A Domestic Violence Situation and Tale - from a well known Canadian Musician.

Hi everyone. Today I thought I'd share a video by J.P. Cormier. J.P. Cormier is a traveling musician from Canada and I've seen him in concert six times. Two of those times were with another musician by the name of Dave Gunning. You can catch a little of their music from a video on You Tube (Place: Celtic Colours International Festival. Song: Kate O’ The Gowrie. Arrangement: Dave Gunning and J.P. Cormier. Year: 2019).   

J.P. Cormier is a fantastic guitar player, and has admirable arrangements, songwriting skills, and does You Tube videos reviewing guitars, teaching various styles of playing, interviews and jam sessions with other musicians, and anything else he can think of. He's a highly acclaimed and well known musician in Canada. He is not as well-known in the USA, but frequently crosses the border to perform. 

Anyway, my husband, who also plays the guitar and is a multi-instrumentalist, likes to watch J.P.'s videos from time to time. And sometimes we watch them together. And was he surprised to come across a video from four years ago where J.P. Cormier discusses domestic violence and child abuse!

He had me sit down and watch it.  

So I thought I'd share that video with all of you too.

I appreciate J.P.'s candor and ability to talk about this subject without fear. I have a few comments following the video. 

See it here directly on You Tube:
"A Life in Music Ep. 69 - Showdown at the FU Corral"
or below:

Some of my comments:

People who commit domestic violence "often make themselves appear to be victimized by the partner they are actually abusing". - that quote and link is from Google AI. 

Victims of domestic violence can minimize the threat to themselves. - that link goes to DomesticShelters.org. 

Domestic violence victims can feel guilty for seeing their partner in jail. - that link also goes to DomesticShelters.org 

There are reasons why so few abusers change:

It is not very likely they will change - check this article from the National Abuse Hotline

Can Abusers Change? 5 Almost Impossible Obstacles Explained - by The Mend Project
- this article explains why:
* Perpetrators are in relationships to control the other person.  
* There is entitlement and double standards (i.e. "What's okay for me to do, isn't okay for you to do.")
* Family System bias (I usually call this "family prejudice", whether it be about choice of spouse, political leanings, weight, race, sex of person such as misogyny, disabilities, cultural leanings - usually there is something they've learned to be prejudiced about from their family of origin that is often multi-generational)
* Image control (undermining others to uphold status) - other articles refer to this as "efforts to achieve grandiosity at others' expense". 
* Low emotional IQ: "disinterest in others' emotions, resulting in controlling behaviors, lack of empathy, and defensiveness." - quote from the article. However, low emotional IQ can also be the result of brain chemistry in some perpetrators. 

My personal view on why narcissists tend not to change is all of these things, but I'll also add that when a person is mainly out to control others, dominate others and have power over others, they are not thinking about "how to treat others better", or "how to make up with others so that the relationship can grow and thrive", or even about "how to get along with others better". In other words, they are going after people and relationships for a totally different reason than the rest of us are. 

I also think part of the problem is that society is machine, utility, tool and toy oriented. We "use things" constantly to "make our lives easier and better". Somewhere in a budding abuser's brain, he or she got the idea that they can use people in the same way as they use a toy, a utility, a tool or a machine. If they see that it will work to a greater rather than lesser extent, they keep using people. 

People who use people to make their lives easier and better aren't looking at this "machine-person" or "toy-person", and trying to decipher its feelings. They are either thinking, "This toy or machine is working" or "not working". The person is either a useful toy or machine, or not a useful one.

They are either going to fix the toy-person or machine-person that works best for them, or in a way that "puts them back together the way they used to be." If they feel that the machine-person or toy-person will no longer work in the way they want it to again, or in the way that it used to, they have to make another choice. In fact, they are forced to make another choice.

And how do people treat toys and machines when they don't work the way want them to, or they used to, or are "supposed to"? Maybe they don't understand the mechanisms that make this toy or machine work or rebel. Someone who is rage-driven, control-driven and antagonistically driven as many perpetrators tend to be usually either gets mad at the machine or toy and stomps all over it, or throws it away in a fit of anger. And so: "Welcome to the world of domestic violence!" and for people in power who act like this, "Welcome to dictatorship!" too. 

Some questions/ruminations I have ... 

J.P. talks about pulling back from playing music performances with his wife (now ex), and playing with "guys" instead. "Pulling back" could have meant she was no longer making money, or that the music partnership was dissolving and that she didn't know what to do, or how to resolve it, or how to react, or what to do with her own music career. Maybe she couldn't think, and just found that her anger was building.

