When Narcissists Pit Children Against Each Other to Win Their Affection, This is What It is Largely About

When narcissists pit children against each other to compete for the parent's affection, validation and resources, the outcome has already been decided. It's not like this parent is thinking really hard about who should win each competition they set up, who should come first, who should get more affection and who should be shamed and shunned. 

They put children in roles, usually at least by age four (at the latest - but I'd say that two year olds present the biggest challenge to a narcisistic parent because two year olds start being head-strong, exploratory and they wander off in ways that can be seen to be adverse to such a parent, and also there isn't the kind of "transactional relationship" that narcissists crave and often demand that can be extracted from a two year old, plus there is very little narcissistic supply you can get out of a two year old). So I'd say that is when it starts for a large number of narcissists. 

In some narcissistic families roles are sometimes based on the sex of individuals, or the "perceived strength" and "power" of an individual "the child who appears most 'acceptable' to others, the most capable looking, the kid who is deemed to grow up to be the most accomplished, the kid who will make the parent 'look good', the kid who is more even-tempered or unreactive when provoked" ...  

Anyway, it is these roles that decide the attitude and outcome of the narcissistic parent: "the golden child can do 'no wrong'; the golden child can think 'no wrong'; the golden child 'comes first and is always best'". Then the attitude towards the scapegoat is "they 'can't do anything right', they can't 'think clearly and are inept in their thinking style or they are bat-sh*t crazy', and therefor the scapegoat must 'always be last', in importance, in getting affection, care, or family resources, or attention." 

Narcissists feel they absolutely need, and they constantly crave "narcissistic supply" which is a fancy way of saying attention, importance, admiration, envy, respect, devotion, being able to control you and others in any and every situation, being the absolute center of attention, getting what they think they are entitled to get, getting people angry, getting people upset, getting 'the best transaction out of their children'."

And how do they get this out of their own children? - by setting up competitions between their children. A golden child can be bashing the hell out of a scapegoat sibling, and it often is met with cold indifference because the important thing to them is "They are fighting over me! How sweet!" - and by the way, that link is worth exploring. 

And what makes this dynamic "double trouble" is that narcissists don't have the empathy to feel anything different. 

Narcissists often need both positive narcissistic supply and negative narcissistic supply to tell themselves that they matter to other people. 

Because the golden child is treated like gold, and wins these dreadful competitions over and over again, he's very likely to provide the narcissist with positive narcissistic supply: praise for the parent to get praise from the parent, affection for the parent in order to get affection from the parent, attention to every word the narcissist says in return for positive attention from the parent. And some golden children will do anything for the parent's approval in return for the parent's approval of them, allowing the parent to control them in return for even more approval. The darker side of this is that when the parent insists that the child ignore or bully a sibling or the other parent, or to disparage a sibling or other parent, the golden child may go along with it to keep receiving affection, accoldaes, prizes, attention, and loyalty from the narcissistic parent.  It can get him the best kind of transaction from the parent, and the parent can get the best transaction from the child as well, and keeps other siblings from being rewarded, or even noticed much. 

And because the scapegoat is treated like crap unless the "golden child has fallen off the narcissistic parent's imaginary pedastal", the parent is likely to get a constant flow of negative narcissistic supply out of the scapegoat. Narcissists crave as much negative narcissistic supply as they do positive narcissistic supply. They feel it is an "existential threat" to them if they lose, or are without, narcissistic supply.
   We only have to look to despotic world dictators with a lot of narcissistic traits to see that they crave this: doing invasions, breaking international laws by killing civilians and bombing their homes and communities, doing everything they can to get others to capitulate to their demands, getting positive narcissistic supply from some countrymen, and other dictators or would-be-dictators, for appearing invincible and audacious. In the meantime, they "divide and conquer" their countrymen to see who is totally on their side, and who seems totally against them (in terms of power), and they attempt to get rid of the people who contest their power, and bait their scapegoats (usually foreigners, the disabled, the elderly, women, immigrants, people of different cultural or racial backgrounds than their own) to suppress, punish, shun, disparage, and outlaw. It's usually always a despotic dictator's playbook.

But back to the narcissist in your personal life:
   Most narcissists also take wild chances to keep the attention on themselves, much of it impulsively driven. 
   If they are malignant narcissists, which most despotic tyrants usually are, they get off on the suffering of others because it shows them that they can affect others negatively, and get what they want, and it's powerful narcissistic supply for them too ("I can make other people suffer so much; they have to think about me all of the time; and they will eventually capitulate to my great and invincible power, and be punished for defying me").
   So what is negative narcissistic supply? Tears, fear, heartbreak, resistance from being controlled (especially if the narcissist targets those they see as too weak, disabled or ill to fight back - which they usually do), and singling out a scapegoat for narcissistic rage and prejudice. If necessary, they seek assistance from all family members and others so that they gain no resistance to their aggressions against the scapegoat.
   WARNING: When people turn a blind eye to what the narcissist is doing, and validate, enable and enforce the narcissist for abusing, raging and scapegoating, even if the narcissist uses false narratives to achieve those ends, unless the scapegoat can escape, these acts will tend to escalate.
   Part of negative narcissistic supply is also baiting the scapegoat to get angry.
   Trying to get the scapegoat to feel fear is also part of negative narcissistic supply. And what do they want scapegoats to feel afraid of? Threats. Punishments. Being invalidated, proved unworthy of listening to or deserving of affection. The "absolute power" of the narcissistic parent to do anything they want to the scapegoat, including damaging outcomes. Of being excommunicated or shunned from the family. Of being "canceled out" and "threatened into renouncing their own autonomy to put the parent's needs and feelings first always". The absolute loss of autonomy. Being continually controlled and abused. Being mocked, degraded, and laughed at for the narcissist's family entertainment. Being isolated from any authentic affection, friends, caring family members, and belonging (i.e. total entrapment). Fear of the narcissist's smear campaigns. Getting others to withdraw any kind of authentic love, support or understanding of the scapegoat's plight (the narcissistic parent  decides what kind of affection and attention a scapegoat is to receive from others, if any).
   With malignant narcissists it can mean fear that they will launch a home invasion, stalk, steal from them, have things they've made or deeply valued destroyed. Having one's children and spouse turned against them. Fear of physical harm, and often fear of "their presence" in their life. Fear of them "intruding" in their life in some way, or knocking on the door, or "retaliating" in ways that will cause deep pain.
   Note: The reason why narcissists want their scapegoats afraid of them and in pain is to get an internal surge of power which translates into a big dopamine high for them, but also to get the scapegoat to capitulate to being at fault. 
   Also note: Most scapegoats want a malignant narcissist out of their life instead because of the destruction they cause. It's just a matter of time until the destruction comes out. 

