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WHAT IS NEWEST ON THIS BLOG?
October 20 New Post: When Narcissists Pit Children Against Each Other to Win Their Affection, This is What It is Largely About
September 26 New Post: Dealing with Overwhelming Emotions From Narcissistic Abuse, an Introduction. Comes With a Discussion on Dysregulated Emotions.
August 21 New Post: Things Narcissists Get Wrong About Punishing Their Scapegoat Adult Children. Includes Some Discussion on Medical and Emotional Issues in Both.
August 11 New Post: If people don't want to hear what you have to say, it is normal for you to not want to hear what they have to say either. Comes with a discussion on narcissism
July 30 New Post: Is It Possible that Gen Z and Millennials Having to Work 2 - 3 Jobs Is Contributing to the Nationwide Trend of Estrangement With Parents in the USA?
July 21 New Post: Don't Narcissists Care About Hurting You?
July 14 (edited on 10/18/26) New Post: Reviews of "Narcissistic Rehab", "Narcissistic Detox" and "No More Narcissists" on Facebook
June 23 New Post: How I Came to Forgive the Narcissists in My Life (and it may not be what you think)
June 6 New Post: Why Do Sycophants Feel They Need to Follow Someone Who is So Unethical, Power Hungry, Cruel and Narcissistic? Comes with Personal Stories and a Deep Dive Into the Subject.
May 18 New Post: Family Obligation and the Scapegoat. Do You Owe Your Narcissistic Family Anything?
April 26 New Post: An Update: New Studies on Scapegoats of Narcissistic Families, Wills and Narcissistic Parents, Dissociation, and Some Other Topics of Note
April 6 New Post: Why Scapegoats of Narcissistic Families Are Unlikely To Turn Into Sycophants. Part II.
March 29 New Post: A Domestic Violence Situation and Tale - from a well known Canadian Musician.
March 9 New Post: Why Scapegoats of Narcissistic Families Find It Impossible to Turn Themselves Into Sycophants. Comes with a Discussion on Largely Involuntary Independent Thinking, C-PTSD and Healing.
PERTINENT POST: ** Hurting or Punishing Others to Teach Them a Lesson - Does it Work?
PETITION: the first petition I have seen of its kind: Protection for Victims of Narcissistic Sociopath Abuse (such as the laws the UK has, and is being proposed for the USA): story here and here or sign the actual petition here
Note: After seeing my images on social media unattributed, I find it necessary to post some rules about sharing my images
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Saturday, May 9, 2020

Why are abusers, narcissists and sociopaths rejecting, violent and offended by facial expressions, glances and your tone of voice


As with most of my blog posts, I cite sources and other reading material below. The first part of this reading section is devoted to research articles by professionals. I have also included articles here and in the false narratives post as to why facial expressions are not a reliable indicator as to what someone else is feeling and thinking.

I am surprised this topic isn't brought up more often because I see wave after wave of battered women who were beaten up badly for just glancing at someone of the opposite sex, most of these glances only lasting a second. It is an incredible phenomenon, something most of the population does not have to experience, or to worry about, to be concerned about, to get a complex about, or to work around, so why is an innocent glance so objectionable to men who beat up women?

Then there are parent figures who reject or terrorize children (including grown children) for a look  on their face, whether it is a smirk, a purse of the lips, a grimace, a look of horror, a look of happiness, a look of sadness, rolling eyes ... again it can be anything. Someone very close to me was rejected by her mother for life for a look on her face (no kidding!), and this, and battered women who I have seen and met, were the reasons I decided to cover this topic. It is a common topic in domestic violence. I decided to do some research and think about why this is so huge in the minds of perpetrators of domestic violence and abuse and what it does to the recipients of abuse.

Any domestic violence counselor will tell you that they see this again and again, and that it is common among abusers, particularly people with psychopathic, dark triad and dark tetrad traits - extremely indicative of personality disorders. So this practice is pretty exclusive to them. In other words, it is very uncommon for the rest of us. The one notable exception is that people who are inebriated (high on alcohol and some drugs) can look at facial expressions as being hostile too when they are not. Also alcoholism can co-occur with narcissism and psychopathy. For the intents of this post, I am keeping the topic on personality disorders (mainly Cluster B) and address alcoholism and an impaired ability to judge the intentions of others in another post.

People with personality disorders associated with psychopathy, dark triad and dark tetrad tend to see quite a bit more hostility in a wide range of facial expressions than the rest of us. Professional articles (research) about this are cited below.

On top of it all, facial expressions that they view as hostile, especially in close personal relationships,  often arouse them to be violent and/or vindictive, retaliatory and punishing. If they have Machiavellian traits which a high percentage do, they also become obsessed with punishing; in other words it occupies their thoughts to the point where it interferes with other matters in their lives. And to make matters worse for their victims, perpetrators often spend a great deal of time at planning out new punishments, including punishments where they think they won't be detected, where they think they can dodge law enforcement, where they think they can successfully switch culpability on to their victims (why it is important NOT to meet them in private).

I will be covering typical ways they plan out punishments in another post.

In my own personal life, I have also been the target of being punished over a facial expression (it happened in my fifties, and I found out quickly after this occurrence that age is not a factor when it comes to being victimized). In fact, when people ask me why I haven't seen so-and-so, I say "I am being punished for a look on my face" (and ... I have proof of this if they don't quite believe me, and also witnesses for the day that it allegedly occurred: no unusual, hostile, bored, disapproving facial expressions that would cause so much unmitigated rage and sadism; i.e. off-the-charts emotional dysregulation ... in fact, we were all well under the impression that we were having a pleasant respectful conversation, not a hostile one in the least).

People who have looked at his e-mails to me are either horrified that someone would actually do that, say that and think that, or they laugh at the absurdity of being punished over a facial expression.

Gasping in shock or saying "That's so jacked up!" is the most common response. However, some people who actually know him aren't terribly surprised. He has had a reputation for being a brute and tyrant.

In the beginning, most people who go through punishments over facial expressions want to talk to the person to iron out the problem. I was no exception.

Why? Because it is confusing most of all. You want to know what the facial expression is to them, why they think a punishment is reasonable, what they think they will gain from the punishment, trying to clear up misunderstandings ...

The counselors I talked to were dead set against it. "Don't do it! People who do this are dangerous and twisted! This isn't about you, or a misunderstanding. It is about sadism and an anger management problem in them, period." And it was explained to me that I would not find a real explanation anyway. "Talking to a person who acts like this is an invitation to damage you, never to clear things up and be reasonable. It doesn't matter how educated they are. We see this from the working poor to the highly educated, wealthy and successful."

Typically if you do show up at their house or apartment they usually put you through a lengthy blaming-shaming session, where they will talk about how much they did for you, how ungrateful you are, how much you owe them, how 100 percent bad you are, and even try to talk you into accepting bullying as the payment. All of this blaming and shaming is most often accompanied by lack of respect for boundaries. In other words, they don't usually talk to you ten feet away in a calm respectful intelligent empathetic manner. They are in your face, intimidating you, threatening you, shouting at you, spitting on you, interrupting you. It is not uncommon for them to be insulting you, pushing or shoving you, throwing you around, twisting a limb, choking you or mock choking, hitting you, using false imprisonment on you (very often "I will not let you go unless" ...), and if they aren't getting what they want out of you, either escalating the violence in some way, or calling police over trumped up charges. In fact, people who punish over facial expressions or a tone in someone's voice usually have all kinds of plans made well in advance of your coming so that they can get out of trouble with ease, try to switch the victimhood (which I discussed above: it is their motivation for calling the police). In other words they will try to flip the abuse on to you (in other words, call you the abuser, typically referred to as blame shifting).

I felt incredibly lucky to have dodged a bullet once I heard domestic violence survivors and child abuse survivors tell what they had gone through by trying to talk it out with their abusers. One of them landed in the hospital, another one was driven off the road at a high rate of speed, another stole her car keys, shoes and coat while she was visiting (false imprisonment), a child abuse survivor had a T.V. thrown at him and his toys destroyed.

Some therapists tell clients "Never ask why" because of all of these reasons and then some, but some domestic violence therapists tell their clients they can ask "why" through e-mail, text or a recorded phone call to get more feedback and information.

The most common answers that "typical impulsive abusers" give as to why there is a punishment for facial expressions and a tone of voice are these answers:

gaslighting answers:
"You KNOW why!"
"You can't figure this out? Come on now!"
"You need to think about what you have done!"
"I don't need to answer that. You have a pretty good idea."
"Because you're ungrateful. You know what you did!"
"You never were good at figuring out what you do that is terrible. You need to think more! You mean to tell me that you are innocent all of the time? I don't buy it!"
"Take some time to think about it. I don't want to hear from you until you can behave."
"You brought this upon yourself. You are in the doghouse now."
And variations on this theme.

If you tell them that you are not a mind-reader, they typically join the gaslighting answer with verbal abuse:

"What's the matter with you? Are you stupid?! It's so obvious!"
"Are you crazy? Just think about it and come back to me with an answer! It better be soon or it will be too late!"
"Because you're a bitch! If you can't figure it out then something is seriously wrong with you!"
"I know you! You're a sick piece of sh$t! I can't stand you! If you can't figure it out, I want nothing more to do with you! Do you hear? Nothing!! Get your sniveling little child out of here too!"
"You owe me! Since you can't pay me then I'm going to punish you! Sounds right to me! If you can't do what I say, you are going to get it good! You always were a piece of crap!"
"You meant to glance at him because you are crazy enough to try to make me feel jealous. You were trying to signal that you want him. Therefore you need to be punished for that thought." (besides gaslighting and insulting, there is also perspecticide in this statement, another common tactic among abusers).
And variations on this theme.