"Pulling back" might also mean, to some women, "fear of being abandoned, of marriage failure, of marriage dissolution, of marital money being only controlled by him, of marital harmony only controlled by him, of marital status only being controlled by him".

For someone who might be controlling, having the partner in control instead might have been interpreted as "deeply threatening", "deeply unnerving", "deeply provoking", or "of feeling threatened". Even if it is a "phantom threat", or a "possible threat", or a "threat of possibilities" of more withdrawal, an insecure person might lash out? Might turn a "phantom threat" into a "real threat" in her own mind?

Is it possible that this was the main impetus for "the scenes" in the room where he was sleeping? 

Granted, it's hard to figure out as he never really knew either. I'm making a few hypotheses based on what I know about "perpetrator behaviors", and the fact that these behaviors are often based on "control" of another person, or feeling "out of control" or "not controlling enough" when it comes to other people. 

Also, he was allegedly a victim of child abuse. And as a child, he learned to be afraid, and to walk away, as he saw that nothing was to be gained by violence, or sticking around to fight back. "Staying, getting mad, and fighting back can kill a person" because the body is fragile, and you can't be sure you are "saving someone" when you are fighting them at the same time, even in self defense.

He also says that guns and knives were pointed at him when he was a child. He admits in the video that his mind was filled with panic and fear, which was, perhaps, why his first instinct was to "get safe" by locking the door on his wife when she was trying to get back in the room. 

It sounds like his mind went wild, possibly envisioning guns and knives and other weapons pointed at him, similar to what he went through in childhood. 

Childhood memories and childhood trauma can have a big impact on how we react when we are adults - having guns and knives pointed at you, and being a victim of violence as a child, can impact the way you deal with scenes that might seem similar in adulthood. 

Anyway, those are some of my own thoughts on the matter ... 

Here are some more links:

Am I likely to be abused no matter what, i.e. be a victim of domestic violence again? Abuse escalates; it's very rare for it to de-escalate, whether that's physical abuse or emotional abuse or both. In other words, it tends increase in danger and in introduction to other types of abuses, not decrease.

Forgiving abusers is often not suggested (from Google AI):

Forgiving abusers is not required for healing and is often not suggested, as it can hinder recovery by enabling continued abuse, reducing necessary consequences for the abuser, and forcing premature closure. Trauma recovery focuses on the survivor’s safety and needs, making forgiveness a personal choice rather than a necessity, say Psychology Today. 

Key reasons why forgiving an abuser is often not recommended include:

* Risk of Further Abuse: Premature or forced forgiveness can lead to safety risks, enabling continued abuse.

* Lack of Accountability: Forgiving too quickly, especially without genuine repentance from the abuser, can remove necessary consequences for their actions.

* Hindering Healing: It may interrupt the necessary process of dealing with emotions like anger and grief, acting as a form of self-betrayal, notes YouTube.

* Not an Obligation: Survivors are not obligated to forgive to heal, and doing so should not be seen as a mandatory step in therapy.

The Truth About Forgiving Abuse With Valerie Hudson

Have you been told to forgive an emotionally abusive husband? Here's what you need to know. - by Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast

Going back to abusers and living in a cycle of constant reconciliations after abuse are often not suggested by therapists. 

Do a lot of adult children who have been abused or assalted during childhood end up being the victim of domestic violence or domestic abuse in adulthood? Yes. Abuse was normalized in the childhood home, so victims of child abuse tend to stay in relationships that are abusive in adulthood longer than most people do. 

Do a lot of adult children of child abuse end up in the arts? Yes. What the Google AI article reveals (partial):
Yes, research and anecdotal evidence suggest a significant link between childhood adversity—including abuse, neglect, and family dysfunction—and a higher likelihood of individuals pursuing careers in the arts. Studies indicate that traumatic childhoods can drive individuals to channel their pain into intense creativity, using art as a vehicle for emotional expression, recovery, and control.

What is Battered Wife Syndrome? (however this can manifest in men too). 

Anyway, I feel bad about what happened to him. It doesn't surprise me that he turned to the guitar and to performing considering all of what he endured. There are things in life that relieve trauma better than others, and the rhythms, modes of practice and time alone have something in common with trauma therapies. Even the most common therapy, EMDR, has a very rhythmic element to it. I think this is why, in part, people who have gone through abuse turn to arts professions. Some of it also has to do with acceptance based on competence, and even "perfectionism". And some of it has to do with social elements like being part of a tribe of other people in the arts. 