When a narcissistic parent has at least two children, they are probably getting all of the positive and negative narcissistic supply that they crave (at least in terms of what children are capable of giving). They see this dual narcissistic supply as regulating their own self esteem, moods, and their feelings of "being great and superior to others". 

WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING

Narcissists have several issues going on:

* They don't feel empathy (they have cognitive empathy, i.e. realize someone is upset, and may feel remorse over it if they think it will ruin their public standing or feelings of superiority in their narcissistic supply's eyes). Lack of affective empathy in narcissists is a brain issue, but also narcissists really don't want to know what other people go through or are feeling unless it concerns their ego. 

* They tend to think in black and white terms called "splitting": this means that the "golden child" will often be looked at as "all good, all of the time" and the scapegoat will be looked as "all bad, all of the time". 

* Narcissists have an extreme form of confirmation bias and rarely investigate anything, and tend to go with their own opinions about events and judgements about others. 

* Narcissists tend to project all of their own good qualities on to the golden child, and all of their own bad qualities on to the scapegoat. They rarely, if ever, try to put themselves in the shoes of others to understand their perspectives, or investigate, so they rarely have perspectives about others that change. 

* Narcissists tend to be prejudiced, especially about their scapegoats. 

* They pressure other people to alter reality so that the narcissist can avoid accountability for their actions, and to assure themselves that they are always in charge of how others speak, and of the narrative. ... (another link)

* Narcissists only appreciate scapegoats in terms of avoiding responsibilities for their own faults and flaws and to transfer the blame to the scapegoat. Once a scapegoat is no longer useful to them in this way, they generally discard the scapegoat. 

* Scapegoat children are rarely appreciated, or even understood, but narcissists often try to entrap them so that they can have the narrative that the scapegoat is always at fault and to get the negative narcissistic they crave. 

If you are a scapegoat and don't want to be someone's negative narcissistic supply any more, or are really sick and tired of giving any part of supply to them at all (and getting hypervigilant symptoms), you can choose to leave. Most scapegoats leave their narcissistic families anyway, this day and age or they are discarded for not staying in role. 

Many people who are being abused in family and domestic situations seek out help from domestic violence centers to talk about how to leave safely and with enough resources to ensure survival, and to be able to "move beyond" the narcissistic family system. And by the way, "emotional abuse" counts as domestic violence at most domestic violence shelters and centers. 

Other solutions aren't great, but you can always try gray-rocking, Jade and DEEP methods if you feel they might work enough while you consider alternatives to your life within or without the narcissistic family system. 

   Note: I recommend this following video by Jerry Wise, but some of your reactions may be different from what he states.
   For instance, when I left a narcissistic system, I didn't feel guilt (what he says you can feel) as much as panic: heart racing, feeling I had to live up to my usual role in order to avoid the consequences of narcissistic punishments at a super challenging time in my life (explanation below).
   I was used to trying to "regulate" narcissists, or at least "dodge and weave" the worst ones, and in a lot of ways programmed to do it (my intention of writing this little story is for the sake of differences with some of Jerry Wise's assertions, not to expose any particular narcissists, and I do keep them anonymous in this post). 
   Anyway, I was re-wording events so they didn't sound like "they'd be threats to a narcissist's ego" - yea, I know the job that keeps on giving you more jobs ...  calming them down, or taking words back to re-word, and re-explain, and re-explain again. I thought I could slowly ease the situation and make things more clear, and, as most of us do when we feel we have to - explaining, explaining, explaining (most often to deaf ears), but also doing my best to keep to the reality of events too, and not just give into narcissistic denials and fantasies about what was happening. 
   So when the narcissists went off the rails after I pulled away for good reasons (medical crises at home, an accident of a loved one, and a host of other dire issues that would normally take precedence in anyone's life), I decided my attention should be on the more calamatous issues than being a regulator for a small ego issue. And to me, it was exceptionally small, but probably not to them as they were used to every ego issue being stroked by someone in their circle.
   I called it "the princess and the pea syndome" at the time.  
   However, I did find myself in what little downtime I had, internally wrestling with the narcissist's issue. Sometimes it was all I could do to stop myself from being Ms. Regulator or Ms. Explainer for the umpteenth time, but I didn't: taking myself out of the other crises would not have been wise, responsible, reasonable, loving, or compassionate of me. 
   The inattention to the narcissist's ego made the narcissist have an ego-tantrum and breakdown. 
   When trying to explain, yet again, I was surprised that they took the Ms. Explainer role that I had always had, away. For the first time, they didn't want to hear explanations, so I was taken out of that job altogether, and the result is that I no longer had much to say (experienced as part relief, part injustice - it's possible to feel two things at once that are somewhat opposites). And frankly, I thought silencing me was pretty bad form, like only they get to talk? No, I wasn't having it, or the fantasies they were trying to re-invent around the issues between us. 
   Jerry Wise in the video also talks about how this kind of silence can feel "unsettling", and induce a "guilt-ridden state", however for me, it was just the opposite because I was exhausted from at least two years of non-stop crises. Rescuing the narcissist from some ego crisis, but "in silence" this time, was no longer my job as I saw it - or a job I knew how to do "in silence", or a job I wanted to do "in silence". Over time I felt their whole issue around their ego was bogus, a "power and control move" to get me to accept a lie, or force a lie on me, and I felt some shame that I ever thought "It was my job to fix an ego crash" and that "I had to do it, or else!" instead. No, I didn't need to be their rescuer. 
   I also had the realization that "they never rescued anyone else's ego; if anything they blasted people with too many criticisms."
   I think usually when someone is trying to twist the truth, and when they don't want to hear what you have to say, and where the issue is silly (like regulating an ego should come first over the large load of "real crises" that I was carrying) wipes out the guilt. If there was a potential for guilt, the load I was dealing with didn't allow it.
   If anything, I felt irritated that they wanted attention at a time like that. But narcissists and their fragile egos must come first for them as we all know!
   And it is this thought that I ruminated on in the silence they imposed on me. I was exhausted taking on the role, and it was screaming "unethical" besides. And why shouldn't they be accountable for things they've done; why is it always up to someone else, or a group of members, to make it seem that they aren't? "Oh, you're perfect! You would never do that, would you?" - it's like trying to fulfill a childhood fantasy they never did anything wrong. Why go on with this charade at all!? Why not just tell them they are accountable, period, and let the chips fall where they may? Why does absolutely everyone around them have to deny the truth, or a flaw, or a fault, to make life easier for them, make reality more palatable for them, make explanations and words more palatable, or try to dodge and sway on issues for fear of enduring more rages and the awful consequences of their retaliations and punishments? They have no problem pointing out everyone else's flaws, so they should be able to take what they dish out, right?
   Wrong (maybe, in the sense that it brings out more ire in them ... most psychologists who specialize in narcissistic abuse suggest that instead of pointing out these inconsistencies and hypocrisies, that pulling away more, putting even more distance between you, a lot more boundaries, and more silence is better than saying anything to them). Anyway, it was "a mistake", or "an experiment gone awry" more likely in the sense that the head narcissist put me through "a punishment" much more severe and a lot more immoral than I thought they would, and even the panic I felt of being out of role went away, as protecting myself from them took priority. 
   I think I also miscalculated what kind of narcissist they were (perhaps more dark triad than merely covert). 
   Then I learned of their smear campaigns. It made the separation much easier, as they were also vindictive with the craziest false stories I ever heard about myself. That produced disgust and alarm - it  further wiped out any feelings of guilt. 
   And it also wiped out hope. Before this series of events, I thought, with enough time, they'd come to their senses, see some of my perspectives, do some double-takes, the normal things that most people do.
   But when getting advice on this whole issue from a series of professionals, they said it would be a miracle if it ever happened. "The narcissistic mind is stuck in a pretty severe form of confirmation bias" they said, and the only thing they will accept is total agreement with them and their perspectives, and most people can't do that after awhile. Sometimes it's even dangerous to do so, like if they have a co-bully who wants to hurt you. That's why they leave a trail of broken relationships, with broken down communications, and why they always have to look for ever more narcissistic supply. And it's not that they are just stubborn with their confirmation biases, they actually think their perspectives are superior to yours and everyone else's no matter how far from reality they get. They have to believe that they are great and that you have to worship their perspectives and decisions, and if you doubt them, they can start to feel their reputation is at stake, and then they feel an enormous amount of rage. And rage is what gives them a temporary sense of power again, that they can affect people that way. Then the vindictiveness inside of them takes over producing another "power feeling". Then they'll try to punish you and scare you to death - another way they compensate for an ego crash.
   The fact that it happened in this way made it clear they were right, and made any potential hope disappear, and certainly any potential guilt I might have. 