The reason why these answers are important is because gaslighting and verbal abuse confirms the personality disorder even more (abusers are known to use gaslighting, verbal abuse and deriding your character for their explanations to you about why they acted the way they acted, their reasoning through the issue between you, their thoughts, and their feelings where as people without Cluster B personality disorders rarely, if ever, use gaslighting phrases and verbal abuses to work out an issue like this).

These phrases aren't about talking to you and offering you a reasonable thought-out explanation, they are about talking at you. They are both outright, and subtle, forms of attack (i.e. abuse). They are also instances of infantilizing you (very common: treating you like a child who needs to learn lessons from them and punished for not learning lessons to their standards of perfection), lecturing and reprimanding (also common among abusers and not appropriate to close personal relationships) and invalidation.

It is one reason you won't find a fulfilling answer, so if you can't get one through e-mail or text, it does not make much sense to talk to them in person.

You can also ask them what the punishments will be in e-mail and text forms. Some of them actually tell you. Most won't and will be giving you the same kind of gaslighting answers.

However, the most dangerous abusers are not as impulsive as the ones I have talked about so far (that's where the Machiavellian abusers come in: the dark triad and dark tetrad). These personalities may sweet talk you into a meeting to talk things over. They may say they have presents, even apologize, or send you a cake, money or flowers, and then once you have "softened up" and enter their door, or are driven to a remote spot, beat you up. Or wait to enact some sort of dark revenge fantasy. And by the way, dark revenge fantasies can come about no matter what you do or say, even if it is non-provoking and innocent, even if you are quietly going about your business and not talking to them, because again, they erroneously blame, and even make things up out of thin air to blame you about.

The general advice is not to trust ANYONE who wants to hurt you. If they are hurting you or threatening to hurt you over erroneous blaming incidences like a facial expression or tone of voice, it is even worse. Be aware that it is the mark of psychopaths, sociopaths, people with dark triad or dark tetrad personalities, and tendencies in that direction. Most are quite dangerous. Talk to a domestic violence counselor on how to handle people who behave in this way and have their sights on you.

HOW DID ABUSERS GET LIKE THIS?
WHY DO FACIAL EXPRESSIONS AND VOCAL TONES
SET THEM OFF?

All of these quick facial expressions seem to loom incredibly large in the minds of abusers, are so impressionable as to be stuck in their memory, obsessively churned over and over in the mind, and yet, I have seen over and over, that most of us who are recipients don't consider a single facial expression that could set us off. If we ruminate about our own facial expressions, we don't understand what could have set them off either. While there are conditions which show drastically different facial expressions from what you are feeling, most of us don't have those conditions. It baffles.

Unless your memory can stick to a common bird zipping across the sky in a second and to be enraged about it, it seems just as far out of the realm of normal experience to be obsessed and so deeply enraged by someone's split second facial movements that you want to do great bodily damage, or to reject them without a backward glance or a bit of conversation on the matter.

Targets of abuse who have been raised by a child abuser tend to over-think what they might have done wrong that set their abuser off.

In contrast, targets with a very supportive non-abusive family will know that something is wrong with the enraged other person. They may do a little bit of self reflection, but probably not much. They will most likely want to get out now.

Child abuse victims will be doing a great deal of self reflection (not necessarily the golden child in abusive families, but other siblings, yes). While the parent abusers are obsessively churning over the "provoking" facial expression, their child abuse victims tend also to be obsessively churning over their part of the conversation too, the facial expression that might have "caused" the rage, or at the very least "the mountain that was made out of the molehill". They will be playing over the conversation in these ways:

"What if I had said _____________, would that have enraged him as much?"
"How do I placate (the abuser), and explain what is really happening?" - and then when they realize they can't placate, "Why is this happening?" and never being able to figure it out (i.e. it's not meant to be figured out purposely, by the abuser).
"What could have I done to cause this much rage?"
"Why can't I please him? I work so hard at it with no results."
"What's the matter with me? Am I having facial expressions that I don't mean to have?"
"Did I glance the wrong way?"
"Am I really as stupid as he says I am? Maybe. I just don't know what set him off. And how do I become smarter about this?"
"What's the next step? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do or think about this. I feel frozen with indecision. Should I ask someone else what they think about all of this?"
"Does this mean our relationship is over?"
"Why is he trying to hurt me like this? Have I really done something wrong?"
"Why am I such a burden? Should I just stay quiet and not say anything if I am sick or need something?"
"Should I just die? Would that make (my mommy or daddy) more happy?"

This is the inversion of what the perpetrator is doing. Often child abuse survivors spend most of their time and ruminations finding fault inside themselves to make the relationship with the abuser better and whole again, and abusers spend most of their time finding fault outside themselves, with their children.

The good news is that child abuse victims, and particularly family scapegoats, will have a much easier time healing and moving beyond finding fault inside themselves, whereas abusers tend to stay "fixed" and only find fault outside themselves (for life). Abusers also only like relationships where the other person is finding fault within themselves, so the high majority will give up on people who find any of the fault in them. It means abusers never grow out of what they are doing. When survivors finally become enlightened through therapy, and really understand where their internal dialog came from, they are too much of a liability to the abuser and the abuser's ego, especially if the survivor gets good therapy.

In order to be a healthy person, you have to be both self reflective (i.e. know what caused a reaction in the other person) and at the same time know the agenda of other people. Enlightenment and maturity require both. My own view is that if you really want to do well in life you should study personality disorders to avoid the kind of thinking and confusion that leads to too much self reflection and not enough reflection of how others are behaving.

If you are a child abuse survivor, it would be good to read up on PTSD too to understand why you react the way that you do, why you are drawn to certain people, and the thoughts, feelings, "mental tapes", ruminations, sleeping patterns, anxiety (hypervigilence), situations, careers, styles of dress, why you keep house a certain way, and so on. The more self awareness you have, the more that you can transcend feeling wounded by the child abuse, the better a parent you will be, and the better antennae you will have for healthy people (i.e. people you do want and don't want around your children, your spouse, your friends and yourself).

In general, healthy people do not want to erroneously blame; they won't be trying to trash your self esteem; they won't send blaming shaming flying monkeys your way to hurt you; they won't be comparing you negatively to others, they won't be punishing (abusive) towards you; they won't be giving you the silent treatment if they feel they can't dominate you (i.e. put themselves in the dominant "up position" and you the receiver of the domination in the "down position"). They won't be beating you up for facial expressions. Be with the healthy people.

As to why abusers act like this?

It has to do with how they were molded as children by the parent. In family systems theory, an abusive-style golden child is molded to be competitive, aggressive, to sweet talk to get what he wants, to be an authority figure, and often groomed to feel he can do no wrong and that he is entitled to receive "more". A scapegoat is molded to think about why he or she is being abused and listening  to a parent telling them how they deserved it, why they are flawed and unwanted, to walk on eggshells and to be super-sensitive to everyone else's feelings while denying their own, and often groomed to feel they can do no right (given double bind situations and dilemmas), and punished  by receiving "less".

Please note that not all golden children are molded to be bullies. Some are just molded to be sycophants (put the parent first place in their lives). But over half are the bully-style goldens.

Some psychologists say that narcissism is inherited, that it has something to do with genes. But I tend to pay most attention to psychologist Dr. Ramani Durvasula's findings in that "narcissists and sociopaths are made, and psychopaths are born". That is because they have done the best extensive studies on it at the lab where she works: the University of Southern California. Dr. Judy Rosenberg is also a proponent of the same kinds of models and findings, and also resides in Southern California where the extensive tests have been done.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula has also made the claim that a lot of narcissism and sociopathy is a "bully golden child issue"; i.e. that the golden child is often molded to be a mini-me version of the narcissistic or sociopathic parent, or to be an agent of the parent (someone who will uphold the parent's agendas).

With so much molding and grooming to make a golden child feel good and rewarded about being a bully, and unempathetic to the plight of his or her siblings, to be "better than your siblings", this has a lot to do with how they end up being abusers. The scapegoats on the other hand are groomed to "think about what you have done", and it may very well have included facial expressions, tones of voice and other erroneous blaming incidents that the golden child sees throughout childhood.

One reason why abusers think it is reasonable to hurt others over facial expressions and a tone of voice or a glance is probably because they saw it happen in their childhood home. It was normalized. The administration of the punishments were most likely promoted and accepted. Not having empathy was also promoted and accepted. Most likely no one ever really listened to the person who was being blamed over a facial expression or tone of voice.

When children are brought up to be a competitive aggressive bully who can do no wrong, they will most likely become a permanent unchanging bully who feels he is always right.

The major reason why they can't and don't want to change can be about the parent's suppression of empathy in all of the children except the scapegoat. They survived the abusive early atmosphere by siding with the parent and being unempathetic. If they had been empathetic for a sibling who was receiving a great deal of abuse, they surmise they would have been severely punished for it.

When you have a bully golden child as a mate, you have a person who was molded in this way, to look at himself as a person who can never do wrong, to not to feel empathy over someone's suffering or injustice (to feel disgust over abused disenfranchised members of society instead, although they do "fake it" sometimes to not appear suspect), to erroneously blame when there aren't better blaming opportunities to latch onto, to be an administrator of punishments, to be entitled to receive extraordinary "me first" rewards, praise and treatment.