I find a lot of former victims are "nature bugs" too: hikers, photographers of nature, animal caretakers, people who enjoy being outdoors more than indoors, world or country travelers, traveling salesmen, farmers who enjoy farming the old way with horses, people who work in wildlife professions, etc. Again, there are elements of this that may have some resemblence to trauma therapy too. 

At some point I will share some of my findings about this phenomenon. I'm probably not going to be able to bring up individual names, but there is no harm in bringing up the subject in ways that may be really helpful to others. 

Thank you, J.P. for being so open. May it help others. 

A New Course on How to Break Through the Defenses of Narcissists?

Yes, there is a new course being offered to both professionals and "anyone interested" in how to break through the defensive behaviors of narcissists. 

On Facebook, the advertisement appears this way:

The writing below it says this:

Working with narcissistic clients is one of the most challenging tasks therapists encounter.

It becomes even more complex when faced with their defensiveness, grandiosity, and lack of self-awareness – all designed to guard against vulnerability.

So, how do we get through these layers of defense? How do we create a therapeutic alliance that encourages vulnerability and empathy in these clients? Even more so, how can we be effective when traditional interventions seem to bounce off their fortified walls?

To answer these questions, we've curated this comprehensive, targeted online course featuring 22 of the world's leading experts in treating narcissism. Take a look: https://www.nicabm.com/program/fb-narcissism-1/...

Another advertisement on Facebook goes like this:

(CLOSING NOW) Dissolving the Defenses That Sustain Narcissism - Expert 

The course features a well known psychiatrist, Bessel van der Kolk, MD who wrote the famous book, The Body Keeps the Score. This book is on the must-read list if you are going to college or graduate school and your major is a psychology degree or a Masters in Social Work in trauma research and/or trauma therapy. 

Some of the other names associated with this course are: Janina Fisher, PhD, Peter Levine, PhD,   Jennifer Sweeton, PsyD, Ron Siegel, PsyD, Lynn Lyons, LICSW, Russell Kolts, PhD, Zindel Segal, PhD, Shelly Harrell, PhD 

When you click on the link, you get this:

https://www.nicabm.com/program/fb-narcissism-1/

There is also a course on how to treat victims.

This is one of the advertisements for this course:

Helping patients heal from trauma is one of the most challenging things therapists do.  

It becomes infinitely more challenging when a patient is missing one key experience – a stable, secure relationship.  

So how do we work with patients who are missing those cherished relationships? Beyond that, what do we do when traditional talk therapies don’t work?  

That’s why we've created this short, focused online course with 5 of the world’s top trauma treating experts. Take a look: https://www.nicabm.com/program/a2-attachment-fb2/...

As for narcissists in treatment, I'm fine with professionals tackling this. However, if you've ever been in a personal relationship with a narcissist, or trauma bonded with one, and you suggest therapy with the idea that the narcissist is going to heal by examining and giving up on their defensive/aggressive strategies, and that by inference you will heal, and that your relationship will heal too, I don't see how it can work at all. They are more likely to rage at your suggestion that they need treatment. That is what fortification does; that is what grandiosity with defensiveness does; that is what only focusing on how much power, control and domination they have in relationships does. 

Also if there is a power differential between you and the narcissist thinks you are less powerful than they are, suggesting this therapy could be a disaster, and dangerous in some situations. That's my take on it.

If they want to go on their own, it's another story.

If this was me, I wouldn't even suggest it. I also say this from experience dealing with this type of personality disorder. Most of them don't look at therapy as a learning experience or useful; they look at it as a put-down, something they use to shame other individuals mental capacities, emotional capacities, inability to get along with others, or if they insinuate that you are mentally challenged for not taking orders from them. Because of this, most of them will not look upon therapy in a positive light because of the way they use it in conflicts and arguments: "You need to get a grip; you need therapy bad!", "You sound insane. You need to see a shrink," "You need to stop. If you don't, I'll get you committed" and so on.

I'm not sure how they take situations that have very little chance of being resolved without therapy (going together for instance, like in marriage counseling), but even there they mostly will be rooting for themselves and manipulating to get their own way, calling you crazy for resisting control and domination, putting themselves in a dictator position, deciding to be a lecturer, and it won't be productive. Psychologists who deal with patients undergoing narcissistic abuse generally do not advise going to marriage counseling at all, and actually say it should be avoided. They usually suggest detaching yourself from the narcissist instead.