   But generally, for most scapegoats, I think Jerry Wise is right, that you are indoctrinated to take on a role, and if you don't do it, you'll feel guilt and have to endure a pretty awful retaliation from them, and perhaps from their flying monkeys too. Part of the scapegoat role is about making sure that the narcissist is emotionally regulated at your expense and often it gets to be the truth's expense too. You are caught up in saving them from their shame-rage spiral fallout, and yourself from their vindictiveness if they don't get their way in being coddled and excused for any wrong-doing they commit. I just did not want them thinking that I was always to be counted on to fix every ego crash they endured when they got challenged by "accountability". 
   The audacious feelings they have at being held accountable for issues (when they actually are accountable) should be a child's full time anxiety ridden job to fix? Hell no!
   And having a child in your life does make that seem like an evil expectation. 
   It resembles "snowplow parenting" where the parent removes every obstacle a child faces, where even any discomfort of emotion is cleared away, except it is in reverse, where the child clears out every uncomfortable feeling, every challenge to their parent's ego, every blockade to their lust for more power and control, and with scapegoats, doing it while still trying to retain the truth, and what ever the narcissist can stand as the truth. It's a degrading job, not meant for any child. Maybe it should be called "snowplow childrening", although it is certainly parentifying, a very sick version of it. 
   The rest of what he says, I think, is relevant, that being without the role, and knowing the smear campaigns afterwards are just the same desperate falsehoods needed by them to make you appear accountable and themselves appear unaccountable. They apparently also have to add in more false stories than ever and make you into a more pronounced villain than before. Icky.
   And it is this feeling of "icky" that made me stop the role, and want to find out who I really was without their constant approvals and disapprovals, and judgements of others in general (in my experience, narcissists judge all kinds of people, and not in nice ways, throughout the day, or every minute of the day depending on what kind of narcissist they are). And that's hell to be around. 
   Their judgements tend to be so wrong too because with that many judgements, and that much negativity put into their judgements, most of them are bound to be wrong. It's not like they investigate, or want to listen to anyone, or want to understand anyone, or want to put themselves in other people's shoes, so it's "just opinions". And opinions don't mean much, or have much weight. They certainly aren't like facts and never will be. 
   We know how world tyrants come to conclusions about others. It's very much like that. 
   So once you are out of role, and not just a defender, or a person who "smooths things over", or "the reasonable un-prejudiced voice", or a fixer, or "an endless explainer", there is an identity crisis you face for sure. But I'd bet some of that unprejudiced voice that scapegoats have, the fixer, and defender of minority issues is just re-routed into "societal causes" you feel should be addressed. It also feels wonderful to get to know oneself on one's own terms and through other people besides narcissists, especially the creatives of the world, the empaths, the people who love all "god's creatures" including children and the care-takers of animals, the functional families who try to work out conflicts than to throw blame around and vilify the truth and a sole member, the self-aware, our partners if we are happily married, and the positive people with "authentic integrity" in our lives. 
   Now to the video:

Family No Contact: 8 Things Nobody Warns You About
by Jerry Wise,
(recommended by psychologist, Dr. Les Carter):

FOUND ON FACEBOOK:

Don't Narcissists Care About Hurting You?

 

"Mom Does Not Love. The Things Not Said"

Do narcissists care about hurting you? No. 

Is the reason why narcissists don't care about hurting you have to do with their lack of empathy? Yes.

Is the reason why narcissists dont care about hurting you have to do with their inability to form deep connections and sometimes prioritize your feelings over theirs? Yes.

Is the reason for narcissists' inability to have empathy for you have to do with atrophied parts of the brain, particularly the anterior insula and prefrontal cortex? Yes. 

When you feel distressed, do narcissists interpret your feelings as a nuisance for them? Yes (or a burden, an imposition, or inconvenience). What this link reveals is that your distress fails to trigger a comforting response from them, so you often feel alone with your feelings, that they aren't important to the narcissist. 

   What this link also reveals is that they can also respond with anger or invalidation to your pain. Common responses are also dismissal and minimization, blame and playing the victim so that your attention reverts to them. 

Do narcissists sometimes punish you for feeling hurt? Yes. Reasons why include feeling they are being criticized (narcissists are typically emotionally highly dysregulated, often with rage and indignation, when they feel they are being criticized resulting in narcissistic injury), a feeling that they are losing control of what you do, what you say and how you express yourself which can also trigger narcissistic rage in them, especially if they feel it is hurting their ego or challenging their superiority or ego-inflated narrative, and if you feel hurt because of something they did (because narcissists refuse to be held accountable for anything). 

What are types of punishments narcissists indulge in when you are feeling hurt by them? From the link: they escalate hurting you more as opposed to comforting you. They often stonewall or give you the silent treatment. They often gaslight and then blame-shift. They withold affection. They guilt-trip. They bait you to try to get you to react with anger or shame so that they can call you "the problem". 

