relationship was good enough for them; their children didn't become anything special enough for them; their spouse didn't make enough money or wasn't generous enough to them; their children and spouses weren't smart or successful enough for them; their lovers never appreciated them enough; their children were never "good enough" children; no one could ever read their mind in a  good enough way and certainly not as good as they could read others' minds (this is, of course, a delusion);  no one ever saw enough of the brilliant talent they had; and home health care workers never did enough for them when they become old. 

All of this leads them to be hyper critical of others, demanding, commanding and never satisfied. They especially try to instill the thought into their children that these children are not enough as people. What this really translates into is that children are not pleasing and submissive enough for a narcissist; they aren't endowed with enough narcissistic supply for a narcissist; they aren't making their parenting look good enough for their narcissistic parent; their children aren't easy enough not to go ballistic on, i.e. go into rages and punishments all of the time; their children aren't praising them enough; their children aren't doing what they are told enough; their children seem more ugly than other children, that they aren't beautiful enough to admire. Children who are too heavily dominated by the narcissistic parent (without their other parent pushing back on their ambition to destroy a child's self esteem) can carry the burden that they are not enough their whole entire lives.

They can especially get the sense that they don't work hard enough, where one of the traits of being a scapegoat is that they become work-a-holics.  

Dr. Ramani Durvasula and Jerry Wise often talk at length in their writings and videos about how narcissists crush their children's self esteem, and that only being a puppet with no boundaries is the only way they will ever receive affection, or be seen, or respected by their narcissistic parent ... until the next round of devaluation and narcissistic exaggerated disappointments which turn into shaming the child (and for malignant narcissists violence or punishments meant to hurt). The child takes in that they are "not enough" and the destruction to his self esteem, his budding personality, his ambitions and accomplishments therefor aren't enough (and if his parent is violent towards their child, physical destruction of the child too).  

If an adult child shows that they are internally endowed with self esteem which can come from being away from the narcissist for a length of time, or pursuing an interest or education away from the family system, the narcissist can double down on terrorizing. No narcissist can deal with, or stand, any child of theirs with self esteem, including enough intelligence to know why their parent is trying to wreck their self esteem.

All of it creates endless amounts of emotional dysregulation and rage in the parent, and for malignant narcissists, revenge and retaliation too. 

And the reason why narcissists are rarely satisfied with their own children is because relationship satisfaction does not come from trying to get power, control and domination over others, and traumatizing them. Which begs the question: Maybe they are not enlightened enough to realize that? 

I doubt that most narcissists are even aware that most people who have any significant relationship with them experience trauma. If they knew the people in their lives experienced enough trauma, maybe they would stop, but they don't. 

I think most people know these days that trauma responses aren't healthy. The fawn, fight, freeze, flee trauma responses aren't healthy for the people who are experiencing them. If these trauma responses are further stuffed ("I'm going to pretend these situations never happened, and I'm going to live my life as though this and that never hurt me"), it's likely to be stored in the body and manifest as disease. It's been well documented that spousal abuse and particularly child abuse, and having a parent or spouse with Narcissistic Personality Disorder often means a compromised immunity and often a clipped longevity. 

Trauma causes stress - lots of it, and you only have to look to people who go through a car accident or rape to know how long lasting the effects are. Stuffed stress causes disease. And there is also evidence that has surfaced that when narcissists try to make situations and people stressed, they let go of their own stress while giving it to someone else. 

In my readings and research, I came across this class offering: How to Identify and Address the Survival Responses That Perpetuate Suffering and Block Therapy for NICABM (National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine)

excerpt:
     Develop a more targeted and nuanced approach to treating trauma

woman trapped in childhood trauma. There’s been a breakthrough in the way we treat trauma.
     For years, clients have presented with defensive adaptations to trauma that don’t fit within the fight-flight-freeze model you learned in grad school.
     And without the tools to identify and address these (often subtle) adaptations, many clients were left stuck, stagnant, and suffering.
     But recently, the top minds in our field have developed strategies to help us take a more targeted and nuanced approach with these “emerging” trauma responses . . .
     . . . and become more effective in our ability to help clients overcome unresolved trauma.