Also, if they are sometimes willing to go to therapy they can become more sneaky covert narcissists. I just can't see any positive benefit of suggesting it to a narcissist at this time, and with the knowledge I have about the issues surrounding narcissists, unless you are a therapist, or life coach, or someone who just wants to take this course to learn something, I really think the narcissist would only go to therapy at your suggestion to find a way to show that they can tough it out and that it's an "easy course", or to be resistant to it, or to challenge it, or to prove to you that they can go but that it isn't useful to them at all because you should be in therapy because you're the crazy one. I think most of us have been around and around many, many times with these narcissistic defenses and the inevitable attacks that come with narcissistic defenses.  

I have not seen anyone in a "trauma bond experience" with a narcissist get anywhere except a worsening trauma bond (and that's after hearing at least a thousand stories from survivors of narcissistic abuse) -  nothing lessens the trauma bond unless they find ways to mostly separate. With a power differential (parent and child, for instance), the trauma bond is even more destructive and pronounced, and I doubt any parent is going to go along with a child, grown or not, estranged or not, who says their parent needs to be in treatment for their personality disorder, or that issues between you need to be worked out in a therapeutic professional setting.

But for a boss to put a worker with traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder into a program of therapy, maybe it can help. The worker may do a better job, or be less contentious and less adversely competitive, stick to work rather than dirty gossip, and all of the other pitfalls narcissists fall into in the workplace, then it might do some good. How much good it does in anything other than a work situation, I don't know. Maybe they go home and kick the dog and spouse after therapy. Maybe not.

If you want to get some perspectives on what psychologists, therapists, life coaches and a little bit of the public are saying about this, I suggest reading the following comments (all of which are on the Facebook advertising pages for this course too - and available to see on that page for anyone).  

* OMG. Totally here for this!!! And super interested… You’re doing the Lord’s work I agree, at the heart of it is a wounded child and TRAUMA!!! It’s also really hard for narcissists to change, but kudos to those who try  Luv u Bessel!

* I experienced a client who after cutting through these barriers would silently cry during sessions because it was so difficult to see herself as being wrong minded and accepting responsibility for her behaviors. But even through the tears she seemed to slowly appreciate the therapy. I agree tools are important when dealing with narcissistic personalities. Some truly struggle with seeing themselves as good.

* I'm an experienced life coach over decades & humans never fail to inspire me ….to learn more … As I develop insights into this patterning … I’m a little freaked by how this information might be applied without experience / expertise. I love that we can develop insights .. just mindful that to walk this delicate topic needs support .. keep connected to supervision groups as you navigate this arena.

* I think the training along with the life skills that therapists excel, can empower and change lives. I do not have any misconceptions about their gifts, mission, and knowledge. I appreciate and highly respect the life path they have chosen. Some of the resources therapists and doctors find for their clients are coaches. I have worked with both. Professional coaches have their place as well. I hope that they have training and are certified. I'd loved to see coaches in our schools K-12 teaching mindfulness etc. I believe that there is a place for all people with a passion to hone their gifts, talents, and abilities to contribute to others.

* schema therapy has had good results with narcissism

* An empathetic narcissist seems like an oxymoron. And how many even seek treatment since they think nothing is wrong with them?

* they absolutely think something is wrong with them. Which is why that facade feels so real. It’s a fully realized self that puts all the things they hate about themselves and buried it deep as possible. It’s a defense/coping mechanism. It’s something that can often be triggered on or off too

* if you realize they feel everything and then deflect it, hypersensitive. The vulnerability is there.

* What type of narcissism is this course focused on?
As far as I understand, treating perverse narcissism or the narcissism of "integrated psychopaths", for example, can be counterproductive as these types of personalities use what they "learn" in therapy to continue disguising their condition and manipulating others.

NICABM

* If you click on the link to the program, there should be a brief description of the content that is talked about in the course. Hope this helps!

* I was very careful when exiting my relationship to give him as little information as possible that might make him more effective for the next woman. I had watched him learn and manipulate with me. The less we give them to improve their tactics, the better! --- This is one reason I would never work with someone with strong narcissistic or psychopathic traits.

* Think of narcissism, like most things on a spectrum. You are referring to the extreme end, which is more so just one aspect of antisocial personality disorder. I don’t believe that is what they are referring to in this advertisement but rather the mild to moderate range, which tends to be more associated with learned defensive strategies due to trauma/negative life experiences. People can also be very successful and have elevated levels of healthy narcissism that may be important to be mindful with how it comes out in times of stress. It can get confusing fast, for sure!