What are types of punishments that malignant narcissists indulge in when you are feeling hurt by them? From the link: They often escalate abuse to regain dominance. They do the same kinds of things run-of-the-mill narcissists do, but they tend to be much more destructive, weaponizing everything they think they can, to get you to stop talking about being hurt by them. Escalating rage is common and dangerous in the hands of malignant narcissists.  

Do narcissists ever do double-takes later in terms of abusing you because you felt hurt by them? No. From the link: They are not capable of it because they do not make a point of being perceptive of your perspectives and why you might feel the way you do, plus they don't want to consider it because they find remorse and double takes as a weakness which would compromise their feelings of superiority. 

When you feel you can no longer tell a narcissist how you feel, working out resolutions is not possible. What that link reveals: meaningful dialogue about how you feel requires respect from the other person, and narcissists do not respect people who are hurt by them - they will not consider their own accountability, or any form of perspective-taking to understand where you are coming from. You will get blame-shifting, lack of empathy, and a competition where the narcissist will make it clear that they have to win at controlling you and controlling the narrative, and that your being hurt by them is trying to control them to feel guilt, and a "flawed perspective" of their intentions, the former being another "gaslighting attempt". 

Do narcissists understand that they hurt others, even egregiously? Yes, but they just don't care, and they refuse to react to the harm they cause in a way that is helpful or healing. From the link: they justify hurting you. They put up defenses right away, failing to recognize or verbalize any harm they have caused you. They minimize the impact. They often tell you that you are "over-reacting" or are "too sensitive" or that "your perceptions are flawed" (a type of gaslighting). They may rewrite the narrative and blame you for being hurt by their actions. Some narcissists pretend at feeling remorse to hoover you back or to get you from leaving, but most often they don't mean it. In fact, they refuse to feel any remorse if they feel they can get away with it, and instead of feeling remorse, they may escalate abusing you if they think you are trying to make them accountable. "You need to be punished", "the consequences are --" and naming something that will hurt you, threats to take something from you, would be signs, but that tends to be a malignant narcissist's or sociopath's way as run-of-the-mill narcissists are more careful not to label their punishments, threats, consequences, retaliations, abuses, rages, smear campaigns, discards and silent treatments as punishments, or desires to hurt you, so that they can deny they punished you or tried to hurt you at all if they want you back in the future - it is the ultimate gaslighting and hoovering trick: "Why would you ever think I'd want to punish you or hurt you!? Who do you think I am? You must be crazy to think that!"
   They have little to no capacity to respond in a healthy manner to you being hurt by them, and eventually discussing how they treat you becomes unproductive, if not dangerous for you.  What that link reveals: you are never likely to get an apology and any abuse, punishment or retaliation that you are receiving as it relates to them hurting you is likely to escalate. 

How do covert vulnerable narcissists act when you tell them they hurt you? What this link reveals: Covert vulnerable narcissists overreact to criticism to the point where even mild constructive feedback is perceived as a "humiliating, ego-shattering attack". They can also perceive a criticism as an "absolute rejection." However, most people don't know this because narcissists feel so free to criticize others. 
   How they deal with criticism is different from the way grandiose overt narcissists operate. So it becomes impossible to talk to covert vulnerable narcissists about the slightest hurt or issue you've received from them without severe consequences. Some of those consequences include the DARVO tactic, passive aggressive consequences like the silent treatment, deliberately feigning forgetfulness that it's your birthday or other holiday event, or deliberately slacking on promises they made to you, feigned helplessness, feigned victimhood to avoid accountability, guilt-tripping, trying to make you totally responsible for their moods, the attacks they perpetrate, and their well-being.
   Covert vulnerable narcissists operate from a victim mentality, and the more covert narcissists hurt you, the more they play the victim. This manipulation is to get you serving them, just as it is with all narcissists.
   The manipulation tends to work remarkably well, especially since most people are likely to get into "a rescue mode" and are empathetic. However, it does not work long term, especially as you begin to realize they use the victim card any time you have an issue with their behavior. It becomes more like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" (seeing the manipulation behind claiming they are a victim). 
   However, they actually really do feel victimized in the moment when you have trouble with their behavior or put boundaries in place, however if they are highly critical of others, they don't believe they are doing any damage to the other person - or they believe it is justified, a pre-emptive self protection, or a justified retaliation for any resistance you may have to their control. 
   With malignant vulnerable narcissism, there tends to be a marked bully-victim cycle as well as a more sudden shift from "nice" to "punishing", from calm to blinding rage, more sadistic consequences for the slightest sense that you may be criticizing them or putting up a boundary, quite a bit more projection (blaming you for all of the sins they commit), and since many of them are violent, they can go from being violent towards you to victim stances ("Why don't you help me?", "Why don't you care about me?"). Malignant vulnerable narcissists can be dangerous.
   It can be hard to tell the difference between vulnerable narcissism from malignant vulnerable narcissism because they both act covertly, but the differences are spelled out HERE. The main way to tell the difference is that there is an element of cruelty, sadism and a definite punishing retaliatory mindset to the malignant type. At any rate, it can be exhausting trying to figure out what type they are without counseling or without researching the different types. If you feel they are trying to punish you or destroy you in some way (career, financially, self esteem, in belonging to a common family or friendship group, or resorting to crimes to hurt you), you are probably dealing with the malignant type (and no, malignant narcissists do not, and cannot change - the chances for "genuine" change are extremely, extremely  low - if they attend therapy, they are likely to revert back to the way they were before with new tools for more destructive behavior).
   Therefore, talking to any form of covert narcissist about anything interpersonal does not make sense, and especially talking about how you feel, or how they have hurt you. We do make mistakes sometimes because we don't always know we are talking to narcissists, but if you get a strong reaction and a victim mentality, you can usually make a bet it is due to covert vulnerable narcissism or malignant vulnerable narcissism, and decide how you will discuss things going forward. 

If a narcissist cannot hear you or treat you with respect after hurting you, who do you talk to? What the link reveals: Mental health practitioners, specialized support groups, trusted friends or family members. 