The only thing that would change that mold from childhood is if they dared to have empathy and to give you some empathy. Try talking an abuser into empathy. It doesn't happen. If anything, they become enraged instead. Or they say that "Empathy is for weaklings" or "I don't care about empathy" or they will be gaslighting you and playing a game of one-ups-manship: "I am more empathetic than you are!"

Without empathy, you won't be treated right. You won't have a healthy relationship. If anything you will experience more and more invalidation from your abuser and more pain.

Some other reasons why they are doing this:

1. They feel deeply wounded when you don't do exactly what they want (narcissistic injury). Part of this is entitlement run amok: i.e. they feel they deserve something and you don't deserve the same thing. If you are honest about your abuser, they would never tolerate you punishing them over a facial expression. So it is hypocrisy run amok too.
   Most abusers look at their victims as little children (called infantilizing). Part of infantilizing means they will be lecturing, telling you what to do, what to say, reprimanding you, being patronizing, being dictatorial, being dominating, insisting you tell them where you are and what you are doing at all times, insisting that you break confidential information that others have told you. "Infantilizing" mainly means treating you like a child. If someone did this to them, would they have tolerance for this? So, again, we run into a situation of hypocrisy.
   Do they change their behavior? Not very likely. They get addicted to power and control. Once they feel they cannot dominate you in this way, they often leave you to find someone who they can dominate and infantilize more than they could you.

2. Invalidating and perspecticide: In a lot of ways this is about infantilizing too. They want you to assume that you don't know your feelings and thoughts, only they do. And if you tell them that they are not getting your feelings and thoughts right, they will call you a liar. In other words, they try to brainweash you into thinking that only they can tell what you feel and think, and that you don't. A lot of narcissists and sociopaths like to think of themselves as mind readers, but they are often much further "off the mark" than the rest of the population. See my post on false narratives.

3. How much authority and pain will you withstand from them?: I would describe this as a cruel game. They usually insert more emotional pain as time goes on in your relationship and increase the erroneous blaming too in order to see how much they can get away with hurting you with this tactic (and therefor putting up with them). Usually if they are at the stage where they are terrorizing you over facial expressions and vocal tones, the erroneous blaming is at its ultimate. It means, to them, that they can blame you for anything and everything, even completely made up things, that they no longer have to look for a good excuse to punish you, that a facial expression will do, a vocal tone will do, looking over at something or someone will do, and that you will tolerate it (if you stay with them or still want them). It also signals to them that you can be brainwashed and bullied into thinking something is wrong with you, even your facial expressions and vocal tones. If you have gotten to this stage, you have heard more "what's-wrong-with-you stuff" than you can even count: hundreds of times? thousands of times? tens of thousands of times? hundreds of thousands of times? So the facial expressions and vocal tones stage is like reaching the mountain of domination for them: they have achieved the ultimate in arrogance: the right to tell you what you feel, think, experience, and what every move, bodily function and bodily twitch means about you (most of it will be used as a weapon). To them this is something they take with dead seriousness. For you, I hope you are laughing, and see how incredibly silly and posturing this is (it is like they want to play the role of king, but too arrogant to know that there are no clothes on them).

4. They generally make assumptions about others, even about facial expressions, because they are too self involved to do anything else.
   They are also incredibly unable to self reflect. Most of us mull through personal issues this way: "I said this, which caused them to react that way, which caused me to react this way, which caused them to react that way - jeez, we need to fix this! Obviously we are triggering each other, and taking a lot of baggage into this issue." - that is how most of us think, but it is not how they think. They think this way instead: "They caused me to react this way, and it is up to them to fix it." - that's narcissism. And it is also the big difference between normalcy and narcissism.
   Because they are unable to self reflect, most of what they have to say is projection: what is going on inside of them (not you). If they think your facial expression means that you want to hurt them, it probably means they want to hurt you (big warning sign that they probably will hurt you). If they think your tone of voice is disrespectful, it is probably because they are disrespectful (and most of us know it: they insult people like crazy). If they think you glanced at a man because you want to cheat on them and make love to the guy you glanced at, it is probably because he is cheating, and looks at women as sex objects (and we know that many narcissists are pathological cheaters). In fact projection is so reliable, you can tell the motivations of your abuser, the thoughts of your abuser, what actions your abuser may take against you by what he says about you.
   Because so much of their judgments about you are projection, you also know that they are intimidated by your strengths, and perhaps your normalcy too. The reason why they have to appear stronger and domineering than you is because they don't feel strong inside (it actually is blustering, kind of how a house cat puffs up its fur when feeling threatened). It becomes a competition for who is going to be the dominant heavy-weight in the relationship. If they were actually secure, they would not need to dominate. They would not need to tell you that everything is your fault and nothing is their fault. They wouldn't need to put you down to feel better. They wouldn't need to tell you that you are crazy (let's face it: narcissism, abuse, gaslighting, perspecticide and expecting perfection in deeds in looks is pretty darn crazy, and crazy making ... and yet very few of us tell them they are crazy because we have empathy and don't want to hurt their self esteem).
   Probably the most crazy-making thing they do is to assume that you look at them as the ultimate authority figure on what and who you are, that they are mind readers, what fleeting moments of looks mean about you, and they never question the validity of making improper and absurd judgments about any of this. They can even hate you and kill you over crazy judgments. I would say that's a lot more insane than anything we do.

Which is to say that once they are at the stage of punishing you over facial expressions, glances and vocal intonations, they are dangerous. You're in trouble. Time to call a domestic violence center. I have met so many battered women over this issue that I have lost count.

As for survivors living through this: getting a complex about your facial expressions, not wanting to hurt an abusive person over a glance, kids crying because "my face does things I don't want it to do because I'm always being hit for what's on my face!" is common to the brainwashing experience. We are constantly groomed to see these experiences as "something being wrong" with how we are communicating. Punishing you over facial expressions and vocal tones is a practice among incarcerated abusers as much as high functioning non-incarcerated "trickster", successful educated abusers. Abuse is abuse, and we even see abuse in presidents, and presidents are more powerful than your abuser, so don't assume that they are so powerful that you can't call the police or domestic violence centers for help.

IT IS VERY COMMON THAT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE THERAPISTS
SPEND A LOT OF INITIAL TREATMENT ON THE SUBJECT:

In the very beginning of treatment, most therapists spend an inordinate amount of time trying to deal with the facial expression issue:

"You don't deserve to be hit because you glanced across the room!"
"No, there is nothing wrong with your facial expressions!"
"No, that's THEIR interpretation of what you are feeling!"
"If someone made a grimace at you on the street, would you punch him in the gut? There are many reasons why we don't punch someone over a grimace, and there are many reasons why a lot of people don't do it on the street! Because they could be arrested! Punching you in the secrecy of a home is as illegal as doing it on a street. It is harder to arrest people who do it in a home and that's why abusers choose home to do it. It's called isolation and a lot of abusers practice isolation on their victims. They are also cowards and liars. In order to be an effective coward and a liar, they have to do their abuse  without eyes on the situation. Anyway, always think of this as being as arrest-able as punching you in the gut on a busy street with people looking on. Do you understand what I am saying? This is not normal behavior on your abuser's part. Looking at someone does not make his actions redeemable. This has nothing to do with you. Not at all. Don't be brainwashed!"
"Glances and facial expressions can have many interpretations, plus they are all fleeting. Don't get talked into deserving to be punished over them!"
"No, that's called gaslighting! I'm a therapist and I don't think you are crazy! I'm the one doling out the diagnoses! There is absolutely nothing crazy about you at all!"
"Again, everyone in the room, listen up! Abusers love to call you crazy! Many love to punish you over facial expressions and glances!"
"Did you deserve to be hit because your husband decided that how you looked at him was offensive? If a three year old child looked at you with that expression, would you hit that child? No, of course you wouldn't! So, why should you get hit for that same expression?"
"Did you plan on an expression just to hurt your mother? No, it was a fleeting expression, something that changes from moment to moment. That does not deserve your mother's abandonment of you!"

This is not much different than the Turpins trying to convince their children that if they get water from the faucet past their wrists, they deserve to be chained up, lying in their own excrement and beaten.

Did those children still get startled if water splashed past their wrists even when they were away from their parents and into foster homes? Probably yes. Because they were groomed so consistently that water past their wrists was a punishable offense.

Do victims of domestic violence get hung up on what is sweeping across their face? Yes, absolutely. It takes time to get past the brainwashing about facial expressions, vocal tones and the violence.

But if you want to survive and to be happy, you must allow domestic violence workers to help you shed the grooming and the brainwashing. Spending your time with other survivors is important too, as you will realize it is possible to get through the experiences.

As long as you and your therapist are questioning the validity of someone punishing you over facial expressions, glances and vocal tones, you are on the right track. If you have a therapist who hasn't addressed this issue, and it is a big issue in your relationship with your abuser, I would find another therapist. In fact any kind of erroneous blaming is too big an issue for a therapist to ignore.

There is never an excuse for punishing you over facial expressions, glances and vocal tones. In fact, if you are an adult (over age 18 years old), there are no reasons for punishments, period. Always look at punishments in close personal relationships as abuse. If you are under age 18, and this is a pattern (i.e. not a one-time occurrence), you can call Child Protective Services (even without your parent's permission).