* Narcissism exists on a spectrum for sure. But if someone truly has NPD this would be difficult to treat as many professionals and researchers in mental health will say again and again NPD is hard to treat. This is why insurances don’t pay you to treat NPD. Hard to treat NPD. But yeah you can ameliorate narcissistic behaviors for sure as we all have done these as a result of maladaptive childhood attachments.

* patterns of behavior do in fact, validate a view point.
Society is being educated and taught how to spot abusive behavior.
The word abuse can replace the word narcissism in every situation.
the pattern of behavior is very identifiable quickly in these individuals
the number one pattern to show itself early is the compliment with put down technique to start the confusion and trauma bond early.
for example, wow, that is a nice looking sweater, but I think you belong in a more sporty looking outfit. This sweater is for someone older than you.
this is a compliment with a direct hit to your confidence.
the sweater is nice
but it's not for you
someone older would choice it
(the comment is supposed to reinforce you look younger but at the same time, makes you start to doubt you know who you are and what is right for yourself.)

* Patterns evolve rapidly and are identifiable quickly following the honeymoon period/love bombing stage.
when the victim looks back they see the strategic placement of doubt into the victims head started almost immediately
for me, it was the first date, the second day I knew the person.

* Exactly. I also take an attachment/trauma informed approach, because that's what I believe it is. They want to be seen. They want to know their existence matters. They feel like nothing, because needs weren't met. They are wounded. Yalom talks about the group approach as being the only way to really get them to heal. I have found this so helpful, as long as only one narcissist is in the group. Protect him from being called out in a cruel way, but let him be called out. Let him see that he's safe in the boundaries of the group leader, but the BS cannot be thrown around and the focus on themselves will only go so far. Others have problems and want to be seen, too.

* there’s no such thing as an “actual diagnosis.” It’s just a checklist with a bunch of behaviors listed and somebody just says “yeah I think you fit this” or “I don’t think you do.” There’s your super scientific diagnosis.

* Thank you for pointing this out. I recently watched a narcissist use therapy to strengthen their manipulation tactics and it was gut wrenching. Made me wonder if there is any hope at all for people with NPD.

* I knew a sociopathic woman who faked stability and empathy because of the $100k her mother paid for her to go to therapy. She caused turmoil everywhere she went, but I did not know this at first. She was psychologically sophisticated and knew how to manipulate with words.
     She was building a case to extort money from her parents as her father did things that messed her up. She tried to steal MY dad's house through the court system (she was a fake caregiver) so her mother gave her four houses worth $1.5 million to get her to leave everyone alone.
     When her father died, there was security at his funeral in case she showed up.
     It's been seven years and it's still hard to think about.

* Seen this myself unbelievable how they can learn to manipulate so well but can’t learn to follow through on integrity. Still blows my mind
     it was a nightmare. I should be able to write about this experience someday and publish it because it was like being in a horror film. It's people like this who predate on the elderly and children.
     Giving therapy to a psychopath just makes them more able to manipulate people for devious ends.

* that's what my husband has done over the years and I've become more manipulated and eventually labeled the narc in the smear campaign. Thank goodness for endless recordings to prove the truth behind his mask. Masks always slip!

* I'm not a therapist but this is a wonderful course for explaining how to deal with narcissism in every day life.
     Step 1: Don't
     - Tricky if it’s a family member!

* don't worry, I'm way beyond trying to change them! I'm just trying to understand what's going on for them. Neither live with me but they cause havoc in our family. One is coming to stay for 6 weeks while my husband's away so this is for me! The family member will be in their own suite so I am working on maintaining healthy boundaries.

* I'm wondering if it's a bi-product of societal conditioning within our current generation...not to say they didn't exist outside of this generation.... but with the break down of the nuclear family system... they seem more prevalent than ever!

* we need it because they are everywhere and a lot more common than ppl like to think.

* Unfortunately narcissistic patients are very sensitive to embracing their behaviors and opinions about themselves. It feels discouraging at the slow progress. But it’s possible with patience and dedication.

* respectfully, this is not the case for malignant narcissists , bordering on psychotic…..it just isn’t. Therapists need to consider taking the same course as victims. Block phone calls and emails. Don’t walk, run.

*extremely rare, typically not worth the trouble. Usually they become grifters.

* With patience and dedication anyone who wants to heal, can.

* yep, exactly that. Some it educates for the better and actually helps them, the others, teaches them how to evade getting found out again. It's a risk

* true! I’ve seen it over and over again . The most difficult of personalities.