Is the only thing that keeps narcissists from hurting you more is their image and reputation? Yes, but it is not the only thing that holds them back. What that link reveals: Image and reputation management often come first and are part of every narcissist's obsession, but they also don't like losing the steady stream of narcissistic supply and the role you supply. If they hurt you too much, they realize they will lose you and the control of what you say and reveal about them, and since they are terrified of shame and the exposure of their abusive rageful side, they often opt to not go too far into hurting you. For some narcissists, fear of legal and financial repurcussions can also be part of the picture. 
   Having hesitations about hurting you is not part of a sociopath's make up however, so if they deeply and swiftly escalate hurting you, they are likely to have some Antipersonality Disorder traits. And note: narcissists can go sociopathic, especially if they are deeply enabled by others. One way you tell if you are dealing with a malignant narcissist (a person with both narcissistic and socopathic traits) is that they get narcissistic supply out of raging, frightening, and threatening you, and they tend to show sadism in either speech or deeds. They also let you know they hate you and that you deserve the worst treatment if you do not follow their orders. 
   In other words, be careful, as not all people who show the major traits of narcissism hold back on hurting you, especially if they feel their reputation, as well as the control and domination they have over you, is at stake. 

Narcissists don't care if they hurt their children either, right? Right. What that link reveals:
   Some of the hurt they cause to their children is intentional, and some of it is unintentional. The unintentional hurt they cause comes from being unempathetic, extremely self centered, and egocentric.
   Affection is given as a reward for compliance, and not for who the child is.
   Children feel they are only loved when they perform duties for their narcissistic parent.
   Narcissists will still balk at accountability when their child is hurt, and the narcissistic parent will still alter reality (gaslight their child), blame-shift, mock or rage at the child for being hurt.
   This often means that a child's safety, emotional needs and a child's milestones and accomplishments are often ignored unless the parent can use the milestones and accomplishments to make themselves look good and infallible to others.
   The consequence for a child being parented by a narcissist is that they often feel their feelings and emotions are invisible to their parent, and that they must sacrifice these parts of themselves to serve to their parent. What this link reveals: children often try hard to suppress their emotions and authentic selves, or adopt a "false self" to feel safe with their parent. Note: adopting a false self or mirroring the narcissist's opinions, abuse tactics, ways of relating, and prejudices can create narcissism in the child.
   Children also often adopt hypervigilence and fawning to keep safe.
   They also often feel trauma bonded with their parent too.
   Chronic attempts to reach the parent's perfection standards in deeds and emotions causes deep anxiety, and if they find they can never please their parent, they can develop CPTSD. Once a child develops CPTSD, suppressing emotional expression effects the nervous system and can produce either dysregulated emotions ("emotional storms"), living with emotions alone, dissociation, or emotional numbing (unreactive). 

How about narcissistic leaders of nations? Do they care if they hurt their own populace and the populations of other nations? Not really. What that link reveals: They look at it as "a necessary byproduct or collateral damage in the pursuit of their personal goals." 

How about if you tell a narcissist that it won't make your relationship better to punish you? Will they think about what you said? No. What that link reveals: It will rarely lead to changed behavior or self reflection. They typically believe you need to do the self reflecting, and change your behavior because they look at themselves as "the superior" in most relationships (i.e. the one who controls, dominates, is in charge of telling you what to do, and defining what the relationship is and what they determine are your responsibilities towards them, and any deviation from that is looked upon by them as "your moments of insanity or incompetence" or insubordination).
   They are not out to build a healthy relationship. They are out to control you, and if you tell them that they will make the relationship worse by punishing you, and the trust you have in them disappear, they will use what they know about you in this regard to inflict more pain. 

If you ask the narcissist kindly not to punish you or hurt you, what do they usually do? What that link reveals: they rarely stop the behavior. Instead they view your request as a vulnerability and will generally use DARVO and gaslighting tactics, plus increase the punishments (they look at the request as a boundary you are trying to set with them, and it can lead to narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury, as they feel entitled to control you - as in the scene above, the superiority complex they have assumes that they have a right to control you and dominate your decisions, even about personal boundaries).
   Obviously this can be a major issue for us if they are a malignant narcissist who is a domestic violence offender, a criminal narcissist, a paranoid narcissist who believes everyone is out to either compete with them or hurt them, and narcissists in public offices. 

What do narcissists think they get or achieve when they hurt other people? What that link reveals: They hurt other people to regain or maintain control of you, and to restore their self esteem.
   However, psychologists Dr. Ramani Durvasula and Dr. Les Carter have remarked in their videos that they hurt you to make themselves feel they are better than you, that by making you feel worse, they feel better in comparison. Narcissists are always in some sort of competitive frame of mind, so if they feel better than you do, even if they had a hand in making you feel worse, they feel they have won a "happiness competition". This is also referred to in psychology circles as a "zero sum game". 

Do narcissists ever put in the effort to stop hurting others? It is extremely rare, so no, on the whole they do not. What that link reveals: If they try, it's never really a genuine and sustained effort. They have litlle motivation to change because of their defense mechanisms, lack of emotional empathy, and because they are often deeply enabled by people around them. They also believe they will always get their own way, and that they have the upper hand in most situations. 

Does a narcissist hurt a lot of people during their life? Yes. What that link reveals in terms of who gets hurt the most: romantic partners and spouses, their children, their siblings, and their co-workers. Most narcissists know they cause pain and distress to others, but their makeup is such that they almost always prioritize their own satisfactions and desires over the well-being of others. 

Is it wise to try to leave narcissists who punish you for feeling hurt by them? Yes. What that link reveals: Even though narcissists cannot communicate about issues regarding their hurting or abusing others without resorting to negative reactions like rage and punishing (narcissists know they hurt others, but they aren't in the habit of ever admitting it), leaving narcissists over issues like this can present dangers.
   Initiating a split takes careful planning (I usually suggest domestic violence services to assess the dangers of the particlar person you are trying to leave, like whether they are the malignant brand, and the types of things you should take with you when you leave, as every person's situation is different). Narcissists can't even admit to themselves that they drove you away because you were continually hurt by them, instead resorting to smear campaigns like: "She left because she's crazy and a constant basket case", or "He left because he's selfish and never cared how I felt" (which is a type of DARVO), or "She left because I got tired of listening to her problems". They will never recognize the pain they caused you verbally, but if you return, they will punish you for leaving over the pain you felt (image preservation takes precedence). In other words, they thought you should "shut up and endure the pain without complaint". 

How about when it comes to narcissists feeling pain over something you did? Do they expect you to care about causing them pain when they don't care about causing you pain? Quote from Google AI: "Yes, narcissists expect you to care about their pain while ignoring yours."  Another quote from the same article: "They often demand that you prioritize their feelings, validate their struggles, and comfort their distress while giving up your own." - says it all.

After I came across the answer to the last question, I personally am done with this section, but you are free to pursue your own questions.

SOME FURTHER REPERCUSSIONS OF
NARCISSISTS NOT CARING IF THEY HURT OTHERS
APART TO WHAT IT DOES TO THEIR REPUTATION
AND THEIR ABILITY TO OBTAIN POSITIVE FORMS OF
NARCISSISTIC SUPPLY

What I have written in the previous section mainly has to do with narcisists in relationships with spouses, partners, and children, but when we take this into other types of human-to-human contact, it presents a serious problem. For instance:

* Let us say that a narcissistic person causes a serious car accident. They may not care enough about the occupants of the other car enough to call an ambulance. They may instead, be focused on trying to make the accident appear to law enforcement to be the occupants of the other car at fault entirely.  