(edit on 7/7/2020):

After I published this post, Richard Grannon put up a video that I think best explains the dynamic of what goes on in domestic violence counseling to get a co-dependent thinking about breaking free of their abuser: to stop fawning, to stop being brainwashed that just a glance deserves a beating (or other kinds of abuse), and ultimately to stop victimization. 

My comment to him was the following:

"This is a much more elaborated version that is taught in domestic violence counseling (especially women who are beaten for just glancing at someone of the opposite sex ... 'Sleeping with the Enemy' movie portrays this dynamic). Beaten women have to be talked out of 'the glance' being their fault (and yet they know it is not their fault, but again, they feel they have to please the narcissist). I am going to suggest this video on my own blog as I think this is a better way to teach it in domestic violence counseling rather than going over and over the brainwashing ("No, you don't deserve to be hit! Hitting is not a reasonable response to glancing at anything!"). This breaks it down and I think would have a greater impact at educating women in terms of 'toxic attachment' to a narcissist. Great video."

I'm not crazy about his title however. A better phrase might be "Understanding Yourself and the Narcissist in the Co-dependency Game":

"Codependent as mirror image of narcissist"
by Richard Grannon


further reading:

Erroneous Blaming - my own post

Invalidation and Perspecticide - my own post

Mommie Dearest Movie Review - my own post (Mommie Dearest as portrayed by her adoptive daughter punished her child over facial expressions, a tone of voice and a glance)


Perceiving the evil eye: Investigating hostile interpretation of ambiguous facial emotional expression in violent and non-violent offenders - by Niki C. Kuin, Erik D. M. Masthoff, Marcus R. Munafò and Ian S. Penton-Voak (project funded by a number of universities)

Why our facial expressions don’t reflect our feelings - by Talya Rachel Meyers for the BBC
excerpt:
For centuries, we’ve believed that facial expressions mirror our innermost emotions. But recent research has found that may be far from the truth.

Physical Aggression and Facial Expression Identification - by Alisdair James Gordon Taylor and Maria Jose for the Department of Ophthalmology & Visual Sciences, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada and Department of Psychology, University of Surrey, Guildford, United Kingdom.

In your face: the biased judgement of fear-anger expressions in violent offenders - by
Martin Wegrzyn, Sina Westphal & Johanna Kissler
excerpt:
... For example, inmates diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder or psychopathy have been found to show deficits in emotion expression recognition ...

Factors of Emotion Recognition in Faces: Three Perspectives - by Jeremy Fox for John Hopkins University

Psychopathy and Identification of Facial Expressions of Emotion - by Mark E. Hastings, Ph.D., June P. Tangney, Ph.D., and Jeff Stuewig, Ph.D.
This article talks about the impaired recognition of sociopaths and psychopaths when it comes to facial expressions (i.e. the ability to tell whether someone else is happy or sad)

Cynical Hostility and the Accuracy of Decoding Facial Expressions of Emotions - by Kevin T. Larkin, Ronald R. Martin and Susan E. McClain for Journal of Behavioral Medicine

Generalized hostile interpretation bias regarding facial expressions: Characteristic of pathological aggressive behavior - by Smeijers D, Rinck M, Bulten E, van den Heuvel T, Verkes RJ for:
* Department of Psychiatry, Radboud University Medical Center, Nijmegen, The Netherlands.
* Donders Institute for Brain, Cognition and Behaviour, Radboud University, Nijmegen, The Netherlands.
* Behavioural Science Institute, Radboud University Nijmegen, Nijmegen, The Netherlands.
* Pompestichting, Nijmegen, The Netherlands.

Psychopathic traits in adolescents and recognition of emotion in facial expressions - by Silvio José Lemos Vasconcellos, Roberta Salvador-Silva, Viviane Gauer and Gabriel José Chittó Gauer
for Universidade Federal de Santa Maria, Santa Maria, RS, Brasil and Pontifícia Universidade Católica do Rio Grande do Sul, Porto Alegre, RS, Brasil

Facial affect processing in incarcerated violent males: A systematic review - by
HarrietChapmana, Steven M.Gillespie and Ian J. Mitchell for Aggression and Violent Behavior
Volume 38, January–February 2018, Pages 123-138

Looking For Trouble (And Seeing It) - Association for Psychological Science

Do People See Emotions in Your Face That Aren't There? (Studies of "resting bitch face," and why women see it more than men). - by Gwendolyn Seidman Ph.D. for Psychology Today



Social-emotional agnosia - a Wikipedia article



The Punishing Personality Type - by Eric R. Maisel, Ph.D., for Psychology Today
This article is about how abusers get obsessed with punishing, and why they think they have never punished you enough.

Child Abuse, Punishment or Discipline: What is the Difference - by Jody J. Pawel for The Parent's Toolshop
Note: this is only for children under 16 - 18 years old, depending on state. Punishing an adult is always abuse.

When People Say You Always Looks Angry/Upset/Worried/etc - by Chris Macleod, MSW for Succeed Socially

Lack of Facial Expressions: Symptoms & Signs - by Melissa Conrad Stöppler, MD, for MedicineNet

Research says ‘emotion detection’ AI can’t do what it claims - by Taylor Telford, The Washington Post for New Hampshire Union Leader



Part 2: How to Spot a Sociopath in 3 Steps (It helps to know some of the warning signs of sociopaths.) - by Bill Eddy LCSW, JD for Psychology Today


Narcissists, Sociopaths: Similarities, Differences, Dangers (Both of these personalities present a false self, so we must be aware) - by Bill Eddy LCSW, JD for Psychology Today

Tuesday, April 28, 2020

Parents who are narcissists and sociopaths usually target at least one child to be jealous or envious over their siblings. But does it work? Adult children of narcissists and sociopaths weigh in

From tallying up the results in several forums and other sources where hundreds of adult children of narcissists and sociopaths replied, in roughly half of children targeted by the parent to "feel jealous", it did work in making the child feel jealous.

This was true even when the abused child knows they are being manipulated to feel this way.

Of those half that felt jealousy and envy, a small number of them viewed it in childhood as an on-going never-ending punishment by the parent (trying to make the child jealous and to feel "less than", by over-giving to the siblings and either severely under-giving or not-giving at all, along with all of the other kinds of tactics to permanently make these children feel sad, hurt, hopeless or damaged). Reading through these answers, I would also surmise that a small number of parents may have wanted to destroy their child altogether, or would not mind if their child took their own life.

One of the things that almost all survivors realize in childhood and later on, is that they were presented with a double bind situation when it came to jealousy. Double binds are extremely common for narcissists and sociopaths. In this situation the double bind is presented in this way:

* The parent provokes the child to feel jealousy over his or her siblings, or what his or her siblings get and then hurts or makes a laughing stock out of the child for being such a jealous person. Double binds are damned if you do and damned if you don't situations and are usually reserved for the scapegoats of a family, although lost children and mascots are not exempt.

What I found to be much more common than I ever thought I would (and also extremely disturbing) was that many survivors of child abuse never had a single birthday celebrated throughout their childhoods and adulthoods, or a single gift given to them by their parent, while the parent lavished gifts, rewards and birthdays on their other siblings. How sad!

The majority of these children had either two narcissists as parents, or one narcissist and one sociopath, or two sociopaths. The minority had one narcissist parent and one enabling "I'm-going-to-close-my-eyes-to-the-damage" parent. To me, it is a wonder that children treated in this way and who have parents like this survive at all.

The answer to why they survived is often that some other family member mitigated the circumstances in some way, or a school or teacher intervened, or CPS got involved and there was foster care, or that the hopes and the dreams of the child became much more of their reality than what was happening to them in the family. Often it is a combination of things that add up to survival. But be aware that so many child abuse survivors do not survive: take up risky behaviors, take up risky substance addictions, or commit suicide especially if they feel entrapped by their parents or their situations (finances, disabilities, feeling childhood is too endless, and so on).

A huge number of survivors are actually Scapegoat #2 because their former scapegoat sibling ran away, left, went "no contact" or died by suicide. This may be another reason they were able to survive: they weren't necessarily targeted throughout their entire childhoods.

My other point is that we cannot hear the voices of those who passed away (though I think the last poster would sound like many of them), so the following are only the voices of those who survived it all.

The other half:

The other half who did not feel jealousy or envy usually had some sort of on-going physical abuse or sexual abuse. In other words, they were dealing with something dangerous or threats of danger.

They knew they were being toyed with to feel jealousy and envy too, but they described themselves as feeling numb or dumbfounded instead. Most of these "I can't feel jealousy or envy" type of child abuse survivors also were told that they were "jealous people" by their narcissistic or sociopathic parent, even though the child did not show jealousy or envy, or feel it at all. Some stories were made up about them by the parent for jealousy fantasies as well.

This led me to another realization: that every child abuse survivor who is scapegoated to receive deprivation, or "less than" a sibling is called "a jealous person." In fact, it is as common as gaslighting (I haven't met a single survivor who has not been gaslighted, it is that common, so now we can add the projection of jealousy to this too).

When pressed as to why they did not feel jealousy or envy, many of them did not know why. The feelings of jealousy and envy were that foreign to them. But reading between the lines, safety from physical abuse and sexual abuse were so prevalent in the minds of these children that it superseded all other feelings.

A lot of these children were awake half the night, dealing with panic, fear and anxiety to such levels that they felt it was taking over their entire beings. They replayed events in these hypervigilant states to figure out how they could make the situations more safe or palatable the next time, or how they could escape, or how they could put themselves in danger to end it all, sometimes vacillating between these extremes over the course of one night.