* The people who need therapy are usually the ones who have been harmed in a close relationship with a narcissistic individual.

* I can’t even imagine having a profession where you have to deal with these people all the time. You counselors must have some upgraded steel grit.

* In my experience, the narcissist is only half the problem. The people that cover for and support the narcissist are the other half -- at least.

* Start with the therapists themselves. And the MDs.

* therapy and medicine have an in-built power imbalance. Some try to reduce the inequality as far as possible (never completely possible in that dynamic), some relish the role of ‘expert’ a little too much… We all have egos. Unfortunately the sense of power one can have if not careful in those fields often attracts those who will misuse it, consciously or unconsciously, to varying degrees along that spectrum.(Disclosure: I am a therapist working with health, a therapy client and a patient!)

* Monetizing Narcissism what a concept…

* Those of us impacted by narcissistic people in our lives can change our behaviors so we don't enable their dysfunction. We have power we can exercise that can effectively decrease the negative influence that narcissists put into the world.

* I would like to know more how to deal with one of the serious side effects of these attacks….anxiety. Sometimes the victim of narcissism wants to heal, but feels overwhelmed, incapable. It’s not a choice to experience anxiety.

NICABM

when you purchase a course from us you are given online access forever and can begin the course whenever you'd like. Our courses are geared towards mental health and healthcare practitioners, but people from all walks of life have been able to benefit from them. Plus, we have a 30-day money back guarantee if you decide the course isn't for you.
     I hope this helps!

* The core of narcissism is an extremely negative self-concept. They can't accept any more negative, which is why they often for periods of time can't consciously look at what's wrong (and to be honest most "normal" people have trouble with this too on a certain level), or be near people who think there is something wrong. It's very hard for them to feel safe in their imperfection, which makes the therapeutic alliance so hard to create.

* The NICABM courses are invaluable & never stop learning. I’ve learnt so much to help my understanding. My share was around my concerns for how practices are applied and how vital it is for us as practitioners to stay connected to supervision groups. I have a number of psychologists & specialists that I refer my clients onto as we bump into arenas that are not my expertise.

* no health professional, regardless of training or experience, should be free of being questioned. A good one will welcome it and be fully transparent. In addition, the most important source of feedback is our clients, or in this case, our target audience, not other "top professionals". As a psych of many years experience, i welcome and take on board all comments, criticisms and information, to help continually build my skills and provide a service that my client base actually find helpful.

* I am a manual therapist specializing in visceral and neural manual therapy of the Vagus nerve complex, and I have clients with complex trauma regularly being traumatized by Somatic Experiencing done by other therapists that should never be practicing this work.
It’s not ethical to traumatize your clients and develop trauma bonds with them as part of “healing” process. And it’s not necessary. Somatic Experiencing should not be applied with most people that it is used with for treatment of trauma history.
It’s probably only ethical and useful in a very few number of cases.. and should be used as a triage.. we as therapists should not be actively and purposefully triggering and traumatizing people in sessions.
A lot of techniques get taught to whoever has the money to pay for them, then those people use them with clients when they should not be using them.
I teach manual therapy to align the nervous system to shift away from the trauma response and start a path of healing… without more trauma.

* my experience with nearly every one I have treated and talked to not in my clinic that has had an SE session has described it as retraumatizing, so maybe you are the exception to the rule, but people are certainly not applying the somatic work correctly then, and that is a problem. I’ve not heard from one person that says it was actually helpful after they have stepped back from the trauma bond that it creates with the therapist. This is just my experience with interviewing colleagues, friends, and clients that have had the work. My philosophy is that people don’t need to relive any part of their trauma. The body can let the “score” go, with proper physical and energetic release and alignment. Just as a body can “keep the score” through a mechanism beyond consciousness, it can also let it go. No talking or retraumatization is necessary.
If you are interested in learning how, and the theories and science behind it, check out the link I posted.