* Another situation: A narcissist with sociopathic traits (a malignant narcissist) rises to power and starts an invasion of a neighboring country. Since he does not care about hurting other people, and since with the sociopathic traits he doesn't particularly care what it does to his reputation either, he commits war crimes by killing civilians, even children and babies. 
   However, he does care a great deal if people want to hurt him, so he kills people who he fantasizes want to kill him.
   He has a bunker built that he and his comrades can hide in. Eventually, the war ends because there are too many casualties. The soldiers either defect to the other side or march home despite what some of their commanders tell them to do. In fact, even the commanders start marching home at some point, refusing to fight for the malignant narcissist. 
   Most of the public wants the malignant narcissist out of power. When he is caught in his bunker, he acts like a victim and cries for mercy. 

* Another manifestation: A narcissistic person in the heat of an argument kills his mate in a rage. He didn't mean to kill her. He just wanted to hurt her (and frankly, he went too far in hurting her because his narcissism means he doesn't care if he hurts her). 
   He feels persecuted when a judge holds him accountable. 

Narcissists aren't just bad for their mates and families. They can be parasitic in society. 

FURTHER READING:

Do Narcissists Feel Guilty About Abusing Loved Ones?

It can be hard for people to realize how shallow narcissistic love is. - by Elinor Greenberg for Psychology Today

3 Phrases Narcissistic Partners Use During Conflicts

Words that let them withhold empathy, inflict guilt, and shift blame. - by Erin Leonard, Ph.D., for Psychology Today

SOME VIDEOS ON THIS TOPIC:

Do narcissists know they hurt you? - by psychologist, Dr. Ramani (You Tube)

Proof narcissists KNOW their behavior is unacceptable - by psychologist, Dr. Ramani (You Tube)

Unbound: Why Narcissists Need to Hurt You - by psychologist, Les Carter for Surviving Narcissism (You Tube)

The next two videos are from a Facebook public account (called "No More Narcissists"), and require you to sign into Facebook to see them, but they explain a lot of the issues you will encounter succinctly: 

4 Reasons Why Narcissists Feel Nothing After Hurting You

5 Insane Behaviors That Instantly Identify a Narcissist

FOUND ON FACEBOOK:

Family Obligation and the Scapegoat. Do You Owe Your Narcissistic Family Anything?

In this post, I ask some questions, link to articles, have a further reading section plus a couple of articles from Google at the bottom of the page. 

Anyway, do you feel you are, or might be, the family scapegoat, and do your family members feel that you owe them a lot? 

If you want to check out if you were the scapegoat of your family you can always get the book, Rejected, Blamed and Shamed by Rebecca C. Mandeville. Does the questionairre in the book describe you? 

If you don't want the book, you can always go to Laura K. Connell's site to decipher if you can relate to the 9 signs of scapegoating. 

Or do you score high on the ACEs test? - that test is on-line, and that test can give you a sense of how you were treated as a child. 

If you were scapegoated by a parent, parents, a step parent, or a sibling (and your parent took your sibling's side) repeatedly, your family may feel that you owe them something, or even a lot more than you can realistically give them, or want to give them, but what, if anything, do you really owe them?

And have you tried to fulfill some of the obligations they thought were owed to them in the past? Did you still feel hurt, exhausted, and as though nothing was enough? 

Being scapegoated is a situation where your family has decided to blame you for what ever dysfunctions exist in the family. Most scapegoating families accuse you of being "crazy", or mentally ill, or "mentally inept", or not "doing things right" repeatedly, and according to them, that makes you the problem for anything and everything that goes wrong in the family. 

Most scapegoating families reject you in one way or another too, whether that means silencing you (and what you went through), invalidating you (and what you went through), giving you the silent treatment, neglecting you, chronic lack of attention while growing up, ignoring you and your needs, showing you a lot of contempt or showing you that they favor your siblings, discarding you or outright rejecting you, hurting you on purpose (whether that is emotionally, psychologically, verbally or physically ... another link on emotional, psychological and verbal abuse and ... another link on physical abuse), ignoring you or raging at you any time you want to compromise or find a solution which satisfies all parties, or when you become withdrawn, sad or emotional. 

Scapegoating families also try to isolate their scapegoats. By calling you crazy, inept, or mentally challenged, they press other members not to listen to you, or engage with you (because if they were to listen to you, you might talk about all of the rejections you've experienced, as in the above paragraph). They want other people to treat you differently too, and if they can't get those family members and friends blaming and shaming you too, they try to convince them why it is necessary. 

By scapegoating you, they get to go around feeling absolved of any faults, short-comings, short-sightedness, fairness, kindness, investigative inclinations, self-blame, psychological issues they have, toxic actions they take, abuses they make towards you and others, thinking beyond the usual "you are at fault" monologue they have always adopted and given you, or frankly, any kind accountability at all.

In my opinion, that's enough service for a lifetime, and if it was on-going and severe, several lifetimes. 

If you feel obligated or indebted to them, perhaps consider they are highly likely to keep scapegoating you. 

Here are also some links as to why you don't owe them anything:

How to recover from being the family scapegoat - by Laura K. Connell (her own website)

Signs of toxic people and how to deal with them - by Laura K. Connell (her own website)

The Hidden Trauma of Neglect in the Narcissistic Family.
Neglect is the most common form of abuse. - by Julie Hall, reviewed by Gary Drevitch for Psychology Today

The Narcissist's 5 Parenting Rules
Narcissistic parents often share common behaviors. - by Jamie Cannon, MS, reviewed by 
Jessica Schrader for Psychology Today

Narcissistic Parents: Everyday Things They Twist Into Guilt Trips - by Jerry Wise, MA, MS, CLC (You Tube)

Narcissistic Parents: The Most Personal Choices You Should Never Debate With Them - by Jerry Wise, MA, MS, CLC (You Tube)

Why Scapegoat Survivors Might Want to Question the “Angel” on Their Shoulders - by psychotherapist, Jay Reid (You Tube)

Ungrateful Children: Overcoming The Debt Your Parents Believe You Owe Them
Understanding and dealing with the false sense of duty - by Anastasia Summersault for Medium

In Panic, We Human Sacrifice, Scapegoat - by Professor Sam Vaknin (note: Professor Sam Vaknin was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, so he talks with the perspective of someone who has the disorder, as well as citing research on the disorder) (You Tube)

Mimetic Scapegoating in Narcissistic Households (Mimetic Desire, Violence) - by Professor Sam Vaknin (see above) (You Tube)

You don't owe your narcissistic parents! - by Jerry Wise, MA, MS, CLC (You Tube)

Narcissistic parents tend to treat their children as if they owe them - Mental Healness (You Tube)

If you are a parent and want to make up with your child, you can go to my post HERE where I talk about actions that may work. 