There is a reason why PTSD symptoms often manifest as a numbness of feelings (accompanied, perhaps by Alexithymia). If the abuse is severe enough, that is what it will do.

But for all intents and purposes, narcissists and sociopaths are not tuned into their children's feelings (or anyone's feelings other than their own), so they will use perspecticide to further their own agendas and tell themselves and everyone else that their child is "a jealous person."

Why do narcissists and sociopaths want their child to feel envy and jealousy of their siblings and provoke them in this way? (shortened version):

Note: I will be discussing envy and jealousy as it relates to narcissists and sociopaths in an upcoming post. How they use it can be found in my post on favoritism in the family, but in the meantime the following will explain some of it:

Narcissists and sociopaths feel jealousy and envy to such extremes that they reason to themselves that other people must be feeling those feelings too. So it is, in part, about projection.

If they sense that other people aren't jealous and envious, or that they are happy, or thinking autonomously, they want to provoke them to feel bad, the way they feel. Narcissists and sociopaths are often referred to as "happiness vampires" and what ever they can do to stir up some misery and trouble in other people's lives, that is what they will often do. It is even clear to underage children.

So in order to feel they have control, power and dominance over their child, they like to use jealousy and envy as a weapon. If they feel threatened by a child (in terms of stature, beauty, talent, likability, popularity, success ... or if they feel they cannot dominate the child enough for them ... or if they want to put all of the family's faults on to one child), they will be trying very hard to weaponize jealousy and envy on an ongoing basis.

Normal parents will threaten, "If you don't do this, then (there will be some sort of deprivation or consequence the child won't like)." The difference between normal parenting and narcissistic parenting (or sociopathic parenting) is that in normal parenting these threats are mild and sporadic and most often go away when the child becomes an adult.

For narcissists and sociopaths "If you don't do this, then _____________" is a very severe form of it. And it does not end at age 18 or 21 like it does for normal parents. It often goes on for the entire lifetime of the child. The reason why adult children are punished like they are still underage little children is because narcissists and sociopaths spend an extraordinary amount of time trying to talk themselves, their child and their entire families into the child being baby-like and inept (called infantilizing), cognitively challenged (i.e. "stupid"), crazy (called gaslighting), over-sensitive (because narcissists and sociopaths provoke injustices and erroneously blame so that their child will react with tears or anger) and spacey (which is often the result of PTSD from all of the abuse, labeling and manipulations).

They don't necessarily see their two year old child as being any different from their sixty eight year old child. The labels live on, and on, and on, and rarely change, in their fantasies.

Which brings up my other point. Narcissists (and to some degree sociopaths) put everyone in their lives in roles, complete with labels, complete with character traits that the narcissist (and sociopath) makes up, complete with putting people into all good and all bad camps, and according to value for the narcissist (whether the person they are putting into a role is living up to the role and providing them with narcissistic supply in doing so).  

If roles aren't adhered to, they will be met by the narcissist (or sociopath) with severe punishments, abuse, labeling their child even more derisively than before to other family members, and very often isolating their child from love and familial belonging. In effect they are treated like Jane Eyre ... or worse.

I will be discussing envy and jealousy in a lot more detail as it relates to narcissists and sociopaths in an upcoming post. However, a glimpse into how they use it on their children can be found in my post on favoritism in the family.

SURVIVORS SPEAK OUT ABOUT BEING PITTED AGAINST
THEIR SIBLINGS IN A RIVALRY GAME,
AND WHETHER THEY EXPERIENCED JEALOUSY AND/OR ENVY:

Note: I am only using some of the responses (cutting those that were redundant or irrelevant or confused. I also cleaned up grammar and spelling to make the posts more clear). Each survivor response is a separate individual and separated by asterisks. No names or identifying situations occur in these posts. 

If you are a psychologist or research abuse, feel free to run this question on other survivors. I think you will find that there are a lot of matching answers and that more stringent child abuse laws need to take effect as you will see that there are several mentions of suicide as well as egregious forms of sibling abuse:

Some of the survivor responses follow:

* Yes, I used to feel envious of the GC. But not since reaching adulthood and going to therapy. Everything changed and learning my mother was a narcissist and that I was used as a pawn for this game of hers has changed the way I respond to "the sick game". 

* No we are the doormats....... Feel nothing. Even though we feel everything.

* Seriously? How can we feel anything but disgust for these low-lifes?
   I went through a period of feeling so sad about not having a family. I was so rejected by them. Vicious GC. I wanted to kill myself.
   Healed myself over a ten year period. Went back. Realized how trashy they were. Realized I had so much more on the ball than they did. Laughed at them and their game and felt like one lucky dog.
   They have to try to make you feel jealous because they are pathetic. They have nothing and are nothing. When that's all they have and are, you realize how grasping this game is. It's the gutter game, the last bitter dregs of the barrel to make them feel like they matter.
   Stay clean everyone. Don't get dragged into this!

* Sure, I would feel envious when my sister received everything and I received nothing. Jealousy is typically a side effect of insecurity. How can a scapegoat not feel envious and jealous when they are denied the pleasures that a golden child has been given ten fold?

* I tried to get my mother to love me. She never would or could. And she would try to provoke a reaction out of me by treating the golden child like gold. No pun intended. And that's the rub. I think if she had just said "I can't love you" and didn't try to hurt me with grand gestures of affection to the GC right in front of my nose, I could have forgiven her. But the fact that she purposely tried to make me feel bad my whole childhood with this, no. There is no excuse she could ever give me for that.
   I don't know if I was jealous, tho. Maybe. It was more the feeling of wanting another mother and another family who could love me. And also to have a sister who I was close to who would not goad me that she had Mom's attention and love and I didn't.
   My sister was always counting her toys and my toys and I always came out short by about half the toys she had.
   It's sick what mothers like this do to our self esteem.
   Being in therapy helps because you learn that it isn't normal. But by then we are so scarred and it takes years to heal from it. 

* I am just the opposite. I feel pity for the GC. Don't get me wrong. I knew I was expected to compete with the GC in childhood, but did not adhere to this fantasy of the N father and as a result I was often not a part of my father's life. Definite punishment. But I didn't want to be anyway even though I never told him. I really preferred being alone to work on my own interests rather than on his interests and with my father, you were just stupid if you didn't think his interests and ways of thinking were awesome. Arrogance noted, and that's what turned me off.
   I have a very successful career, a loving wife, children I am proud of while my brother has gone nowhere and done nothing with his life except to be a shadow to our overbearing father. If anything, he is depressed, caught in an addiction and jealous of me.
   I had the foresight to know that our father was going to be my downfall and my brother didn't. I didn't respect my father and he did. He believed in his promises and I didn't. Our father's promises were as frequently taken away as his volatile temper. Why my brother hung on to something so fleeting and unstable is something I will never understand.

* The GC role was handed out in alternating waves with my sister depending on NM's wild mood swings.
   In childhood when my sister was the GC, I was jealous of her, and when I was the GC she was jealous of me.
   However as this game progressed, I saw it for what it was and that the jealousy provoked was intentional by our NM. I was tired of being manipulated.
   Being the GC is not all it is cracked up to be. It's a role for the brainwashed. I preferred thinking for myself.

* When I was a kid, yes. I was born with an innate sense of fairness and equality so my golden brother's treatment really tore at me.
   But when all grown up, I really did not have envy or jealousy for anyone.
   I have a theory that we are often chosen as the scapegoat because we are empathetic or sensitive and a narc has to destroy those qualities. It's just how they are. Sensitives generally don't feel much envy.

* No, I don't, but the GC accused me of being insecure about her. Those who know me believed otherwise, that she is the one who is insecure and envies me. Projection is their game.

* I notice that many people get jealous of me within the family. They do not want to support me no matter what. Enjoy that I get mistreated. They get off on my serious health problems too.
   I believe they are jealous because I am strong and clever. Able to break the pattern and take a step by step approach to the top with true colors. While they choose to stay on the team of mis-treaters.
   My huge question is why? Do they not understand that they just prove that when they do this they are in the basement?  
   I am able to understand the narc. But not the ones on their team. And they feel shame to admit the truth, facts and the reality. 
   They have to understand that they have to break the pattern. Otherwise they are in the basement forever.

* Scapegoats feel neither. Scapegoats grovel for approval and validation yet have no idea they are being gutted behind their backs by the very people they loved the most. When the truth sets in and sets in hard, that’s when they walk away. It’s over and at that point there’s no going back because it’s obvious there is nothing there. 
   These narcs have manufactured something to be jealous of because there isn't anything to be jealous of. Kind of like the man behind the curtain in the "Wizard of Oz". Just some wimpy desperate thing they have to do to feel powerful and wanted. It doesn't work.  

* I'm not a jealous person at all. Growing up my two older sisters' birthdays were celebrated and mine wasn't.
   My parents would spend hours washing and braiding their long hair. Mine was always unkempt. They got treated like heaven on earth and I was such a burden.
   I just accepted that's the way it was.
   It was only when I was in my 40s that I saw how everything was, that I have huge issues with everything that happened to me. 
   Still not jealous though. Just unhappy and angry.

* My NM really wants me to be jealous of others. She projected herself on to me. I am pressured to be like her and to be as jealous as she is.
   Like I am not allowed to think that it is just fine if other siblings are managing themselves. 
   She wants me to feel worthless and empty. To not make me like her reminds her of being a loser. Like she believes two losers are better than one and that she has to have company in that. 