* Unfortunately SE training is open to pretty much everyone so there are people without any education or license using SE. Also, if you're doing SE correctly, it wouldn't retraumatize because SE is all about titration and safety. Sometimes, I even say inevitably, you will come up against someone's window of tolerance and you may not know where the line is until you've crossed it. But, hopefully, a licensed therapist has been working that client prior to any trauma therapy, helping them build a toolkit of containment strategies for this very reason. trauma therapy is challenging. You will be exposed, however titrated, to the very things that traumatized you in the first place. I am a licensed clinical social worker who specialized in treating trauma. I have also been a patient in trauma therapy many times over. It's tough work, but with a skilled therapist it's amazing. EMDR, SE, IFS - these therapies have been life savers. I completely disagree with you that trauma can be completely "let go" first of all, and second of all I do not believe that it can be released by body work alone. I believe body work can be really helpful and release stuff. But it's not the be all and end all. That doesn't exist. If you understand complex trauma you would know people have deeply held core wounding narratives that cannot simply be massaged away. They have significant challenges with regulating their emotions, and often have significantly disrupted relationships because trust has been destroyed and they have experienced profound betrayal. These things cannot simply be resolved my manual therapy. I think you have serious blinders here and are biased. And honestly, unless you studied and are licensed in psychology, social work, counseling or marriage and family therapy, and then trained in other modalities to treat trauma, you have a very limited frame of reference to even discuss the treatment of trauma.

* If it was a blanket statement that I originally intended to include “all” mental health professionals in (which I never stated once that such a thing applied to all mental health professionals) perhaps your remark would be useful to emphasize “not all professionals”; I actually agree with you so why bring this up again?
Coaches, I did not imply, stated or by mind reading, that they are more likely to be trauma informed; only that I wouldn’t criticize someone for furthering their own personal education of what it means to be trauma informed *within their scope to know to whom they might redirect their clients to those who might help them better.
Professionals do not get the gilded “privilege” of being a gatekeeper to guiding people in need to their next steps. Any individual (coach, minister, volunteer, friend, etc) can help guide others to resources. No one need be limited to give such help. I’ve personally recommended friends get diagnosed for further treatment for cptsd and/or ptsd. Medical gaslighting is a common occurrence in the medical field. You can best believe I’m going to encourage ppl who are showing signs of cptsd or ptsd to seek help and not withhold such direction/resources if they request additional help or advice?
I’ve been seeing mental health professionals since middle school. I’m 41… I can count double digits for me personally for any type of mental health professional with which I have *not personally received trauma informed care. This is just me. Double digits. “Trauma informed” has evolved to mean different things even in the past 3-5 years. I’m grateful for the evolution for which Nicabm has shown commitment toward developing the next generation of supercharged advocates, no matter how many hours of Accreditation or licenses etc they have.
It’s much needed in the field. I’ve heard this by many patients in the chronic illness communities and I’ve experienced it on the receiving end personally. I’m not a fan of perfection but striving toward excellence in any pursuit.
Pathologizing is, in fact, a bigger problem than you are currently seeing from your credentialed perspective.
See the receiving side and you will hear a different story. I am in the trenches with many with chronic conditions.
I have changed many lives over my past 15 years’ experiences as a volunteer for one of the largest online health communities in the world for just *one of the conditions that I have.
I appreciate your credentials and they are noted. Your experiences will continue to evolve. And I’m giving you a free, valuable and unique perspective from having been in the trenches with 100k strong members with Hashimoto’s for almost 15 years. I will continue to advocate for underprivileged and undeserved communities to continue to put patients first and direct them to best possible resources, as I have done for free for years.
I have easily put in over 2,000 hours myself as a volunteer myself over the years for the express purpose of improving quality of life.
The importance of trauma informed and properly educated professionals is not lost on me. It most certainly is not and i reject any implications to that effect that I am not in touch with the patient side of this problem, personally or otherwise.

* In reply to “some patients are too complicated for life coaches”
That’s why you see multiple practitioners for however many conditions that you have.
I’m never ever going to criticize a coach for going above and beyond to point their clients to best possible resources and practitioners based on their needs in the moment.
I referenced that I myself received trained “peer support”
Peers understand a lot more than many would even realize. They point to resources just like life coaches do. Trauma informed professionals of all kinds simply do a better job at their jobs as trauma informed professionals on an “off day” and give supports better than seeing a pathologizing professional on their “best” day.

* you do know that Bessel Van Der Kolk is THE leading trauma expert in the world yeah?
You can't get much more experienced or expert than that

* I do - his work has hugely impacted my life & just reread Body keeps the Score for 3rd time

* I think this is why we go to 7+ years of school and work under years of direct supervision……4 years of undergrad, 1-3 years of volunteering, 3 years of grad schoo, 2-3 years of direct weekly supervision.
Coaching is !#@!

* I definitely agree. Do not operate out of your areas of certification and expertise. People can cause harm to other thru ignorance, even tho they had good intentions… a mind is a delicate thing to mess with

* messing with the mind is exactly what narcissists do to their victims...no certification required at all there!