"Why do narcissistic parents feel children owe them?": Google AI (in blue):
   Narcissistic parents feel their children owe them lifelong obedience, attention, and care because they view parenting as a transactional investment rather than an unconditional responsibility. They fundamentally believe the child exists to serve their ego, validate their self-worth, and fulfill unachieved personal ambitions.
   The expectation of this "payback" stems from a few core psychological dynamics:
   * The "Gift of Life" Fallacy: Narcissistic parents often use the mere fact of bringing a child into the world as an ultimate, unpayable debt. They use this to demand unending gratitude, disregarding that the child did not ask to be born and that parents are legally and morally obligated to provide care.
   * Transactional Affection: In their minds, every basic need met—such as food, shelter, or clothing—is framed as an extraordinary sacrifice rather than a baseline duty. They use this "generosity" as leverage to induce guilt and demand subservience.
   * Narcissistic Supply: Narcissists require constant external validation to maintain their fragile self-esteem. They view their children as captive audiences and extensions of themselves. When a child asserts independence, the parent feels robbed of this required attention and views it as an act of betrayal.
   * Projection of Regret: These parents often view their children as do-overs for their own missed opportunities. When a child pursues their own path, the parent subconsciously projects their own feelings of loss and expects the child to forfeit their freedom to make up for the parent's regrets.
   Understanding these dynamics can help in recognizing that the expectation of indebtedness is a manipulation tactic meant to retain control. For resources and support regarding this type of family dynamic, you can explore the Out of the FOG  network or find peer support on communities like the Reddit Raised by Narcissists forum.

"Owing narcissistic parents": Google AI (excerpt, partial, in blue):
   Children do not owe narcissistic parents anything for raising them. You did not consent to be born, and providing basic necessities like food, housing, and schooling is a parent's legal and moral obligation, not a favor.
   Narcissistic parents manipulate this dynamic to create artificial, lifelong debt.
   Understanding the dynamics of this, and how to unburden yourself from the guilt, involves several key areas:
   * The "Debt" Trap: Narcissistic parents often weaponize the sacrifices they made to keep you subservient.
   * Basic Needs vs. Gifts: Providing a roof over your head and food to eat are minimum legal requirements to avoid charges of child neglect. These are not "gifts" you are required to pay back.
   * Control Tactics: They often use guilt, obligation, and emotional enmeshment to maintain their "narcissistic supply," acting as if your mere existence is a service they provided.
   What You Actually "Owe" Them
   * In a healthy, functional relationship, love and respect are freely given and earned, not extorted. With narcissistic parents, your primary responsibility is to your own health and well-being. You do not owe them obedience, unlimited access to your life, or the sacrifice of your own happiness.

"Do you owe a family anything if you were scapegoated by them?" Google AI (excerpt, partial, in blue):
   You do not owe your family anything. When you are scapegoated, you are subjected to emotional abuse and unfair blame to protect the family's dysfunction. You have no moral or ethical obligation to maintain contact, provide support, or endure further harm from people who mistreat you.
   Navigating the emotional aftermath of family scapegoating requires prioritizing your own well-being. Several factors can help you process your situation:
   * Unconditional Obligation is a Myth: Children do not owe their parents or family members anything just for being raised or provided with basic necessities. Healthy family dynamics are built on mutual respect, safety, and love—not on a transactional debt for taking care of you.
   * No Contact is a Valid Choice: Stepping away, also known as going "no contact," is a completely valid and often necessary tool to heal from chronic scapegoating. You are allowed to protect your mental health by removing yourself from toxic or abusive environments.

FOUND ON FACEBOOK

A Domestic Violence Situation and Tale - from a well known Canadian Musician.

Hi everyone. Today I thought I'd share a video by J.P. Cormier. J.P. Cormier is a traveling musician from Canada and I've seen him in concert six times. Two of those times were with another musician by the name of Dave Gunning. You can catch a little of their music from a video on You Tube (Place: Celtic Colours International Festival. Song: Kate O’ The Gowrie. Arrangement: Dave Gunning and J.P. Cormier. Year: 2019).   

J.P. Cormier is a fantastic guitar player, and has admirable arrangements, songwriting skills, and does You Tube videos reviewing guitars, teaching various styles of playing, interviews and jam sessions with other musicians, and anything else he can think of. He's a highly acclaimed and well known musician in Canada. He is not as well-known in the USA, but frequently crosses the border to perform. 

Anyway, my husband, who also plays the guitar and is a multi-instrumentalist, likes to watch J.P.'s videos from time to time. And sometimes we watch them together. And was he surprised to come across a video from four years ago where J.P. Cormier discusses domestic violence and child abuse!

He had me sit down and watch it.  

So I thought I'd share that video with all of you too.

I appreciate J.P.'s candor and ability to talk about this subject without fear. I have a few comments following the video. 

See it here directly on You Tube:
"A Life in Music Ep. 69 - Showdown at the FU Corral"
or below:

Some of my comments:

People who commit domestic violence "often make themselves appear to be victimized by the partner they are actually abusing". - that quote and link is from Google AI. 

Victims of domestic violence can minimize the threat to themselves. - that link goes to DomesticShelters.org. 

Domestic violence victims can feel guilty for seeing their partner in jail. - that link also goes to DomesticShelters.org 

There are reasons why so few abusers change:

It is not very likely they will change - check this article from the National Abuse Hotline

Can Abusers Change? 5 Almost Impossible Obstacles Explained - by The Mend Project
- this article explains why:
* Perpetrators are in relationships to control the other person.  
* There is entitlement and double standards (i.e. "What's okay for me to do, isn't okay for you to do.")
* Family System bias (I usually call this "family prejudice", whether it be about choice of spouse, political leanings, weight, race, sex of person such as misogyny, disabilities, cultural leanings - usually there is something they've learned to be prejudiced about from their family of origin that is often multi-generational)
* Image control (undermining others to uphold status) - other articles refer to this as "efforts to achieve grandiosity at others' expense". 
* Low emotional IQ: "disinterest in others' emotions, resulting in controlling behaviors, lack of empathy, and defensiveness." - quote from the article. However, low emotional IQ can also be the result of brain chemistry in some perpetrators. 