* Yes, I felt jealousy. but I think it was more the pain of unfairness and preferential treatment that made me feel "jealous". I never felt entitled or like I deserved something ... it was a realm I never felt a part of, so it didn't occur to me to want what my sister had. I was on the outside of the store window, looking in.

* Me either, not jealous at all.

* No. I just wanted things to be fair. Equal. But my NM always said I was jealous of "this or that" and that I was confused when I would deny feeling jealous. It was as if she wanted be to be jealous. She obviously wanted to hurt me.

* The bad children in my family were the GC.

* Yes...it almost destroyed my relationship with my sister and then we talked about it and worked through it. I have always been treated differently from her, been separated from her by my narc parent, been jealous....I am working through it.

* I DID compete. He is DEAD now. I am alive. Still doesn't matter though because I am always a scapegoat. They want to beat me down so I kill myself like he did. Pitting children against each other for your own sick fantasies and desires is what they do. What do you mean "Do we feel?" Of course we do! We feel like we need protection and acceptance and love and are abused and not protected as children. It is like the damn Hunger Games in these homes. It is Survival.

* I think my mother tried to triangulate and use jealousy to her advantage. But she never understood me enough to make it work too well. I still remember my little sister being so impressionable and getting all of these hideous velour gym clothes at Christmas in horrid colors (matching with my NM). It made me laugh and I was so happy NM didn’t buy those for me, as my GC little sister made rude comments to me and showed off on xmas morning. She used to LOVE bragging and I used to just watch in disgust. I even took photos I still have somewhere of her sticking her tongue out at me in a purple one.

* As a child I did feel a lot of frustration and confusion about being treated differently, that I couldn’t figure out how to make my parents love me. Now I know that was never my responsibility. They were just not doing their job as parents. 
   As for jealousy, I’ve never really felt it towards anyone. 
   Sometimes I wonder if it’s because I'm a little self absorbed? I live in my head an awful lot. I also don’t want the same things as most people. 
   My GC sis used to insist that I was or should be jealous of her, and I couldn’t make her understand that although I was glad that she was happy with her life, that it just wasn’t the kind of life that I wanted.

* I won’t lie. Sometimes I did get jealous. But more over the way my mother could be there for my sister but not for me.

* Let's get realistic here. A mature parent is supposed to protect their children from sibling rivalry and most of all, sibling abuse. But narcissists are too immature for that. They try to bring out the sibling rivalry and enhance it, make it grow, get it to be severe, get their own child to be beat up by it.
   I bet we know a lot of families where the siblings are best friends. I would bet no one here has even a slightly close or even a modicum of a healthy relationship with a sibling.
   These narcissists only care about their little puny egos being worshiped. They have to have people fighting over them or they feel meaningless. That's because they are in many ways. Look at their own lives. Most of them are failures at their jobs, they aren't all that smart even though they pretend to be or greatly inflate their intelligence, or they get somewhere by acting like mobsters, through dishonesty, back-stabbing and false gossip, breaking laws or moral codes of conduct, and belligerence. They are always concerned with who has what, putting other people down, making crap up about people. We know that about them. They are all like in that way!
   These are child abusers. Who can be proud of that?
   So since they have very little to be proud of, they have to manufacture a game where they pretend to be so desirable that they have to have their own children fighting over them.
   Bring the innocents to the slaughter, right? How many of us have seen how one of their children commits suicide and they don't feel a thing. They are such sickos they appear to glorify in it. "Oh, my child killed himself over me! I'm so important! Let's go shopping and celebrate!"
   Don't waste your time and your life being sad over not being wanted by someone like that. Be glad you are not in their sights because if you are, they will throw you in the gladiator ring with what ever brute of a sibling or some other relative or even their newest flame.
   Get therapy, learn about these monsters, heal and forget about them. Let their wispy little egos blow away to go elsewhere for their sicko supplies.
 
* So true. But we don't realize it until some therapist says, "Your parent sounds very narcissistic". My therapist said, "That's a very sociopathic thing to say" so many times about my father. My ears perked up. I was like, "What? What did you just say?" And then I was told how real parents respond. My father's response was so far away from that. I was told it was the opposite from how real parents react. It was the first time in my life that I got the sense that something was wrong with him rather than me.
   I hadn't thought to look at him as the culprit.
   Our parents don't want us to find out about child abuse and Antisocial Personality Disorder. They want us to believe we are flawed and that their punishments of us are never abuse. They have to gaslight us like crazy that we are unlovable and unwanted, that no one would ever put up with us. Once we know the truth, how they view us never effects us again. They are depraved sociopaths. And they know it. And now we finally know it too.
   That's when the sibling rivalry, the suicidal thoughts and all of the abuse finally ends. They can only get away with it for so long. They know they are up against professionals. Whose parent hasn't gone into hiding when the professionals come on the scene?

*Therapists frighten the hell out of them. Therapists are such sibling rivalry spoilers! Such game spoilers too! Rotten narc busters! Lol! 

* Their jealousy is about our youth, beauty, inner beauty which they can never possess. I believe they have had terrible childhoods which created their problem. Someone told me what they have gone through is even worse than what we have gone through. I know mine was pretty bad. Wish I knew more but they revealed nothing, making me feel like I was doing something wrong. Nope they were just jealous thinking my life was better.

* I do. I have competed with my brother. We don’t have a horrible relationship. He isn’t a bad dude. He has a few narc tendencies, but he really does try. He has always been smarter and more successful. He went to an Ivy League, fell into a successful career while I’ve spent 10 years still not figuring it out. He has dozens of close friends. I have almost no friends. It’s definitely normal to feel jealous and competitive when your parents set you up to be so.

* I think there is a healthy amount of jealousy and a toxic amount. Fleeting moments of it and consistent feelings of it. No I don’t feel the envy or jealousy. I want to be happy for people and them to be happy for me.

* I personally don't feel jealousy in general. I don't know why. I had a violent GC. I wanted to be protected more than anything, but if I complained, I would be punished. It was like getting hit twice.
   I also have an incredible amount of empathy to the point that when I see a cut on someone, my whole body aches. I have had that since I was a tot.
   I also was so, so aware, even from the earliest age that NM wanted me to be jealous of the GC - would provoke me with so many injustices so that I would react and then punish me egregiously if I did react. I was also abandoned a lot.
   Perhaps it was the trauma that numbed emotions? Or protecting myself from violence overtook any jealousy?
   At any rate, I can only count the number of times I have felt jealous to two occasions and neither was about my family. One was with a colleague and friend who was excelling at a craft I wanted to be good at. I told him that I felt awful feeling that way, that it wasn't right, and he hugged me and told me that he was not someone to be jealous of because he had been severely abused as a child. His father used to hang him by one foot over very tall bridges and sexually abused him too. Then we started making art pieces together about our abuse. I have no jealousy feelings for him now. Love took over.

 If you are healthy you are going to be feeling jealous of someone who is paraded in front of you as a god, who is given much more than you are, who is your parent's best friend, who can do no wrong in your parent's eye while you are treated the opposite way and hated by your parent for no other reason other than that you are not the same person as your GC sibling. 
   It's not wrong to feel jealous. It is natural. 
   Do you mean to tell me that you all deny that feeling? Why?

* Sorry, but I do not feel it. It is genuine. Maybe it is beaten out of us so much that we can't feel it even if we tried.

* It can be Alexithymia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia which ten percent of the population has. 
   But it often co-occurs with post traumatic stress disorder which a lot of child abuse sufferers go through. It can be as high as 50 percent of all PTSD sufferers. That might explain why around half of us experience envy and jealousy and the other half don't: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-03873-001
   You can see why this happens. The brain fills up with "fight or flight". In "fight or flight" you don't feel anything except that. You don't feel angry, or sad, or compassionate, or competetive, or jealous ... and you also experience amygdala hijacking so you aren't able to reason, learn, think things through that have steps and progressions. All you want to do run and be safe.
   Childhood trauma tends to produce the kind of PTSD that is on-going.  
   In this context, it is very understandable why so many of us don't have the slightest inkling of what jealousy or envy feels like.

* I was told I was jealous... it was a sick and disgusting label to put on a little girl who was struggling with being abused by the golden child who was 8 yrs older and no one would discipline said GC. He was out of control and doing drugs and so abusive and no one did a damn thing because they liked it that way. They bred him that way. He became a violent and abusive adult. You don't compete with that, you run from it. He became addicted to rx meds finally and died an addict in his early 50's and to his NM he is a martyr. He died in his childhood room broke and broken and alone.

* I do. I am over 10 yrs older than the GC and I never knew my NM was capable of the love I saw going towards the GC sister. The difference is night and day. She also favors the GC's children too. She doesn't even try to hide it. It's blatant favoritism. My kids pretty much hate her.
   It's mind blowing. But she did tell me I was an accident as a teen. They had only been married 1 year and 2 months when I was born and my father was still in school. I wasn't in the plan. She had graduated college and was the main bread winner. 
   When my sister was born, they had tried for five years, so she was really wanted.

* Depends on where you are in your healing journey. I felt no jealousy when I went NC and moved across the country. I felt relief and peace.
   As a child, it is hard to understand why the dynamics are so intentionally hurtful and skewed. As an adult, those of us that have made it have undergone enough therapy, counseling (etc..) to teach us of the dynamics of scapegoating, and the other harmful dynamics at play.