Those other trauma responses are:
* Attach/Cry for Help
* Collapse and Submit
* Please and Appease

All of these trauma responses are either going to mean dissociation, separation from the narcissist emotionally, or psychologically, or physically, and possibly through something I thought up, a Lie and Appease response (which is really just another version of the Please and Appease trauma response, but with added lies to keep the narcissist pleased even if internally you are not agreeing with everything they want, everything they demand, and everything they say - in other words you are pretending to go along until you can find a way to escape obligation). 

The reason why it would be traumatic is because lying brings with it some fear of being caught, and a lot of fear can cause anxiety, but most of all, stress.

Again, nothing is going to free you of stress in a relationship with a narcissist. 

Most of us bend towards healthy relationships, empathetic people, ethical people, people we can trust, people who are ultra-mature, and narcissists do not provide any of this. Again, if they aren't ripping you apart to your face (the general way they do this), then they are ripping you apart behind your back. It's going to be one or the other.

They can't be pleased and most of them make that known to you whether in the many criticisms and disrespectful comments they dole out, or subtly by not listening to what you have to say, being distracted when you talk, or looking bothered by your presence. It's not a happy place to be, and even for a lot of us, it's not a good enough relationship because we can't really say we trust them, or that we are happy with their level of empathy, or that we feel healthy, alive, appreciated, fulfilled and joyful in their presence and in relating to them. The never-enough-ness begins to mirror theirs and we waste years of our lives waiting for trustworthiness that doesn't exist in them, empathy that does not exist in them, being heard in an understanding "got it" kind of way that does not exist in them, appreciation for who we are which does not exist in them, feeling and being healthy in the relationship which does not exist because on-going trauma is not a space where good health can preside. 

Finding others who can match our level of empathy and respect can get rid of the never-enough-ness in us.

It won't for the narcissist (because finding others who match their empathy, and respect means relating to another never-enough-ness highly critical narcissist, and the whole "match" will seem like a whole lot of misunderstandings, arguments, duo rages, and no one willing to submit). 

FURTHER READING

Narcissistic Rage: Signs, Triggers, & How to Respond - by Nakpangi Thomas, PhD, LPC, TITC-CT, and medically reviewed by Dena Westphalen, Pharm.D 

Yes, people with narcissistic personality traits often feel like there is never enough - Google AI

Never Enough: The Narcissist’s Insatiable Curse - by Connolly Counselling Centre

I'm Never Enough for the Narcissist! - by Emily Mayfield for Mindset Therapy

7 Ways Narcissists Make You Feel Inferior - by Darius Cikanavicius for Psych Central

A vindictive narcissist is someone with narcissistic traits or NPD who is often cruel, callous, and mean towards others - Google AI

How Do You Say Goodbye to an Abusive Family Member? - by Frøydis Fossli Moe for The New York Times

Why Do Some People With Narcissistic Personality Act in Vindictive Ways? - by Simone Marie and Sandra Silva, and medically reviewed by Karin Gepp, PsyD for Psych Central

10 Signs of Vindictive Narcissism: Know When to Act - by Judge Anthony for the Judge Anthony website

Hidden Narcissist (Sometimes, the narcissist in your life is pretty well-hidden) - by Peg Streep and reviewed by Matt Huston for Psychology Today

What Drives The Vindictive Narcissist? - video by psychologist, Les Carter, for You Tube

How do you PROTECT yourself from the narcissists VINDICTIVENESS? - by Dr. Ramani Durvasula for You Tube

What Revenge Tactics You Can Expect from a Narcissist - by the editorial staff of Marriage.com and reviewed by  Maggie Martinez, LCSW 

Will a Narcissist Try to Get Revenge? - by Elijah Akin for Unfilteredd