* I think this is the difference between being a coach and clinician. Clinicians have ethical training and clinical training to work with this and every population with respect to every person’s human dignity however challenging the therapeutic work is and where every person is more human than any label or heterogenous population however homogenous it might seem. I agree supervision is critical for any therapist. I think where your comment is applicable is if folks who are not therapists are signing up for this course. I do think for topics like this is should be limited to licensed/certified therapists.

I’m actually relieved to see a course like this instead of the usual toxic, pop psychology driven articles, videos and even more disturbingly courses that vilify a whole group of people with any diagnosis - particularly ones associated with insufficient parental attachment, environmental and or genetic factors that are out of that persons control in ways that ironically are not very empathic or ethical. So be thoughtful with your comment because it reflects an inappropriate tendency in the lay world to arm chair diagnose, demonize and act out of lack of scope of expertise in ways that are dehumanizing and harmful.
There’s some great research on early therapeutic interventions in the juvenile justice system with adolescents exhibiting sociopathic traits (before their of age to diagnose) usually with oppositional defiant disorder diagnoses resulting in significant outcomes like profoundly lower recidivism and in one study a zero murder rate following release. That’s is a more extreme setting with kids exhibiting these traits, acting out criminally abs leading to incarceration suggesting a lot of promise for those with traits somewhere on the anti social scale who aren’t acting out criminally. As long as there is a lanaguage of demonization we get in the way of humane treatment and research.
We have an ethical obligation to get beyond this language of implicitly or explicitly vilifying any population as some sort of dark threat while also balancing that without having any naïveté about the risks of working with some individuals with certain diagnoses that pose some risks to the clinician. Hopefully this course has mindful discussions about these challenges in ways that do not demonize clients, which ironically lacks the very empathy as well that certain populations are demonized for having limited quantities of or ability to access. One thing that has given me hope for people with this and other more challenging diagnoses is brain scanning of individuals with high sociopathic checklist scores have shown they can can access empathy centers if they are instructed to try to although those centers don’t light up in response to certain exposures like those without these scores do. That to me suggests the possibility to cultivate interventions that help rewire those parts of brains. The key is to begin with not vilifying a population that gets in the way of research and humane care for all with human dignity.
We all also need narcissistic traits to function with healthy self concept, which is why there are positive and negative narcissistic and psychopathic traits. Acknowledging that is one way to move beyond a language of exclusively demonization or any demonization. We can present the negative traits as toxic patterns that no longer serve the individual and that were often coping mechanism developed by a resilient child to transcend what no child should face - whether biologically, environmentally or genetically.
Furthermore, we have been humbled into realizing how wrong our prognoses are. The fact that borderline personality was once considered challenging to treat and in some ways resistant to treatment but that now has been shown quite responsive to dialectical behavioral therapy is an example of how treatment failure is not the patients fault when there are not successful therapeutic interventions available - it is the medical fields lack of a treatment. It’s also interesting to me dialectical behavioral therapy is derivative of Zen Buddhism, which I think is another humbling commentary on the limitations of mainstream science and it’s tendency toward dehumanizing labels and negative beliefs about outcomes that set the stage for poor outcomes.

* therapists do focus on goals and moving forward. That is a common misconception most coaches seem to have. Trauma, mental health issues, poverty, abuse, and a ton of other problems can make it hard to reach goals or most people would have already done it. That's why licensed therapists can help by first diagnosing the issue and then coming up with a plan to heal trauma and find resources so that the person can reach their preferred future. There is so much that goes into it and it's frightening that "coaches" are dabbling in helping with things that take therapists at least 6 years of college, 1,000 hours of unpaid internship, two years of employed supervision time and passing two state licensing exams to be able to help with. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't portraying themselves as qualified to help with personally disorders and mental health issues.

* I absolutely understand your point and it is scary how many people call themselves a coach these days. I’ve thought about this a lot because I’m actually a trauma coach with a psychology background. So just to throw some points out there to debate the other side, some things are actually limiting in the therapy world. Dealing with insurance and over focus on diagnosis (at least in a Eurocentric lens). And also, the academic world (which again is so important!) doesn’t really make room for life experience. I’ve done extensive trauma training and although it’s been integral in how I work, my “school of life” and spiritual experiences are the core of what I draw from. I think that’s why a lot of people are drawn to see a coach. I think there’s room for both. But I definitely agree how scary it is when people try to help others without proper training.

* wow, I didn’t know that narcissist behavior could change ! Maybe there’s hope in the world after all !

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