* I am trying to decipher whether most scapegoats experience significantly less jealousy than the general population. Like is it really felt? I don't feel it. And why a lot of us don't feel jealous - numbing from trauma? That most of us are empaths? That the narc parent wanted us to be like them and so badly to feel jealousy that we rebel by not feeling jealous?

* I didn't feel it .. Jealousy was always their realm. It was jealousy that fueled my NM to act the way she did.

* There is nothing about my NF that is at all enviable. It would be like envying hot air. The GC emulated the bastard and nothing there either. I was certainly tortured in every way imaginable by both of them, but envy or jealousy? Not a chance of it. 

* Unfortunately, I feel it. No matter how much I have learned about the scapegoat being the lucky one in the family because they are the only one who has the insight to break away from the dysfunction, I am still FIERCELY jealous of my Golden Child sister and the wonderful and exciting life she leads - her friends, career, yada, yada yada. If I had known about all of this sooner (before the age of 55), perhaps I could have found the same success in life that my sister has, instead of believing the subtle message I was given, that I was never going to amount to much!

* I don't have a jealous bone in my body. My NM was abused by her narc mom. My grandmother's mom had schizophrenia and was taken away from the family. So this was all passed down from the generations. It stopped with me, and my children understand these dynamics. Thank goodness. I am an only child, however my mom has a younger sibling that is 8 yrs older than me. She always compared me to her, even when we both had kids. It was annoying but I was never jealous because everyone has their shit to deal with, and me too.

(My note here about the post above: in the past, particularly pre-1980, many child abuse victims were wrongly diagnosed as schizophrenics. So if a grandmother or great grandmother was diagnosed as a schizophrenic, they could have been part of the multi-generational trend of child abuse instead. Being "taken away from the family" was also much more common than it is today. A parent could have a child institutionalized without proper investigations ... the idea then was that parents were saints and could never intentionally hurt their own children, however we know much better now: child abuse of all kinds is actually up quite a bit, and some of the past mistakes of mis-diagnosis and incarcerating abused children in insane asylums probably helped to contribute to it)

* I was made the caregiver to my younger sister and brother. I consider them my children in a way. My mother was extremely neglectful. I was really more of an employee than a daughter except that I didn’t get paid. I’m not jealous of the easier life that my younger siblings had. But it was very hurtful to realize they didn’t feel the same depth of love and care for me that I felt for them. Now they are flying monkeys to my mother, supporting her lies and denials of the abuse. We had completely different childhoods.

* I had to ignore my emotions to survive. So I felt nothing.

* Aha! There you have it. Believe that it was the same with me. Just be invisible.
   I had to be the mother of my brother. He never wanted to be close to our NM either as a child. Got bonded to me and my father.
   He became addicted to her when he became older.
   I went NC with NM when I was young.
   We had different fathers and his became alcoholic.
   We are both alone. And separated from each other too.

* I’m not jealous of someone who lacks empathy, who triangulates people and who can’t unconditionally love their own children. Nope.

* Yes, I think this is the difference between 'Us' and 'Them'. Whilst we might feel jealous from time to time we don't actively seek to destroy the other person, which is what a narc would do.

* I always knew it was a game because my mother was a major cheater and once told my father to fight a duel with her lover to figure out who would get her. She was willing to have one of them die over her. I think the same goes for my brother and me. She wanted us to fight it out as to who would get her love and money and who wouldn't, even though my brother weighs twice as much as me and would kill me over any tiny thing she has. You don't feel jealous in that case. You feel frightened and want to run. She picked him by default because he was willing to fight and I wasn't. I have no idea what he is receiving from her, and if I did, she would probably rub my nose in it, so I like being willfully blind to it all. 
   My question is: does this mean she is a psychopath? 

* I think I might have a psychopath for a mother too. My father went missing mysteriously when I was fifteen. Never found his body, never seemed to love him, had a lover on the side during the time he went missing even though the cops never knew it. My mother constantly told me to run away while I was growing up and it started as early as I can remember. She also shouted at my father to go kill himself more times than I can remember. One of my siblings committed suicide (or maybe something else?). 
   My father was always trying to protect me so she would glare at him. And then when he went missing, the glares went in my direction. The violence increased. She definitely favored my youngest sister. I believe it is because my sister was only five when Dad went missing. I think my mother hates me because she is suspicious of me looking into the truth.
   I was never jealous of my sister even though she received a great deal more than I did. I look at it as my mother buying off my sister so that she wouldn't be close to me, or worse, wonder what happened to our father too. She's a victim of a mountain full of lies and NM will always put her affairs with men above my sister.  
   I chose to escape. I could have brought up my suspicions with police, but she would know who went to the police. If she killed my father she is dangerous to me too. I decided to leave the country. I look her up once in awhile to see if she might be committing crimes, or if my sister is on the "missing persons" list, but that is it. She didn't want me, so now she doesn't have me. She wanted me to run away and I have.
   Jealousy is a waste of time. These mothers are not worth anyone's jealousy. Those of us who gave them up are the lucky safe ones.

* Lesson learned from the poster above. If our parent was just slightly worse, then we would all feel like lucky safe ones. It's like they aren't quite psychopathic enough, so we get dragged kicking and screaming into their sick narcissistic supply games where they feel validated only if their children  experience jealousy or compete with one another for parental love.
   By the way, most families experience parental love without having to work so hard for it. Only crap parents think they are owed something for acknowledging that we exist, that we children need affection and have feelings.
 
* Of course we feel jealous. Most of us are highly emotional and empathetic but jealousy is a natural emotion in some situations. I felt jealous of my younger brother often. At some point though I realized that it brought nothing but bad emotions and I sort of just accepted being the black sheep.

* Yeah, I get jealous. Especially when I can’t be in the room with my dad for more than ten minutes without us fighting while my brother goes and spends all day learning woodworking from him.
   I also feel like everyone is out to get me 24-7. It’s an awful feeling I wouldn’t wish upon anyone.

* I notice they try to provoke those feelings in us. They do this and carefully watch your reaction. It's like a game with them to provoke, retreat and then they try to fake you out by pretending they aren't really trying to provoke you at all. They are waiting for you to react so that they can then blame you for reacting. I never responded the way they liked. I wasn't jealous and it showed.

* I do not feel envy or jealously. Foreign to me.

* Me neither. Too scared to feel anything. Fear literally became everything and other feelings did not exist. If I happened to feel anything early on, those feelings were used against me. The way they were used was to put me in even more danger, to get the GC to abuse me more, and to use him as their excuse if they were ever caught. I didn't feel, I wasn't allowed to feel anyway, and fear literally took up all of my brain's energy. Second to that were wishes, wishes that I could escape, wishes that I could belong to a family or get abducted by another family, or that I'd be so unwanted that they would drop me off to live with a loving family. When my wishes didn't come through, I wanted to die. So, no. No feelings of envy. But I still feel fear 17 years later, and like I can never trust anyone or have a life without fear. And this is like this even when I have had full NC for those 17 years.
   I just don't feel they will let me disappear and go unscathed without trying to hurt me again.

* I just feel ripped off. Like they had a good childhood at my expense. They were taught that by hurting me, they would feel better. Like they could steal from me and enjoy what was mine or destroy my things if they wanted. Like they could have everything I wanted, but I didn't deserve even common decency. I felt like Cinderella in an endless nightmare. It's literally the injustice that drives you crazy. But I don't envy or feel jealous of any of them. They are too evil to be jealous of. I'm glad to be me, but it's too bad I had to go through so much pain at age seven. And way beyond age seven.
   I just want peace, locked doors, an alarm system, cameras in every room and for all of them to leave me alone.

* Has anyone else’s GC sibling accused you of being jealous of them? If so, they were projecting. Golden children are jealous of the SG’s freedom, strength, etc.
They are stuck on the puppet strings of the narc parents and must always conform. We are free! We can say anything we want because we are not tied into worrying about their approval. This eats them alive. An email from my NGC bro really opened my eyes to this.

* I think I got over those feelings very early in life. There was just no point in being jealous. I think I am a better woman and better female friend as a result of my experiences. I never feel jealous of other women. I feel genuinely happy for them.

* This isn't just about jealousy, is it? Isn't this really about sibling abuse and our narc parents not protecting us so that we get abused by proxy? So that they are not held accountable for the abuse and instead our sibling is? Who doesn't have a GC sibling who is highly abusive? Aren't they all that way?
   If you are abused by your sibling, you aren't going to be jealous. I don't see how you can be. You are going to want him away from you. Far away. Maybe you can endure a recorded phone call or an e-mail if it's a health problem with a family member, but for the most part physically separated.

* No, a lot of GCs are not abusive. It seems like most of them are, but there are a lot that aren't. Mine isn't. She's just blind more than abusive. Like she's been taught that I'm crazy, but I have never been diagnosed with a mental illness. NM claims I have been but she has no proof. 
   The way they gang up on me is to say I need counseling. I am also treated like an outsider to their relationship. And that is about it.
   The tell-tale sign of the GC is that they are enmeshed with the parent. The are mold-able and susceptible to brainwashing. They are also usually agents of the parent and the parent's agendas. Some of these parents want their GC to be abusive to their siblings and others don't. 
   So the GC is more like a worshiping boot licker than anything else. 
   The GC is rewarded more than we are because a lot of us don't want to be enmeshed, not that we could be anyway. I think narc parents are too frightened by our intelligence and independence to want enmeshment with us. Enmeshment and co-dependency equates to love in their world view and the GC is the safest bet for that.