My personal view on why narcissists tend not to change is all of these things, but I'll also add that when a person is mainly out to control others, dominate others and have power over others, they are not thinking about "how to treat others better", or "how to make up with others so that the relationship can grow and thrive", or even about "how to get along with others better". In other words, they are going after people and relationships for a totally different reason than the rest of us are. 

I also think part of the problem is that society is machine, utility, tool and toy oriented. We "use things" constantly to "make our lives easier and better". Somewhere in a budding abuser's brain, he or she got the idea that they can use people in the same way as they use a toy, a utility, a tool or a machine. If they see that it will work to a greater rather than lesser extent, they keep using people. 

People who use people to make their lives easier and better aren't looking at this "machine-person" or "toy-person", and trying to decipher its feelings. They are either thinking, "This toy or machine is working" or "not working". The person is either a useful toy or machine, or not a useful one.

They are either going to fix the toy-person or machine-person that works best for them, or in a way that "puts them back together the way they used to be." If they feel that the machine-person or toy-person will no longer work in the way they want it to again, or in the way that it used to, they have to make another choice. In fact, they are forced to make another choice.

And how do people treat toys and machines when they don't work the way want them to, or they used to, or are "supposed to"? Maybe they don't understand the mechanisms that make this toy or machine work or rebel. Someone who is rage-driven, control-driven and antagonistically driven as many perpetrators tend to be usually either gets mad at the machine or toy and stomps all over it, or throws it away in a fit of anger. And so: "Welcome to the world of domestic violence!" and for people in power who act like this, "Welcome to dictatorship!" too. 

Some questions/ruminations I have ... 

J.P. talks about pulling back from playing music performances with his wife (now ex), and playing with "guys" instead. "Pulling back" could have meant she was no longer making money, or that the music partnership was dissolving and that she didn't know what to do, or how to resolve it, or how to react, or what to do with her own music career. Maybe she couldn't think, and just found that her anger was building.

"Pulling back" might also mean, to some women, "fear of being abandoned, of marriage failure, of marriage dissolution, of marital money being only controlled by him, of marital harmony only controlled by him, of marital status only being controlled by him".

For someone who might be controlling, having the partner in control instead might have been interpreted as "deeply threatening", "deeply unnerving", "deeply provoking", or "of feeling threatened". Even if it is a "phantom threat", or a "possible threat", or a "threat of possibilities" of more withdrawal, an insecure person might lash out? Might turn a "phantom threat" into a "real threat" in her own mind?

Is it possible that this was the main impetus for "the scenes" in the room where he was sleeping? 

Granted, it's hard to figure out as he never really knew either. I'm making a few hypotheses based on what I know about "perpetrator behaviors", and the fact that these behaviors are often based on "control" of another person, or feeling "out of control" or "not controlling enough" when it comes to other people. 

Also, he was allegedly a victim of child abuse. And as a child, he learned to be afraid, and to walk away, as he saw that nothing was to be gained by violence, or sticking around to fight back. "Staying, getting mad, and fighting back can kill a person" because the body is fragile, and you can't be sure you are "saving someone" when you are fighting them at the same time, even in self defense.

He also says that guns and knives were pointed at him when he was a child. He admits in the video that his mind was filled with panic and fear, which was, perhaps, why his first instinct was to "get safe" by locking the door on his wife when she was trying to get back in the room. 

It sounds like his mind went wild, possibly envisioning guns and knives and other weapons pointed at him, similar to what he went through in childhood. 

Childhood memories and childhood trauma can have a big impact on how we react when we are adults - having guns and knives pointed at you, and being a victim of violence as a child, can impact the way you deal with scenes that might seem similar in adulthood. 

Anyway, those are some of my own thoughts on the matter ... 

Here are some more links:

Am I likely to be abused no matter what, i.e. be a victim of domestic violence again? Abuse escalates; it's very rare for it to de-escalate, whether that's physical abuse or emotional abuse or both. In other words, it tends increase in danger and in introduction to other types of abuses, not decrease.

Forgiving abusers is often not suggested (from Google AI):

Forgiving abusers is not required for healing and is often not suggested, as it can hinder recovery by enabling continued abuse, reducing necessary consequences for the abuser, and forcing premature closure. Trauma recovery focuses on the survivor’s safety and needs, making forgiveness a personal choice rather than a necessity, say Psychology Today. 

Key reasons why forgiving an abuser is often not recommended include:

* Risk of Further Abuse: Premature or forced forgiveness can lead to safety risks, enabling continued abuse.

* Lack of Accountability: Forgiving too quickly, especially without genuine repentance from the abuser, can remove necessary consequences for their actions.

* Hindering Healing: It may interrupt the necessary process of dealing with emotions like anger and grief, acting as a form of self-betrayal, notes YouTube.

* Not an Obligation: Survivors are not obligated to forgive to heal, and doing so should not be seen as a mandatory step in therapy.

The Truth About Forgiving Abuse With Valerie Hudson

Have you been told to forgive an emotionally abusive husband? Here's what you need to know. - by Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast

Going back to abusers and living in a cycle of constant reconciliations after abuse are often not suggested by therapists. 

Do a lot of adult children who have been abused or assalted during childhood end up being the victim of domestic violence or domestic abuse in adulthood? Yes. Abuse was normalized in the childhood home, so victims of child abuse tend to stay in relationships that are abusive in adulthood longer than most people do. 

Do a lot of adult children of child abuse end up in the arts? Yes. What the Google AI article reveals (partial):
Yes, research and anecdotal evidence suggest a significant link between childhood adversity—including abuse, neglect, and family dysfunction—and a higher likelihood of individuals pursuing careers in the arts. Studies indicate that traumatic childhoods can drive individuals to channel their pain into intense creativity, using art as a vehicle for emotional expression, recovery, and control.

What is Battered Wife Syndrome? (however this can manifest in men too). 

Anyway, I feel bad about what happened to him. It doesn't surprise me that he turned to the guitar and to performing considering all of what he endured. There are things in life that relieve trauma better than others, and the rhythms, modes of practice and time alone have something in common with trauma therapies. Even the most common therapy, EMDR, has a very rhythmic element to it. I think this is why, in part, people who have gone through abuse turn to arts professions. Some of it also has to do with acceptance based on competence, and even "perfectionism". And some of it has to do with social elements like being part of a tribe of other people in the arts. 

I find a lot of former victims are "nature bugs" too: hikers, photographers of nature, animal caretakers, people who enjoy being outdoors more than indoors, world or country travelers, traveling salesmen, farmers who enjoy farming the old way with horses, people who work in wildlife professions, etc. Again, there are elements of this that may have some resemblence to trauma therapy too. 

At some point I will share some of my findings about this phenomenon. I'm probably not going to be able to bring up individual names, but there is no harm in bringing up the subject in ways that may be really helpful to others. 

Thank you, J.P. for being so open. May it help others.