* My presence makes the GC feel small because I have made something of my life. He hasn't done a thing except to be NM's slave. So our NM compensates for that by making him feel higher than me. I realize that and I don't try to make him feel bad over it.
   But I am able to break the pattern. He can't even take the first step out of being a slave. NM doesn't have enough money to keep him going if she dies, so he is not helping himself. His whole existence rides on whether or not he can be free. 
   Meanwhile he is constantly pressured to be underneath the level of the NM. The basement. So that NM does not feel any competition from him.
   I am not jealous of the GC. He destroyed his whole life by throwing away all of his energy on pipe dreams and false promises that can never materialize. He is the one who is jealous of me. Because I remind him that he is no more than NM and NM's needs.

* I was relieved when NM was focused on the GC because then she forgot about me. I could withdraw into my room and daydream or read. I was emotionally safe if she was focused on someone else.

* I was definitely jealous. Jealous that my sister got better food, better clothing, better everything, and yet I wasn't allowed to even complain. And the rules were quite literally different for her than for us. We would clean the entire house and she never had to clean up after herself. I buried that resentment deep inside me. Even though she turned out to be such a sweet girl, I don't feel as close to her as I do my other sibling, who was primarily the lost child. I need to work on that resentment.

* There is jealousy both within me, the scapegoat, and my GC brother due to my N mom's triangulation and my brother's need to constantly compete with me and his thirst for praises. He received so much positive attention, and feels he is never wrong. He is never made responsible for anything. I was constantly compared to him, negatively. I was teased and criticized and called different, stubborn and weird because I was a quiet child and I was never allowed to express myself.
   Art was my escape and I think he is jealous that I have that talent while I'm jealous because my parents love him more. Because of our upbringing, there is sibling rivalry between us. He doesn't realize he's like our mom now, but he's more of a covert narc than she is.

* I was never jealous due to the fact I was far too busy trying to find out what I was doing wrong all the time.

* My husband and I could care less about NM and her relationship with the GC. NM has tried to stir up both competition and trouble between my husband and me in the same way she used to with the GC and me. It's always about her as queen of praise and approval, always. As if we should care to receive it! The praises are as empty as the criticisms and both are totally self serving.
   When I finally figured out what she was trying to do, I cut her off!
   Now she claims that we are envious and jealous of her, but that's to give her the illusion of feeling better and I'm sure that she's hoping that it will rope us back in. No chance of that and she's not getting a reaction either!

* I can't say that I was jealous of the GC. The GC was just surviving our NF's abuse as I was, just in different ways. I survived it by saying nothing, playing dumb, trying to get out of dodge and not taking NF's mood swings into my soul, and the GC did it by trying to please the bastard. None of it worked in the end. Family estrangement at its ultimate.

* Sexually abusive incestuous GC. No. Just wanted permanent separation. Separation from parents was also the unintentional result, but better than being raped.

* My GC sister is really, really sweet. But she is also too tied to pleasing our mother and being overly dutiful. Did Mom try to triangulate us and make us hate each other and be jealous over each other? Sure she did. But my sister never felt comfortable being the GC. Our mother gave her a lot of stuff and rewards that we never got. But our sister knew we felt jealous and resentful and would try to compensate by sharing what she received in secret.
   One of my other sisters blew it. When Mom found out what our GC sister was doing, she was livid. She told her under no circumstances was she ever to give us a single thing and that it was up to NM to decide who got what.
   So then everyone kept it secret after that.
   I think the reason our sister is the GC is because she is highly empathetic which a narcissist is going to see as someone to exploit and get things out of. NM takes such advantage of our sister. We tell her that, but she looks scared and traumatized when we say that to her. I just hope that NM doesn't break her like she broke the rest of us.

* My GC brother is ten times more abusive and violent than my parents. Orders me around like he's my Drill Sargent and my narcissistic mother lets him get away with it. Even laughs and thinks it is endearing. After a break in and stealing things of mine, destruction to my property, siding with my enemies, being physically wounded to the point where one of my joints is permanently out of alignment, destroying our father's last will and testament where some property was supposed to go to me, stealing the contents of our father's house, I had enough. NM told me to apologize to him, that she held me to be totally accountable. I told her that it was sick, and no way would I apologize. I was dumbfounded by her insistence of it, but I think she always liked seeing me suffer from injustice and treating me like the family martyr.
   Then she smeared my name with the rest of my family, trying to isolate me to make it seem like he was the saint and I was the devil. She told me that she never wanted to have anything to do with me again unless I apologized to my brother and to her and agreed to their version of things.
   It was blackmail but there was absolutely no reason to apologize except to accept more abuse and more danger and I was no longer willing to do that. I felt it had gotten to a life and death situation.
   I was told by a therapist that narcissists will blackmail like this to keep their image clean, so they very often blame the victim.
   I felt like committing suicide for the longest time. If it wasn't for CoDA and other groups, I might have gone through with it.
   I have been without them going on six years now, and I don't miss them. A little bit my mother, but cognitively I don't know why. I have to ask myself if I want to be hurt again.
   As for jealousy, it is impossible to feel when your main purpose is to keep safe and to keep them away from your home and child. I was often tortured in childhood if NM thought I might be jealous. It isn't something I can relate to. I think it would be healthy to feel jealous that my brother was able to take so much from me, but all I feel is the desire for him to leave me alone for the rest of my life. I feel that most of the time about my mother too. Realistically, I have nothing to talk to her about because she is so blind and full of hate for me and so many other people, but there is a little bit of co-dependency in me. I'm working through that. No therapist has said that I should go back to her under any circumstance, that there would be too many consequences and dangers. Little by little the co-dependency is going away.
   The last step for me I feel is forgiving her for what she has done. I think if I could truly forgive her, I could put most of the intrusive memories behind me forever and feel a lot more freedom too. It would also be nice to feel that the danger is totally in the past.

* For me it is that I would like my kids to have a big happy family. I envy healthy families who have that.

* No, I don't feel jealousy. I don't know why. Odd, huh?
 
* I was definitely jealous. Jealous that my sister got better food, better clothing, better everything, and yet I wasn't allowed to even complain. And the rules were quite literally different for her than us. We clean the entire house and she didn't even have to clean up after herself. I buried that resentment deep inside me. Even though she turned out to be such a sweet girl, I don't feel as close to her as I do my other sibling, who was primarily the lost child. Need to work on that resentment.

* I always thought the reason I was abused as a child was that I wasn't perfect. The GC was perfect and we were told that he was. We were told that if we wanted to please our mother to be more like the GC. I tried. I think all of the rest of my siblings tried too but we could never live up. 
   For me there were always chinks in his armor anyway. I couldn't see him as perfect no matter how much brainwashing we got about that. I began to see a pattern of lying and subtle bullying. 
   Once when our mother caught him kissing a girl it enraged her because in order to be perfect for the NM you don't kiss a girl. Or even think about a girl. Or belong to anyone but her. He was grounded and we were told not to talk to him at all. He was so shunned and made fun of by the NM that he eventually complied. 
   Our family eventually fell apart. I think if it had stayed together, I might have been jealous of the GC. But I felt grief instead that we were pitted against each other causing massive damage to the family unit.
   
* I can understand that. I went around thinking something was wrong with my facial expressions, that perhaps they weren't doing what I wanted them to do. I was punished over facial expressions.
   The GC never was, so I thought he had perfect facial expressions.

* I think some of us don't feel jealous because we know that it is part of the game of narcs: crush your child's self esteem, install a great deal of injustice, play with the emotions of your children, do anything and everything to dominate and control them 100 percent and reject the ones who don't comply.

* I thought it was odd that I’ve never felt jealous or envious of anyone, especially the GC. It’s an emotion that I just cannot feel. Wonder why that is?
   Very inquisitive post! Interesting to read the comments.

* I have never even thought about this throughout my life. What I realise now is that the GC (my sister) has always been envious/jealous? What I realise is that I tried to make myself 'lost' and tried to do as little as I could to create attention. When I was young (primary age) on family holidays I used to walk along the beach for hours collecting shells. My GC sister got braces to make her teeth straight, got to go on a cruise with my mother when I was in my teens, got to go to uni. I never got these things but just didn't think about it. Years later she said to me in a phone call that she always thought I was 'the spoilt one'. That just simply wasn't true ... Cheers from Oz.

* My GC's life is filled with loneliness and abandonment. He was mean to everyone. Paid for it. NM loves him, uses him and likes it that he is cruel to others, but that is about it.

* It is hard not to feel those emotions. I am well aware I am going to be cut out of the Will. I was cut out of my grandmother's Will too. The two golden children have had financial benefits showered on them for 3 decades while I have struggled through intense poverty. Have I been some gross drug addict or criminal? No, just an ordinary person who was outspoken about the abuse.
   It's easy to say, like people do on tv shows sometimes "I don't want your dirty money!" A lot harder to do in person. I eventually made it and have my own family and house now but I have suffered for it.

* I think I did. Not even my birthday was celebrated my entire childhood while theirs were. But now everything has been taken away from me. Six siblings went against me. I wish they hurt as much as I do. I know it is wrong to be vengeful. But when I stop feeling vengeful and angry, I get close to taking my own life instead. I literally feel nothing but despair, anger, rage over the injustice, vengeful and wanting to die. In other words, no positive feelings at all. It's been months of this. I actually don't think I can make it like this. 
   I am sick of people who want to hurt other people. This world is too full of them for me.

Recommended reading of a more fleshed-out story of this phenomenon (personal story):

Sister Light, Sister Dark - by 500 Pound Peep